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Source Audio Sorcerers Society (S.A.S.S) Part 3

#4,621
I found a problem a while back with sending multiple MIDI messages. If more than 1 of them is directed to the hub (i.e. a channel that the hub is listening to), it needed about half a second between messages in order to do both of them. I haven't had any problems with sending multiple MIDI commands to separate devices on separate channels, though. Hub has passed thru everything and responded to its own channel.
 
#4,623
pbfrog said:
I found a problem a while back with sending multiple MIDI messages. If more than 1 of them is directed to the hub (i.e. a channel that the hub is listening to), it needed about half a second between messages in order to do both of them. I haven't had any problems with sending multiple MIDI commands to separate devices on separate channels, though. Hub has passed thru everything and responded to its own channel.
Click to expand...
There's only one message directed at the Hub, but something like what you saw is probably happening here too.
 
#4,625
I'd like to pass on my findings on using the Hub in a more complex system, and the excellent advice I got from Source Audio support:

To sum it up it helps if you minimize the work the Hub has to do since it is a bit limited in performance and functionality in terms of MIDI messaging:

- Avoid the Hub's MIDI Thru, or I should say just don't use it.
- If you have to use Thru then send Hub commands last in a batch so it can ignore and pass thru messages on other channels before getting occupied with handling its own message.
- Disable MIDI clock if you don't need it.
- If some unit is continuously sending Active Sense messages (the ES-8 and other Boss/Roland products do) then disable that function or filter the messages if you can. I'll put a Midi Solutions merge box, using only one input, after the ES-8 since it filters out Active Sense.

Kudos to Source Audio for quick and knowledgeable support! :thumbsup:

This the likely final configuration:

image_1.png
 
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#4,627
Nic. said:
@FretNoMore that is a ridiculous chain! How do you handle it?
Click to expand...
Well, I honestly don't know yet since it's just now coming together. :)

But, I'll approach it like I did with my smaller digital board; I dial in sounds as presets in each pedal (or scene in the SA SB2 case) and then combine them in different ways as patches in the ES-8. The difference is the massive options compared to the smaller setup - I could combine 3 channels/presets into one program using the Disaster Area controller, with the ES-8 each patch can call up 8 program changes and on top of that the pedal order can change per patch. Endless possibilities.

That picture also only shows the MIDI chain; there is analog expression from the ES-8, the EHX 8-Step and the Reflex pedals as well, adding expression control for non-MIDI pedals.

I see many fun hours tinkering with sounds in the future, producing nothing useful. :laugh:
 
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#4,629
pbfrog said:
So it was similar to my issue. Interesting. Fortunately, I don't have that many MIDI devices in use (yet, never can tell). Just the SA stuff and a Mobius. You can run the Nemesis through the hub now.
Click to expand...
I've decided not to connect the Nemesis to the Hub but let it have its own MIDI channel. Scenes are nice but they also introduce dependencies between pedals which complicates making presets.
 
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#4,631
FretNoMore said:
I'd like to pass on my findings on using the Hub in a more complex system, and the excellent advice I got from Source Audio support:

To sum it up it helps if you minimize the work the Hub has to do since it is a bit limited in performance and functionality in terms of MIDI messaging:

- Avoid the Hub's MIDI Thru, or I should say just don't use it.
- If you have to use Thru then send Hub commands last in a batch so it can ignore and pass thru messages on other channels before getting occupied with handling its own message.
- Disable MIDI clock if you don't need it.
- If some unit is continuously sending Active Sense messages (the ES-8 and other Boss/Roland products do) then disable that function or filter the messages if you can. I'll put a Midi Solutions merge box, using only one input, after the ES-8 since it filters out Active Sense.

Kudos to Source Audio for quick and knowledgeable support! :thumbsup:

This the likely final configuration:

image_1.png
Click to expand...

So is "MIDI Merge" the two input MIDI Solutions box or something else? And does the Quadra Merge actual filter things out?
 
#4,632
Adamixoye said:
So is "MIDI Merge" the two input MIDI Solutions box or something else? And does the Quadra Merge actual filter things out?
Click to expand...
"MIDI Merge" is actually an old Anatek PocketMerge I had in a drawer since years back. It does not filter anything, but the MIDI Solutions merge boxes do remove Active Sense messages.

From their FAQ web page:

Q: Do any of the MIDI Solutions products filter active sensing messages?

A: We have found that the problems introduced by active sensing outweigh its benefits, therefore all MIDI Solutions products (except Thru boxes and the Power Adapter) filter active sensing messages.


I would think it's MIDI beat clock that's the main issue though since it produces many more messages than Active Sense but I thought it would be good to remove anything that's not useful from the MIDI bus.
 
#4,633
More experimenting and a new finding regarding my Hub and MIDI problems:

When sending a batch of PCs on various channels from a patch in the ES-8 it looks like the trick is

- Don't use the Hub's Thru (because units after the Hub may not respond)
- Send the Hub's PC first (it doesn't respond with the PC later in the batch)

Getting closer to having everything work at the same time. :)
 
#4,634
FretNoMore said:
More experimenting and a new finding regarding my Hub and MIDI problems:

When sending a batch of PCs on various channels from a patch in the ES-8 it looks like the trick is

- Don't use the Hub's Thru (because units after the Hub may not respond)
- Send the Hub's PC first (it doesn't respond with the PC later in the batch)

Getting closer to having everything work at the same time. :)
Click to expand...


