source audio c4

[Adamixoye]

I don't really thing it matters what a "real" synth pedal is supposed to be. The boss gets you there faster without the steep learning curve.

The SY200 is what I wanted out of the SY1 - programability & presets. The C4 is just too much tinkering looking for sounds, so much so that the majority of people rely on the community but many times the community offerings aren't close enough. Demos of cool sounds are all fine and good but those unique sounds are not applicable to anything.

I don't understand why the C4 out of the box doesn't have "the basics" that can be used across a lot of music instantly. The SY1 has that. Now the SY200 has what was missing. Even now the SY1 has a simple method of sustaining notes. I am finding less and less reasons to keep the C4.

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[bassbrad]

I don't really thing it matters what a "real" synth pedal is supposed to be. The boss gets you there faster without the steep learning curve.

The SY200 is what I wanted out of the SY1 - programability & presets. The C4 is just too much tinkering looking for sounds, so much so that the majority of people rely on the community but many times the community offerings aren't close enough. Demos of cool sounds are all fine and good but those unique sounds are not applicable to anything.

I don't understand why the C4 out of the box doesn't have "the basics" that can be used across a lot of music instantly. The SY1 has that. Now the SY200 has what was missing. Even now the SY1 has a simple method of sustaining notes. I am finding less and less reasons to keep the C4.

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IMHO they are really two different kinds of tools, I really don't understand why you have to go about with your bashing. What you are doing it trying to complain that a pair of pliers is not as good as a socket wrench when they are two different tools altogether but can in some cases in skilled hands be used for some of the same chores.

While I certainly appreciate what you are getting at and the value of the Boss, EHX and other synth pedal offerings with presets of popular and standard sounds - those from Source Audio and Panda MIDI offer musicians creative tools that were in the past only available to keyboard or modular synth players. The fact that Source Audio & Panda have put so much into developing a brilliant devices and software that gives us the ability to create, explore and express is a huge value that you are far too easily disparaging and dismissing. Considering that they have packed the hardware in a pedal we cal take on stage for recall and excellent fidelity and reliability is even more impressive. Please remember that Source Audio is a small independent company of dedicated musicians and engineers intent on giving musicians the very best products possible at highly competitive prices.
Boss is a large corporation with hundreds if not thousands of engineers and developers and a wide range of products including keyboard synthesis so it is very easy for them to access those popular sounds for their preset pedals.
Plus they also spent more than a year longer then Source Audio or Panda MIDI.

Just trying to keep things in perspective.

 

[Wretched Banana]

@Modulus 96 beat me to it when I was drafting this, but yeah, unfortunately the usability issue is very real and that's why technically far inferior Boss products can successfully exist in the market. I too have moved all of my SA gear (C4, EQ2, Aftershock) to the recording studio where they really shine, and on my board is the BOSS EQ-200 and a couple of traditional distortions. My second pedalboard C4 and DMC mini will be listed by tomorrow because I don't want to use them on the stage and they are sitting there brand new (PM me if interested, but Boston area local pick up only).

(The Boss SY-series pedals sound terrible on bass in my opinion, so no synth replacement for me, but that's another story...)

In any case, I put on my engineering hat and all SA products are technical marvels, huge respect. But when I wear my performer bandana (don't qualify for a hat yet) there is so much room for improvement. I think it's important to point out these concerns in a constructive manner. It's useful feedback for the team, and the output will be useful for us.

 

[rsmith601]

I don't really thing it matters what a "real" synth pedal is supposed to be. The boss gets you there faster without the steep learning curve.

The SY200 is what I wanted out of the SY1 - programability & presets. The C4 is just too much tinkering looking for sounds, so much so that the majority of people rely on the community but many times the community offerings aren't close enough. Demos of cool sounds are all fine and good but those unique sounds are not applicable to anything.

I don't understand why the C4 out of the box doesn't have "the basics" that can be used across a lot of music instantly. The SY1 has that. Now the SY200 has what was missing. Even now the SY1 has a simple method of sustaining notes. I am finding less and less reasons to keep the C4.

