sound guy ignoring direct out on amp

[arai]

this thread

 

[HolmeBass]

Huh... that's a good idea. See, never thought of that.

Good idea b/c of the natural high-pass of the 57? It worked very well.

But I always thought the mic was for the highs, the "air", while the DI was for the lows and the meat. Anyway, as far as a given approach the actual execution is often as or more important than the plan.

 

[Phalex]

Or how about Fieldy with his super scooped sound?

Fieldy? Seriously?

I would take Fieldy out back by the dumpster and beat him with sock full of nickels.

Then, I'd probably set his bass up properly.........

 

[I am Soma]

Fieldy? Seriously?

I would take Fieldy out back by the dumpster and beat him with sock full of nickels.

Then, I'd probably set his bass up properly.........

i dont mind his tone...not anything id ever want but its made him a lot of $$ and when you hear it you know who it is which is more than i can say for most of us on TB

 

[bigchiefbc]

I'm talking about knowing there is a problem and taking the "sh*tty way out" by not saying anything, just smile and drool, rather than address it before it affects the show. When it fails during the show and saying it's the bass player's DI while all along knowing there was a problem is disrespectful to the rest of the band as well as the paying audience IMO.

I'm not talking about the tone, if the player wants a bright agressive tone that's what I will go with. I will try to duplicate in the PA what he is trying to get from the stage. I can't do this if there are technical problems that get in the way... like no signal and such.

The problem, though, is that many soundmen insist on bassists using their DI, pre-eq, pre-fx, ostensibly to avoid any potential "problems" with the equipment. But they don't take into account that they are essentially deciding the bassist's tone for him, and giving him no choice.

 

[agedhorse]

The problem, though, is that many soundmen insist on bassists using their DI, pre-eq, pre-fx, ostensibly to avoid any potential "problems" with the equipment. But they don't take into account that they are essentially deciding the bassist's tone for him, and giving him no choice.

Pre eq is not the problem, assuming the sound guy understands what the player is trying to achieve. With a (real) PA, the eq to get a particular sound is going to be night and day different because the speaker system is radically more capable (on the low end) and many players end up adding a lot of eq to make up for the bottom 1/2 octave that will be nothing like the capabilities of the 30-50Hz that I might have available with a bigger PA. Taking post eq gives me a lot of what may get in the way of me delivering what the player is trying to get on stage. Midrange voicing is something that the sound guy needs to listen to coming off of the stage and incorporate that approach into any eq he may need in FOH. Another really big difference is the PA is operating in a very different acoustic space, something that there may be way too much of on stage may not be an issue in the house at all so if the player eq's this out and I am taking post-eq then it's missing in my signal path.

Post effects is a different thing entirely, as is post eq where the player is understanding the interaction between the signal to the PA and the relationship on stage. This is true where an overdriven sound is used, where octavers are used, etc. In this case, it's really team work between the PA and the bass rig, but unfortunately ther eare a lot of players who do not grasp the importance of working with the FOH engineer as a team to get the best possible sound in the context of the mix and the acoustic space.

I typically work with higher end acts and a better than average PA, and most of these players are at a level where trust goes both ways. My most frustrating times are when a lower level a ct, with inexperienced players start tossing around attitude about sound guys and PA's and just about everything else. The do it my way or the highway from a (non-pro) bass player generally ends up being a train wreck on all accounts, just like the same attitude from a guitar player, drummer, vocalist, etc. If you find yourself working with a good sound guy, work WITH him and you might be surprised how much better sound you can get in FOH with both of youworking towards a common goal. If you have a bad sound guy, pre-eq might keep him from burying himself deeper than other options but it probably won't make much difference if he doesn't get it. At that point, damage control mode usually works best.

 

[bigchiefbc]

Pre eq is not the problem, assuming the sound guy understands what the player is trying to achieve. With a (real) PA, the eq to get a particular sound is going to be night and day different because the speaker system is radically more capable (on the low end) and many players end up adding a lot of eq to make up for the bottom 1/2 octave that will be nothing like the capabilities of the 30-50Hz that I might have available with a bigger PA. Taking post eq gives me a lot of what may get in the way of me delivering what the player is trying to get on stage. Midrange voicing is something that the sound guy needs to listen to coming off of the stage and incorporate that approach into any eq he may need in FOH. Another really big difference is the PA is operating in a very different acoustic space, something that there may be way too much of on stage may not be an issue in the house at all so if the player eq's this out and I am taking post-eq then it's missing in my signal path.