Admittedly, my MIDI chain is much simpler than yours, but I've had no problems using the Hub's MIDI through to change patches on my Line 6 M5. I tried using the M5's MIDI out into the Hub, and it didn't work... might've been a setting on the M5 that was wrong, not sure. If I'm totally misunderstanding the explanation you're giving, forgive me. :)
 
#4,635
NicJimBass said:
Admittedly, my MIDI chain is much simpler than yours, but I've had no problems using the Hub's MIDI through to change patches on my Line 6 M5. I tried using the M5's MIDI out into the Hub, and it didn't work... might've been a setting on the M5 that was wrong, not sure. If I'm totally misunderstanding the explanation you're giving, forgive me. :)
Click to expand...
Are you perhaps sending only one PC message? If so there should be no problem with that. The ES-8 can send a batch of up to eight PCs plus two CCs, which is more problematic.
 
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#4,636
NicJimBass said:
Admittedly, my MIDI chain is much simpler than yours, but I've had no problems using the Hub's MIDI through to change patches on my Line 6 M5. I tried using the M5's MIDI out into the Hub, and it didn't work... might've been a setting on the M5 that was wrong, not sure. If I'm totally misunderstanding the explanation you're giving, forgive me. :)
Click to expand...
Yea, one PC message is no problem. The problem arises when you're sending multiple messages like CC for expression, or Midi Clock, etc. I've had issues as well with the Hub when it was mistakingly being sent a ton of MIDI data. Mine can't even handle CC expression without there being signal interruption.

Also, the M series (maybe just the M5?) doesn't do MIDI THRU, only in and out, so whatever is sent to it stops there. Pretty dumb IMO but whatcha gonna do?? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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#4,637
FretNoMore said:
"MIDI Merge" is actually an old Anatek PocketMerge I had in a drawer since years back. It does not filter anything, but the MIDI Solutions merge boxes do remove Active Sense messages.

From their FAQ web page:

Q: Do any of the MIDI Solutions products filter active sensing messages?

A: We have found that the problems introduced by active sensing outweigh its benefits, therefore all MIDI Solutions products (except Thru boxes and the Power Adapter) filter active sensing messages.


I would think it's MIDI beat clock that's the main issue though since it produces many more messages than Active Sense but I thought it would be good to remove anything that's not useful from the MIDI bus.
Click to expand...

FretNoMore said:
More experimenting and a new finding regarding my Hub and MIDI problems:

When sending a batch of PCs on various channels from a patch in the ES-8 it looks like the trick is

- Don't use the Hub's Thru (because units after the Hub may not respond)
- Send the Hub's PC first (it doesn't respond with the PC later in the batch)

Getting closer to having everything work at the same time. :)
Click to expand...

Huh, that is interesting about the MIDI Merge boxes from MIDI Solutions, I had never read that FAQ and had no idea. However, I previously had the Beat Buddy prior to a Merge box and that didn't solve my issue, so like you I would assume MIDI Clock is more to blame, but it's something to test. (Also, very little explains why SA couldn't replicate the issue, which I've documented on video.)
 
#4,638
@FretNoMore: Try to private message you this, but I can't for some reason. So I just spent all day rewiring my two-tier/midi-board project I've been working on for like a week now. I got the wiring absolutely perfect, and I think I fixed all the hum issues I was having. However, I was perusing this thread and saw the troubles you've been having with the Hub and thru/merge messages. Now I'm terrified I'm going to have to rip it all apart, AGAIN! So for you sir, or anyone else that can answer, I have a few questions. Here is my midi chain currently:

Boss ES-8 > Reflex > Hub > Eventide H9 > Strymon > Eventide H9#2 > EHX Hog2

I was planning on assigning each a separate midi channel (for discussion let's say Reflex=1, Hub=2, H9=3, etc). I was planning using the ES-8 to send PC messages to all 6 devices (per preset on the ES-8). And I was planning on sending midi expression from the Reflex and clock from the ES-8 thru all of these pedals. I wasn't planning on using CC for anything (at least not yet). Do you think this is going to cause a similar problem to what you had? I'm going to try to trouble shoot some of this tomorrow, but I haven't finished wiring the board yet. From what it sounds like, I'm probably going to have to switch the midi cable order (put the hub second to last, or even use my Quad Thru box to put it last).
 
#4,640
FretNoMore said:
Yeah, I can say with some confidence that this will not work well or at all. Reconfigure using the Thru box so you don't have any pedals after the Hub, and send the Hub's PC first (Patch MIDI 1) from the ES-8.
Click to expand...

Alright, I'll reroute the midi cables and give this a go tomorrow. So when you say hubs PC messages first, all youre saying is set the hubs midi channel to number 1, on both the hub and es8?
 

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