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source audio c4
- Thread starter drewphishesp
- Start date
It seems that a lot of guys don't realise that not all of Source Audio One Series pedals need a Neuro Hub for midi. The EQ2 has both TRRS for the Hub and a pair of Mid 5 pin connectors. The larger units with dual DSP's also have this feature as well as expression 1/4" in. Ventris/Nemesis and Collider.
Now that the Neuro Hub is pretty much maxxed out after the full feature mapping of the C4 and Spectrum...I'm sure we'll see something different from SA as a type of replacement at some point.
- Apr 1, 2000
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- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
I'm seriously geeking on using my Helix to control my C4. The possibilities aren't *endless* but they're pretty close
Adamixoye
A PT Pro is cool for worship, right?
- Apr 9, 2012
- 18,158
- 69,338
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- Occasional Beta Tester for Confusion Studios, Singular Sound, and Source Audio
I'm pretty aware of the alternatives and stand by what I said.
I have my Nemesis on 5-Pin MIDI, that's preferred for me, though that's been giving me problems recently. The Nemesis likes to stop responding to MIDI. I've experienced similar things with the Hub before.
My personal experience with SA is that I love the sounds and flexibility but hate the MIDI. SA MIDI, in my experience, just doesn't work as reliably as pretty much any other brand that I've tried with regard to MIDI. (Panda Audio is the next worst, because I often have connection issues for the updater and/or editor. But the "live MIDI" of sending it commands works fine.)
I have a Hub for my Aftershock. No pedalboard-friendly alternatives there if I want presets.
I'm getting into the CME Pro WIDI Uhosts for my C4 and my eventual plan for an Ultrawave, and praying that they will work with SA. Trying to reduce what's on the Hub.
For me it was quite a surprise actually. I don't have any of the large SA pedals because I have a pair of Eventide H9's and I've not found the need for more delays or ambience. When I got my EQ2 with it's 5 pin midi din ports, it was first SA pedal on my board that isn't attached to my neuro hub. I've had some midi issues with it, which turned out to be a weird power ramping issue with my Strymon PSU's. For that particular pedal, I have to give it a reboot about 10 seconds after all the others. After that it's quite stable. I've found that the SA gear is more affected by power glitches than any of my other pedal brands. I find the the Neuro hub likes to be on midi Ch 1 to be happiest.
I used to get a lot of midi glitches with SA stuff, lockups and freezes. That was until I kicked my Strymon Mobius off my board and fitted a Quadra Thru box. Strymon seem to add a lot of artefacts to a midi signal. To program them over midi is very tedious and taxing compared to any other brand. All my SA gear is on one midi spur, Eventides on another, EHX on another. Since I've got a Faderfox PC4 (to add more live control to my SA pedals), I've put one of my H9's in the same SA Midi spur and it seems to be quite stable. I think my Boss ES-5 seems to work well with my SA gear's midi.
I get occasional lockups using the USB cable on my desktop using Neuro desktop...that's quite unstable. I have to start Neuro Desktop as an Admin every time, especially if I want to create backups or load backups. Sometimes Neuro doesn't shut down properly and I have to kill it off in task manager. As a piece of software it looks like it's got memory leaks to me. I just use it for scene management and patch creation. I find that when my SA pedals are attached to Neuro Desktop via USB, they seems to be more glitchy and need regular reboots, especially when they lock up with the Neuro Desktop. I can't work out if it's the pedals that lock and cause Neuro to freeze or the other way around.