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I think it boils down to the sounds that you are seeking at this point. The SY does not create certain waveforms cleanly (most notably, square, and sawtooth). For some this is fine and for some it is not.

Now that there are over 1000 Neuro presets for the C4, it is an interesting challenge for us to think about a next generation hardware platform that gives access to all of this in a very intuitive matter. A huge library of sounds is a hard problem to solve. Creating simple access on a pedal is much easier.

 

[sunbeast]

I don't really thing it matters what a "real" synth pedal is supposed to be. The boss gets you there faster without the steep learning curve.

The SY200 is what I wanted out of the SY1 - programability & presets. The C4 is just too much tinkering looking for sounds, so much so that the majority of people rely on the community but many times the community offerings aren't close enough. Demos of cool sounds are all fine and good but those unique sounds are not applicable to anything.

I don't understand why the C4 out of the box doesn't have "the basics" that can be used across a lot of music instantly. The SY1 has that. Now the SY200 has what was missing. Even now the SY1 has a simple method of sustaining notes. I am finding less and less reasons to keep the C4.

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I think they are just very different approaches to what may get you into similar sounds. The C4 is particularly designed to appeal to people who would enjoy working with a modular synth, which if you’ve ever used one is a tweaker’s paradise but often a nightmare for someone who loves to get the same thing twice- it is fertile ground for exploration. The beauty of the C4 is that you can build a sound that suits your needs then save it, which isn’t possible in most truly modular gear. I don’t see how the presets in the Boss pedal are any different fundamentally than the community presets in the C4- only that maybe you subjectively prefer the Boss sounds. Certainly the Boss does some things that the C4 can’t and vice-versa, and the Boss likely has all of its presets “normalized” to one consistent input level but perhaps lacks the same degree of dynamic control as a byproduct. You could literally just burn all the Nathan Navarro patches and fill up the rest of the C4 with other top community patches and you would then have a whole pedal of subjectively-useable presets just like the Boss unit. I can imagine the combo of the two would be extra powerful- it’s kinda hard to imagine that any single synth pedal could “do it all”, anymore than any single keyboard synth could and usually things that try too hard to fill every niche are the ones that fail to create their own.

 

[Gsnorgathon]

...A huge library of sounds is a hard problem to solve. ...

But a good problem to have!

 

[rsmith601]

But a good problem to have!

I meant to say that creating a library of 1000 presets is an insanely difficult challenge. Creating a pedal to easily access those sounds, or a subset, is relatively simple. You are right, either way!

 

[Modulus 96]

I meant to say that creating a library of 1000 presets is an insanely difficult challenge. Creating a pedal to easily access those sounds, or a subset, is relatively simple. You are right, either way!

Sorry, but difficult for whom? If I'm not mistaken, the community over time has done this for you.

But anyway, 1000 presets, from my perspective so what? Most are useless. I guess maybe that quantity means something to some people but for some it's means nothing. Out of that 1000 the majority are in effect noise generators, subtly different from the previous noise generator preset. There may as well be a small handful of presets as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Annette]

Sorry, but difficult for whom? If I'm not mistaken, the community over time has done this for you.

But anyway, 1000 presets, from my perspective so what? Most are useless. I guess maybe that quantity means something to some people but for some it's means nothing. Out of that 1000 the majority are in effect noise generators, subtly different from the previous noise generator preset. There may as well be a small handful of presets as far as I'm concerned.

Let's see, with the C4 we have the possibility to use the following building blocks in any combination:

• tremolo (at least 10 very distinct ones, depending on their waveform)
• just the dirts (at least 10 pretty different ones)
  
• auto Filters (at least 25 very different sounding ones, if you know how to dial them in)
• LFO filters (at least 10x25 different ones)
• choruses
• phasers
• monophonic synthesized sounds (at least 3 because sine, saw, square; and those 3 times at least times 3 in terms of octaves more commonly used on bass)
• polyphonic sounds (I can't no don't want to do the exact math because it's been too long, but since you could have 2-4 voices and those in various combinations of sine, square, saw, dry etc. AND with different octaves or other intervallic relations...gosh, so many)
• FM
• microtonal detuning

