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Source Audio Sorcerers Society (S.A.S.S) Part 3

To any Boss ES-5/ES-8 users out there,

What would I be giving up if I used an Boss ES looper as my midi controller instead of a Source Audio Soleman?
I'm considering using the different loops in the ES system to rearrange my Aftershock and C4 channels as I see fit.
 
To any Boss ES-5/ES-8 users out there,

What would I be giving up if I used an Boss ES looper as my midi controller instead of a Source Audio Soleman?
I'm considering using the different loops in the ES system to rearrange my Aftershock and C4 channels as I see fit.

I haven't used the Soleman, but I had the ES8 for a bit. I know you'd be giving up a bit more obvious display of what you're controlling if you used the ES8/5. I didn't feel like it was always very obvious what was going on with the ES8 post-programming. I had started a spreadsheet to keep track of what I had programmed.
 
I haven't used the Soleman, but I had the ES8 for a bit. I know you'd be giving up a bit more obvious display of what you're controlling if you used the ES8/5. I didn't feel like it was always very obvious what was going on with the ES8 post-programming. I had started a spreadsheet to keep track of what I had programmed.
As an ES-8 user who’s never used a Soleman, what displays am I missing out on? I like the spreadsheet idea, because I only have a few patches that are “complete” how I like them (not waiting on any changes).
 
I haven't used the Soleman, but I had the ES8 for a bit. I know you'd be giving up a bit more obvious display of what you're controlling if you used the ES8/5. I didn't feel like it was always very obvious what was going on with the ES8 post-programming. I had started a spreadsheet to keep track of what I had programmed.
Thanks for that. I was planning to keep somewhat detailed notes anyway since it would be my first MIDI control unit and loop switching unit.

If I can probe your brain a bit more:
Is it possible to use the both Inputs 1 and 2 on the ES-8 and run two parallel chains through the ES-8 all the way to outputs 1 and 2?

I've been combing the manual, and watching videos on the ES-8, and I'm almost positive it can do what I'm interested in so now I'm trying to explore it's limits.
 
Thanks for that. I was planning to keep somewhat detailed notes anyway since it would be my first MIDI control unit and loop switching unit.

If I can probe your brain a bit more:
Is it possible to use the both Inputs 1 and 2 on the ES-8 and run two parallel chains through the ES-8 all the way to outputs 1 and 2?

I've been combing the manual, and watching videos on the ES-8, and I'm almost positive it can do what I'm interested in so now I'm trying to explore it's limits.

I'm not an owner of the ES8 anymore, but I'm pretty sure you can. Just gotta get creative with the internal routing (via programming).
 
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I've had my Spectrum for a day now, and I am amazed at the versatility and organic sound of the tones available in it!

One request to Source Audio - please upload the factory presets for the Spectrum and C-4 to the Neuro App, or make them available somewhere else. They are fantastic, but I want to try other presets without losing them forever should I change my mind. It's one thing to audition presets in my music room, but I need to hear them in a live mix with the band before I can really determine whether a given preset is a keeper. The option to go back to what Source Audio gave me right out of the box would be helpful.

Thanks!
Use your Neuro Library. That's what it's there for!!
 
Have you uploaded this setting yet? I see three recent uploads of yours but not one that says MF-101. Thanks

Your Manta preset is KILLER !!!!
thymecop from Source Audio has kindly uploaded my MF-101 patch as a Spectrum preset.

Thanks for the compliment, I just hope it’s the patch I actually made; when I tried to load it from the Spectrum version it didn't sound like the C4 version. EDIT - it really isn’t the same as my C4 Manta preset so I can only take partial credit.
 
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To any Boss ES-5/ES-8 users out there,

What would I be giving up if I used an Boss ES looper as my midi controller instead of a Source Audio Soleman?
I'm considering using the different loops in the ES system to rearrange my Aftershock and C4 channels as I see fit.

Haven't used the Soleman, but do use a ES-5.