I find my Aftershock is the least responsive with midi CC for some reason. It jumps a lot and doesn't track well with expression over midi cc. It's just not usable, where as my Lunar (same gen hardware) has no issues at all. These days I do my swells with my EQ2...which is great for that, very sensitive, reactive and low latency. However the best for Expression Midi CC responsiveness is the EHX Hog2. The Aftershock's midi map isn't great, there's no over all level or drive, only channel level or drive. There's also no way to call the 6 internal patches (Midi PC change) over midi, you can only change scenes on a neuro hub. You can send Midi CC to change the distortion model within a patch though, but then all the other internal dials need a re-dial in to make the patch work. The C4, Spectrum and Ultrawave seem to track Midi CC way better than my AS and (for me) seem a lot more stable. When I first got my Neuro Hub, I had to set it as Midi Ch 1 (it was the only way it worked back then) and I still keep it there. I've tried to change it a few times (and rewrite all my Boss ES-5 patches too) but it seems to behave better on ch1. Way less glitchy...so I leave it there. In perfect world (having an all Digital / all Midi pedal board) I would assign my Midi Channels in the same order as y pedal chain, just for simplicity. Unfortunately, that's not the case and with 11 midi channels associated, I have to keep a piece of paper to remind me of my loops, Midi Channels, power feeds and most used scenes/patches on my C4, Ultrawave and hub. If I need to make a new patch...out comes the paper work.
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The release date is January of 2022 according to the boss website. If it's not currently available I'd call it vaporware. I won't argue that point though. Thanks.
I think the vapourware argument stems from the observation that there are a number of enthusiastic and hopeful SY-200 fans (quite right too...) and their only contact / experience of this new pedal are the online promotional videos. However Jan 2022 is a long way off for the current weird global supply chain. I guess Boss aimed for early December release and unfortunately missed.
I still stand by my comment that the C4 has nothing to fear with the SY-200. They are different products that sit in a common market place but serve different users needs. For me, I was surprised to see a box full of pre-sets, but that's because I'm not really this pedals' target audience. For some one who gets frustrated by the C4's complexity, the SY-200 is obviously a way better fit. I hear that.
I often assume that everyone thinks like me and that I am a typical bloke...I'm not...lol...What i think is really really cool, others may think is just tedious and complicated. I get that...
Adamixoye
A PT Pro is cool for worship, right?
- Apr 9, 2012
- 18,158
- 69,338
- Disclosures
- Occasional Beta Tester for Confusion Studios, Singular Sound, and Source Audio
"Vaporware" technically means that a product is announced but only in the concept or development phase, and there is at least some degree of uncertainty whether it will see the light of day. I guess I was wrong about the timescale - and a little surprised by it, I feel like there wasn't that sort of delay in previous product, though we do have various supply shortages. But I'm fairly confident that the Boss products actually exist when they are announced (I can think of only one exception).
Adamixoye
A PT Pro is cool for worship, right?
- Apr 9, 2012
- 18,158
- 69,338
- Disclosures
- Occasional Beta Tester for Confusion Studios, Singular Sound, and Source Audio
Well just to reiterate what I said, my experience with other pedals is that MIDI Just Works and they Play Well With Others, and this just isn't the case with SA. I put up with it for the flexibility and quality of the sounds, but the MIDI is a frustration. Just consider a few things:
- Hub freezing on MIDI overload - I'm not the only one to experience this problem, and now it's happening with my Nemesis
- Hub preferring to be on Channel 1 - I've never owned another device that needed to be on a particular channel, partially defeating the purpose of channels to begin with
- Needing to be early in the chain - you mentioned the issue with your Mobius, I had a similar issue with what I think I narrowed down to my Boss SY-300. SA made the claim other pedals (presumably the Boss or your Mobius) aren't adhering to the MIDI spec, but it doesn't seem to bother any other pedals that I'm aware of. It seems like other companies have found ways to more successfully deal with chaotic MIDI environments.
- I don't know if Neuro Desktop or the app are really fair to count as part of the MIDI discussion (it's not MIDI communication to the best of my knowledge), but I've seen bugginess there as well.
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I hear you bud. I've had a bumpy road with Midi too, not just with SA pedals / hubs.
I think I'm grateful that manufacturers are adhering to the Midi format / standard. Can you imagine the chaos and headache if these devices all used non-propriety standards? I think that Strymon seems to add a lot of Strymon unique data junk / noise to their midi thru ports. My Eventide H9's seem to be the best in that regard. My EXH Hog 2 is a no brainer...it's only got a Midi in port...hence the need for a Quadra Thru box. A lot of my Midi glitches disappeared when I stopped the long daisy chains of mixed brand devices. That said, I find that my SA hub into my H9's seems to work well. But only if the hub is on Channel 1...and on one of the out puts from the Quadra Thru.