Post effects is a different thing entirely, as is post eq where the player is understanding the interaction between the signal to the PA and the relationship on stage. This is true where an overdriven sound is used, where octavers are used, etc. In this case, it's really team work between the PA and the bass rig, but unfortunately ther eare a lot of players who do not grasp the importance of working with the FOH engineer as a team to get the best possible sound in the context of the mix and the acoustic space.

I typically work with higher end acts and a better than average PA, and most of these players are at a level where trust goes both ways. My most frustrating times are when a lower level a ct, with inexperienced players start tossing around attitude about sound guys and PA's and just about everything else. The do it my way or the highway from a (non-pro) bass player generally ends up being a train wreck on all accounts, just like the same attitude from a guitar player, drummer, vocalist, etc. If you find yourself working with a good sound guy, work WITH him and you might be surprised how much better sound you can get in FOH with both of youworking towards a common goal. If you have a bad sound guy, pre-eq might keep him from burying himself deeper than other options but it probably won't make much difference if he doesn't get it. At that point, damage control mode usually works best.

I agree with a lot of what you just said, but I'm definitely not one of those guys who boosts the super-lows on my amp. I go for a pretty overdriven honky mid-range tone most of the time. Unfortunately, I've had sound guys insist on pre-EQ DI'ing me, and then end up turning my bass into a rumble and icepick mid-scooped tone (which I hate).

I'm certainly willing to work with soundguys, but I always make sure I let them know right at the start that I'm playing an all-tube amp cranked up into overdrive, so I really really want to mic if remotely possible. I have a good bass mic, and I have a power soak, so I can bring the stage volume down to whatever level they want. And I play with effects, and they're essential to more than half of the songs we play. As long as he's willing to entertain that those things are important to our sound as a band, then I'll do whatever I can to make it work for his system.

 

[agedhorse]

I agree with a lot of what you just said, but I'm definitely not one of those guys who boosts the super-lows on my amp. I go for a pretty overdriven honky mid-range tone most of the time. Unfortunately, I've had sound guys insist on pre-EQ DI'ing me, and then end up turning my bass into a rumble and icepick mid-scooped tone (which I hate).

I'm certainly willing to work with soundguys, but I always make sure I let them know right at the start that I'm playing an all-tube amp cranked up into overdrive, so I really really want to mic if remotely possible. I have a good bass mic, and I have a power soak, so I can bring the stage volume down to whatever level they want. And I play with effects, and they're essential to more than half of the songs we play. As long as he's willing to entertain that those things are important to our sound as a band, then I'll do whatever I can to make it work for his system.

A mic might be a good approach for your style. That's why I like to know about playing style and what you are trying to achieve. If I listened to you playing for 15 seconds, I might very well end up throwing say an ATM-25 or maybe a 421 on your cabinet and call it a day. It just depends...

 

[JimmyM]

Fieldy? Seriously?

I would take Fieldy out back by the dumpster and beat him with sock full of nickels.

Then, I'd probably set his bass up properly.........

Aw, poor Fieldy. Then again, he IS kind of obnoxious...I saw him give some kid who won a contest to direct a video the business just because he could. Freely admitted it, too.

 

[Jim C]

Alright, where's the last SM58... oh wait a minute, I really don't want to know the answer

Funny thing I just realized; I can't recall one band member or road manager ever apologizing for pouring beer in the monitors, throwing mics or stands to the floor, or for that matter ever saying sorry for being late.

Yet if you the sound man use the best tool in your toolbox to recreate a player's on stage sound, and, it involves using a DI instead of a feed from a questionable amp, you become the bad guy.

No good deed....

 

[Calaverasgrande]

A broken box is one thing, but what if it's not broken and you just don't like the sound of it? If a young Chris Squire came in to your club with his new band Yes in 1968, would you attempt to dial out the treble and add low end? Or how about Fieldy with his super scooped sound?

In other words, where does running sound end and editorializing on the musicians' chosen tones begin?

honestly it's a tricky balancing act.
I always saw my job as being a medium or intermediary between the band and the audience. My task was to get whatever they were trying to convey to the audience reproduced with as little adulteration.

Now of course when you do 5 bands a night 365 days a year you end up falling into habits. Nobody at any job does not do this.
But at least in terms of EQ I was/am in the "do no harm" camp.
Just because that big mixer has 300 knobs on it doesnt mean you have to use all of them on every band.

And once I found out how hot dogs are made (as far as how EQ works) I decided to only cut freqs, not boost them. That keeps stuff sounding more phase coherent and not harsh or muddy.