I know I have published around 10 different envelope filter presets and a couple tremolo ones, and then a few other presets that use more than just one of the building blocks and are as such very different from one another.
And after having gone through the presets published by the community during the first few months after pedal release and saving about 70 very different presets to my hub, I am flabbergasted that anyone would insist that there were just a small handful distinct presets. Yes, a lot of presets out there are duplicates or not immediately usable with every bass. But, "a small handful"? Nah.
And what does "'the basics' that can be used across a lot of music instantly" even mean?
I haven't been active in this thread for a while but seeing an argumentative post like this makes me really wonder what the purpose of it is; so I couldn't resist arguing back.
If you already own a C4, you might want to do yourself a favour and give the cloud presets another try.

 

[sillyfabe]

I use a DMC-Micro with 128 presets and they are ALL used. Even have them in 12 categories with 11 (10) and 12th (8). Have lots of goodness and have even more in the library. Fat analog, EDM/Acid, Deep Bass, Fuzz-Synth, FM, Sequencers and more!

 

[rsmith601]

Sorry, but difficult for whom? If I'm not mistaken, the community over time has done this for you.

But anyway, 1000 presets, from my perspective so what? Most are useless. I guess maybe that quantity means something to some people but for some it's means nothing. Out of that 1000 the majority are in effect noise generators, subtly different from the previous noise generator preset. There may as well be a small handful of presets as far as I'm concerned.

@Annette and @sillyfabe have addressed the utility of lots of presets developed by lots of people. No single pedal company, not even Boss, have all the sound design depth that is out there in the world. There are many folks who could easily work for us, but they don't for a range of reasons. We have created a tool to enable scores of folks with sound-design talent who would otherwise not be creating sounds to be shared.

Now for the other point. Yes, it has been a huge body of work for our community to create presets. You are right about that. What may not be obvious, however, is the massive amount of work and investment required to create the set of tools necessary to do what Neuro does.
1) Pedals must be designed from the ground up with the consideration that there will be user-accessible editor. On our original Neuro pedals it was limited to adding more parameters and more effect types than what was on the top. Over time, it has become a ground-up sound construction workstation approach. The C4, the Ultrawave, and the EQ2 are the best current examples, and we have a really great one under development now. In the old days we could just let Bob create on his own. Now, we must work as a big team to consider the editing experience at every stage of the pedal development. This aspect alone doubles the development time of a new pedal.
2) The editor creation work is also really difficult. I recruited Jesse to co-found the company with me, because he wrote the Sigma Studio DSP editing software that has become the standard tool user by EVERY Analog Devices DSP user. Consider that every pedal company using ADI DSP are using Jesse's editing tools. That includes all pedal companies using SHARC, BlackFin, and TigerSHARC. Jesse's Neuro Editors take what would otherwise be unusable by the community and makes it intuitive and fun. We not only need to do this once for Mac and PC, but then we need to do it all over 2 more times for the phone interface on Android and iPhone.
3) The cloud-based Neuro database is also difficult. I can access this on my phone, my computer via editor, and via any web browser. This seems like it should be a simple aspect in this day and age, but I am the one who oversaw and paid for it, so I can tell you there is a reason its one of maybe 2 of its kind in the whole pedal world; its really difficult. Just for fun, I just created a sort of the C4 presets ranked by "likes". There are now over 2000 sounds. Here it is: Neuro Community by Source Audio
4) Our investment in software development is now almost as big as all of our other engineering investments combined (hardware, firmware, algorithms/DSP code).

So, all of this is to say that is has been really, really difficult to create pedals like the C4 that have an ecosystem of user sound creation and sharing. I did just throw that comment out there without much explanation. Hopefully this makes it all clear!

 

[GMC]

Sorry, but difficult for whom? If I'm not mistaken, the community over time has done this for you.

But anyway, 1000 presets, from my perspective so what? Most are useless. I guess maybe that quantity means something to some people but for some it's means nothing. Out of that 1000 the majority are in effect noise generators, subtly different from the previous noise generator preset. There may as well be a small handful of presets as far as I'm concerned.