Sometimes a little envious of the HX Stomp or GT-1000 Core users, a neat one box solution...until I hear their octaver or dirt options (my opinion please don't be offended)...and then I know my choices of kit really covered the best ground and I'm quite happy again. If I went single box solution, I would end up with additional C4, Aftershock, H9 and Collider pedals too and then I'm back to square one again.
It feels like the old hifi argument: simplicity of an integrated unit vs the features and sound quality of mix and match separates.
I've just integrated a FaderFox PC4 into my rig...it's a bit of a head ache too. It seems it shares a similar undocumented problem I've encountered with the SA Neuro hub, it doesn't like powered Midi devices. My Boss ES-5 throws out powered Midi (5v) through the 5 pin mini ports. This means that the midi Solutions Quadra Thru gets it's power from the midi 5 pin port. If the input 5 pin socket doesn't have +5 to one of the pins...the Quadra doesn't work. However, both the Faderfox PC4 and SA Neuro Hub block this 5v signal and can't reproduce it. So If I put the Hub or the Faderfox devices on the input side of my Quadra...no midi comes out of the Quadra.
So what can I say about this issue? It's not Faderfox or Source Audio's fault that they chose to make their midi ports non powered. It's not an adherence issue, it's just a useful approach that some brands are using. I think it's an irritating oversight on Faderfox and SA's part. It's likely to causes signal degradation problems when you have a lot of midi devices cascaded. It means I can't connect my Hub or faderfox to the input of my Quadra. No one makes a 2 into 1 Midi merge with a 4 Thru output box...I should be so lucky. My only solutions are buy a different Thru box that has an external power source, or get a powered Midi merge box that sits in front of the Quadra...yet another box to find space for....why can't all this stuff just work....oh yes...it's the best attempt at a standard we've got.
I've owned an HX Stomp, a Helix LT, and for years I ran a Zoom MS60b into a B3n as my board. Then the Spectrum came out, and I was ruined. The sounds in it are amazing, and have changed my bass world. I haven't even cracked the UltraWave yet. It's just a really cool compressor right now, but I know once I get in there, my mind will be blown again! For me, the simplicity of three SA pedals and a Hub into a nice passive DI, will do everything I could possibly want.
rsmith601
Commercial User
- Apr 14, 2009
- 4,461
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- CEO and Co-Founder, Source Audio
We always thought that MIDI is a low data rate and designed with that in mind. However, some pedals send info in busts that far exceed the data rate expected. Lesson learned.
Hello, have one of these in the post, just scanning the manual and wonder if anyone would be good enough to tell me...
Page 30/31 of the manual on LFO, looks like there's a button which I'd imagine (and hope) toggles between LFO speed via MIDI or internally, but the description below doesn't say what it does. It leaves me wondering if it just lights up when MIDI clock is there, hence giving you no way to override it should you want to.
So does anyone know if it's an indicator or a toggle button please?
Cheers.
Page 30/31 of the manual on LFO, looks like there's a button which I'd imagine (and hope) toggles between LFO speed via MIDI or internally, but the description below doesn't say what it does. It leaves me wondering if it just lights up when MIDI clock is there, hence giving you no way to override it should you want to.
So does anyone know if it's an indicator or a toggle button please?
Cheers.
Another thing I'm wondering though, if it sees MIDI clock via USB and a connected Neuro Hub, which does it prefer?
Gibs210
Commercial User
- Aug 31, 2019
- 850
- 875
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- Part time Tech Support for Source Audio effects
Neither, Only send clock from one source, multiple sources will cause big problems.
Thanks @Gibs210.
I've got clock coming partly successfuly from a Boss RC-10R into the LFOs.
Problem is, it's always a few BPM off in an inconsistent way.
I've tried the same thing with a HX Stomp, same results.
Driving me nuts.