I will be honest, once or twice a few bands got a stick up their rear about an effect I used. Frankly, if you have a sax, there will be verb. Nobody want's to hear a sax coming out of a PA dry, it sounds like a circular saw. Also, if your band sounds like the Damned, you will get reverb all over the vocals. Don't like reverb, don't sound exactly like the Damned!

(sorry had some good coffee, feeling typey)

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Funny thing I just realized; I can't recall one band member or road manager ever apologizing for pouring beer in the monitors, throwing mics or stands to the floor, or for that matter ever saying sorry for being late.

Yet if you the sound man use the best tool in your toolbox to recreate a player's on stage sound, and, it involves using a DI instead of a feed from a questionable amp, you become the bad guy.

No good deed....

indeed, or the frontman who constantly shouts into his mic "Turn me up soundman!" when he is already at feedback inducing levels. I have been tempted to turn them up all the way in the monitors and kill the FOH. But I would never do that to an east coast hardcore band. They are so macho and frightening, and never playing here again.

 

[Pacman]

But at least in terms of EQ I was/am in the "do no harm" camp.
Just because that big mixer has 300 knobs on it doesnt mean you have to use all of them on every band.

This.

I recently saw Umphree's McGhee, and their engineer took me through their console. The band had 52 channels of audio coming off the deck to FOH. He used a grand total of 9 EQs. (9 channels had the EQ even engaged, and those tweaks were minor) Best damn sound guy I've ever encountered!

 

[AngelCrusher]

A broken box is one thing, but what if it's not broken and you just don't like the sound of it? If a young Chris Squire came in to your club with his new band Yes in 1968, would you attempt to dial out the treble and add low end? Or how about Fieldy with his super scooped sound?

In other words, where does running sound end and editorializing on the musicians' chosen tones begin?

I have honestly never heard of this stuff happening locally. My biggest problem was my sound guy on tour was a jerk and had "his" way of doing rock sound and that was that. Since I understood the pressure the guy was under each show and how much work the crew had to do. I never really sweated it. Also, it was rare that anyone said they could not hear my playing, so I didn't cause an issue.

Most sound guys doing local shows are just looking for a signal that is no too hot..the rest is gravy. That has been my experience at least, and I brought some pretty aggressive tones to the table when I was new to the scene.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

This.

I recently saw Umphree's McGhee, and their engineer took me through their console. The band had 52 channels of audio coming off the deck to FOH. He used a grand total of 9 EQs. (9 channels had the EQ even engaged, and those tweaks were minor) Best damn sound guy I've ever encountered!

Is he still using the Gamble foh setup?

 

[JimmyM]

I have honestly never heard of this stuff happening locally. My biggest problem was my sound guy on tour was a jerk and had "his" way of doing rock sound and that was that. Since I understood the pressure the guy was under each show and how much work the crew had to do. I never really sweated it. Also, it was rare that anyone said they could not hear my playing, so I didn't cause an issue.

Actually, these days it seems like I'm begging soundmen to turn the bass DOWN! I play 50's-60's-70's music with my main band, and it's just plain not mixed like today's music, yet so many soundmen insist on it, especially younger ones.

Most sound guys doing local shows are just looking for a signal that is no too hot..the rest is gravy. That has been my experience at least, and I brought some pretty aggressive tones to the table when I was new to the scene.

Most soundmen I know are looking for that too and don't care what you use. It's that other 20% that are the sticking point.

 

[BlackThursday]

My most frustrating times are when a lower level a ct, with inexperienced players start tossing around attitude about sound guys and PA's and just about everything else.

Well, there you go. It's possible that they'd never encountered a knowledgeable, talented, professional sound engineer before and just didn't know how to behave in the presence of one (especially after a long grueling tour in a filthy, dilapidated white van playing every Bob's Country Bunker between Kokomo and Klamath Falls). You were probably a career highlight.

 

[agedhorse]

Well, there you go. It's possible that they'd never encountered a knowledgeable, talented, professional sound engineer before and just didn't know how to behave in the presence of one (especially after a long grueling tour in a filthy, dilapidated white van playing every Bob's Country Bunker between Kokomo and Klamath Falls). You were probably a career highlight.

That kind of touring stops being fun about a hundred miles down the road eh?

 

[agedhorse]

Is he still using the Gamble foh setup?

The EX was quite a console... bits and pieces got woven into the Crest V-12 and such IIRC.

 

[BlackThursday]

That kind of touring stops being fun about a hundred miles down the road eh?

As the overarching theme of this thread suggests, it largely depends upon the individuals involved. With the right people (and at the right time in one's life) it can be the adventure of a lifetime.