You seem to be in a rather negative space at the moment and appear to be somewhat disgruntled. May I point out that my own C4 is loaded with 6 excellent patches that I consider super-useful and my go to's. The C4's OC-2 sound is top drawer and lets face it...the Source Audio brought the first credible digital representation of an OC-2...a sound that's been on a massive list of hit records, a sound that defined Peter Gabriel / Tony Levin and Pino Palladino. if you can't find those patches then I would say that you didn't look very far.
Then there's the massive list of filters, xerograph, mutron, MXR, bass balls...they are all there and as far as I can hear, indistinguishable from the source pedals but with the added flexibility of digital / midi control. In terms of synths, go and look up the patches from the likes of Quatschmacher and Proton Lenny.
Quatscmacher created a Double bass patch that is an awesome and very usable real world patch that works fantastically well, it uses FM Synthesis by the way, although I suspect this concept will be lost on you. Proton Lenny can show you a range of great synth sounds, even the classic Blade Runner lead sound that defined and influenced a generation of synth heads.
Only the other day over on the Ultrawave page of this forum a question was asked about the abilities of the compressor. The reponce was a tailored patch created and posted for him and others to try based on his needs. That's how a COMMUNITY works. Not crying /venting that the C4 pedal editor was overly complicated for you or that Boss has announced a pedal with a turny knob with only 12 "great" presets that sounded impressive in the press youtube bundle. You present like a whiney millenial who wants tight jeans, lumberjack shirt and everything quick and easily accessible in their iphones. I can't imagine Steevie Wonder ever asking for a big 12 position turny pre-set knob to find his sounds that he's working on for his next big hit.
For me, the C4's editor was a huge learning exercise becuase I had no background in sound synthesis. That ignorance needed educating and went a learned how synthesisers work. Words like Moog, Oberheim, Prophet come ot mind. For others, there's the very large repository of other people's free work. Every one of them will need tweaking for your bass and needs.
You say that most of the 1000's of patches are mostly junk...I would say that you didn't look very hard...geeze there was even a month of awards / freebies to make the best patches that parralled songs. Everything from Madonna to Daft Punk was represented. Very strong and usable patches.

 

[Max Bogosity]

You guys are talking past each other.

“It’s hard to use.”
“But it’s got a lot of stuff.”
“But I can’t find anything.”
“But it has everything.”

Both true, but neither one really addresses the other.

 

[SumOne]

I'm a big fan of SA pedals but adding a small number counter screen to scroll through Preset numbers (like the Future Impact or Boss RC3) or even better - a small screen to do that and some basic editing (like the Zoom pedals) would make them excellent. There are things like the DMC pedals or going the neuro hub + midi controller route but the cost and real estate start getting quite big.

 

[benevan]

I think the SY200 addresses a lot of issues that people have pointed out with the C4 - onboard editing (without need for an app/PC), display screen, etc. There are a LOT of players that don't want to mess with an app/PC editor, even if that means limitations with what the effect unit is capable of. Whether or not the sounds from the SY200 are any good - especially with bass - remain to be seen.

 

[rsmith601]

I'm a big fan of SA pedals but adding a small number counter screen to scroll through Preset numbers (like the Future Impact or Boss RC3) or even better - a small screen to do that and some basic editing (like the Zoom pedals) would make them excellent. There are things like the DMC pedals or going the neuro hub + midi controller route but the cost and real estate start getting quite big.

Yes, I was actually addressing this point when we got sidetracked. We agree that the current One Series hardware interface has outgrown what Neuro has become. I was noting that creating an updated hardware design to address the shortcomings is relatively easy compared to what has already been created by us and the community. Jesse and I have actually been working on this for the last year already.
With that said, the new hardware will not be as small and it will not be at the same price point. I think there will be a place for both. Small and simple vs a bit larger and more on-board stuff.