Not sure if it's the clock sources or the C4 - is this normal or should it be bang on what I see on the RC-10R or Stomp?
I've got clock coming partly successfuly from a Boss RC-10R into the LFOs.
Problem is, it's always a few BPM off in an inconsistent way.
I've tried the same thing with a HX Stomp, same results.
Driving me nuts.
Not sure if it's the clock sources or the C4 - is this normal or should it be bang on what I see on the RC-10R or Stomp?
- May 16, 2007
- 3,395
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- Volunteer developer/beta tester with Source Audio, Morningstar Engineering & MORTRIX
C4 response to clock is a bit erratic. I reported it to Jesse last year when doing some other MIDI testing. He’s had a lot on his plate so hasn’t got around to it.
Can't lie, I have been looking into the SY-200 since it came across my radar. I enjoyed the SY-1 I had, and only got rid of it for the C4 because it didn't have presets. Since I've got the C4, I have enjoyed the presets I've downloaded from the community, but have had trouble creating my own and getting midi to work. Not the fault of the equipment, that's on me. I haven't invested the time needed to get what I want out of the pedal, for various reasons.
I'll be looking to the SY-200 as a supplement to my C4. The SY-1 already had a bunch of settings I liked, and with the switching functioning built in, I don't have to do external switching. I've also found that I'm part of the market that doesn't have the need for the ultra-tweakable synth, "good enough" is good enough. I mainly gig in a church, most people there can't even tell what I'm playing except knowing the walls are moving.
While I have that, I can spend more time with the C4 and learning to fix the midi issues. I'll still be enjoying the C4 as a "one thing at a time" box. It's still the best octave down pedal I have used, and I'm sure I'll come across a ton more functions for it I like. If anything, I'm fairly sure that getting the SY-200 is going to push me to dig deeper into the C4 when I come across something that is almost right, but not quite. Just like how the EXH Mel9 caused me to start down this rabbit hole of making my bass sound like anything else, I think the Boss pedals are going to be a good fit for a fair number of people, and a gateway for people looking to get more out of their pedal. For those people, I think the C4 is pretty much the definitive state of the art, at least in pedal world.
I'll be looking to the SY-200 as a supplement to my C4. The SY-1 already had a bunch of settings I liked, and with the switching functioning built in, I don't have to do external switching. I've also found that I'm part of the market that doesn't have the need for the ultra-tweakable synth, "good enough" is good enough. I mainly gig in a church, most people there can't even tell what I'm playing except knowing the walls are moving.
While I have that, I can spend more time with the C4 and learning to fix the midi issues. I'll still be enjoying the C4 as a "one thing at a time" box. It's still the best octave down pedal I have used, and I'm sure I'll come across a ton more functions for it I like. If anything, I'm fairly sure that getting the SY-200 is going to push me to dig deeper into the C4 when I come across something that is almost right, but not quite. Just like how the EXH Mel9 caused me to start down this rabbit hole of making my bass sound like anything else, I think the Boss pedals are going to be a good fit for a fair number of people, and a gateway for people looking to get more out of their pedal. For those people, I think the C4 is pretty much the definitive state of the art, at least in pedal world.
I'm running into an issue I could use some guidance on. Currently have an EHX Hog2 on my board, and I am looking to downsize. I don't use half of what that thing can do, and I am thinking that the C4 and a smaller octaver could do what I am really looking to use it for. I like the fifth up, so I will probably be looking at a Quint for the pitch shifting, but that leaves me looking for my two favorite pieces of the EHX pitch shifting - the attack and LP filter sliders.
I am pretty sure that from what I have read, the C4 could do both, potentially at the same time. I found a Slow Gear patch that I downloaded, but I got lost in trying to adjust it. Would anyone be able to give some tips on what I should be tweaking for each of those two settings, or point me in the direction of some good resources?
I am pretty sure that from what I have read, the C4 could do both, potentially at the same time. I found a Slow Gear patch that I downloaded, but I got lost in trying to adjust it. Would anyone be able to give some tips on what I should be tweaking for each of those two settings, or point me in the direction of some good resources?