 

[sillyfabe]

I'm a big fan of SA pedals but adding a small number counter screen to scroll through Preset numbers (like the Future Impact or Boss RC3) or even better - a small screen to do that and some basic editing (like the Zoom pedals) would make them excellent. There are things like the DMC pedals or going the neuro hub + midi controller route but the cost and real estate start getting quite big.

Cost: (new)
C4: 239.99
DMC-Micro: 129.99
Cable from C4-DMC:9.99
Taxes and Shipping? 30
Total 240+130+20+30=420.

Thats for all the flexibility of a EuroRqck without the million wires and all in one package. Easy to edit, upload and even as mentioned the community support is second to none.


As for the real estate……

That is smaller than a typical Dunlop Wah about 1 1/3 Boss Pedals in Length with the width of 1 Boss.

WIN

WIN

WIN

/drop the mic

@rsmith601 thank you l, Jesse, Source Audio and the community for an amazing product. This is all in my words.

 

[SumOne]

Yes, I was actually addressing this point when we got sidetracked. We agree that the current One Series hardware interface has outgrown what Neuro has become. I was noting that creating an updated hardware design to address the shortcomings is relatively easy compared to what has already been created by us and the community. Jesse and I have actually been working on this for the last year already.
With that said, the new hardware will not be as small and it will not be at the same price point. I think there will be a place for both. Small and simple vs a bit larger and more on-board stuff.

That's excellent news!

 

[Al Krow]

I'm a big fan of SA pedals but adding a small number counter screen to scroll through Preset numbers (like the Future Impact or Boss RC3) or even better - a small screen to do that and some basic editing (like the Zoom pedals) would make them excellent. There are things like the DMC pedals or going the neuro hub + midi controller route but the cost and real estate start getting quite big.

A decent on-pedal screen (e.g. on a par with the current Boss series pedals) and everything "under one bonnet" so that the pedal becomes standalone in terms of being able to make the most of its potential, without recourse to bolt-ons, are very much what many of us have been waiting for...

Yes, I was actually addressing this point when we got sidetracked. We agree that the current One Series hardware interface has outgrown what Neuro has become. I was noting that creating an updated hardware design to address the shortcomings is relatively easy compared to what has already been created by us and the community. Jesse and I have actually been working on this for the last year already.
With that said, the new hardware will not be as small and it will not be at the same price point. I think there will be a place for both. Small and simple vs a bit larger and more on-board stuff.

...so this is brilliant news!

Is the aim to have the new gear ready for launch at NAMM 2022?
In terms of a larger footprint, are you thinking Boss 200 series size?

 

[jurberg]

Sorry, but difficult for whom? If I'm not mistaken, the community over time has done this for you.

But anyway, 1000 presets, from my perspective so what? Most are useless. I guess maybe that quantity means something to some people but for some it's means nothing. Out of that 1000 the majority are in effect noise generators, subtly different from the previous noise generator preset. There may as well be a small handful of presets as far as I'm concerned.

I play on a worship team and we usually have a song every month or so that needs a basic analog bass synth (think Moog Phatty). I had previously been using a Roland GR-55, which I got to avoid having to learn synths and keyboards. I was only using a synth bass patch so I got a C4 to downsize what I had to carry around (I can now fit everything I need in my bass case). I was quickly overwhelmed with all the options and was not able to find a preset from the community that sounded right to me. I tried a few but was unable to get anything usable by blindly fiddling with options. I also found I could not edit existing patches using mobile app, it could only create new ones and burn them. This could have been user error on my part, but it made it impossible to make modifications at the gig.

So over my last vacation, I read a book on subtractive synths. That opened the pedal up to me. I was able to quickly put together an excellent patch that was close to an analog bass synth and the sound guys loved it.

After reading that book, I did end up buying a Novation Bass Station so I could make more adjustments on the fly, but I'm not going to get rid of the C4 because of all the other options I can use with my bass.

So in my experience, this may not be the pedal for you if you're just looking for a synth pedal with some pre-built synth patches. But if you understand synths, this is an amazing pedal.

I would be curious if the mobile app can actually edit existing patches. That would be an extremely useful tool to adjust a patch live (beyond what can be assigned to the option dials).