The good:
-Build patches of both MIDI and non-midi pedals.
-Name those patches...song names or after whatever patches you're triggering.
-With MIDI and loops if you plan your signal path well, you don't need the MIDI patches in the 5 loops. For instance, my Synth is in front of the ES-5 (as are my compressors) and my delay & verb are after the ES-5 and everything else is in the loops.
-You can do parallel signal paths in the ES itself.
-The Boss interface is really easy to use, move around patches and mess with options (computer/laptop & MIDI not IOS, or Mobile).

The Bad:
The ES-5 Doesn't have a set of 'patch up' patch down buttons (the 8 does). I have a separate MIDI controller integrated to do on the fly ratcheting of MIDI pedal patches.
 
Haven't used the Soleman, but do use a ES-5.

The good:
-Build patches of both MIDI and non-midi pedals.
-Name those patches...song names or after whatever patches you're triggering.
-With MIDI and loops if you plan your signal path well, you don't need the MIDI patches in the 5 loops. For instance, my Synth is in front of the ES-5 (as are my compressors) and my delay & verb are after the ES-5 and everything else is in the loops.
-You can do parallel signal paths in the ES itself.
-The Boss interface is really easy to use, move around patches and mess with options (computer/laptop & MIDI not IOS, or Mobile).

The Bad:
The ES-5 Doesn't have a set of 'patch up' patch down buttons (the 8 does). I have a separate MIDI controller integrated to do on the fly ratcheting of MIDI pedal patches.
Which controller are you using then?
 
Which controller are you using then?

I have a Disaster Area DMC-3XL for that. Though they also make some slightly cheaper/smaller ones too.

To give you an idea of how my setup works:

board8.8.19.jpg


BoardFlow2.jpg


And with the MIDI Path (it's changed a little since I did this, but close):
BoardFlow.jpg
 
Some of asked for this:
ENVELOPES IN THE C4
8/19/19

The Source Audio C4 Synth pedal has two envelope followers available. They both have the same capabilities, but their control parameters may be set differently. Input 1 or input 2 may serve as the input signal to either. An envelope follower uses its audio input signal to output a representation of how loud the audio is at the moment. Louder signals get a higher output level from the envelope follower.

Since the audio signal goes both positive and negative, we first take the absolute value of the audio; negative values are replaced by the same number, but made positive. A certain amount of smoothing is necessary, because the input signal will repeatedly go to zero, but at a rate which we don't perceive as a level change, since it is happening too fast for us to hear like that. Deliberately introducing a slower than necessary smoothing will cause the output to move more slowly than the actual audio signal changes. Different smoothing rates for attack (a rising output) and decay (a falling output) permit more control over the final response.

Whereas a typical synthesizer has a controllable release time on its envelopes (which begins when one takes their hand off a keyboard note), we have the problem that the guitar sound is over when a note is through. A synthesizer oscillator would still be running, but the pitch detector output tends to lose it as a note is dying away, so the synth oscillator is also not reliably available after note end. So our final release times are always quite short.


We also offer ADSR type envelopes (attack – decay – sustain – release). The attack segment begins when an attack threshold level is exceeded. When the envelope level gets to 1.0 (full scale ON), the decay segment takes over, dropping until the sustain level is reached. When the input gets below a release threshold, we go into a (fast, as always) release segment. These threshold levels are fixed. One more reason to do the Input Gain Calibration procedure, to make sure your guitar signal is in the proper range, for the fixed thresholds.

All of these possible envelope controls are not brought out to the user interface. This is partly due to trying to save bits in the preset data (and if you had asked me 50 years ago whether saving bits would still be a thing in 2019, I would have laughed), and also to keep the complexity down. Reasonable people may disagree that boiling down a lot of controls into only a few, with a selection of envelope types, is really simpler. But that's the way it is.
The Envelope Type definitions:




The Speed control goes from 0.0 to 1.0, for both Attack and Decay times. This is translated to the following range of what are called "time constants". (After one time constant, a decaying signal has dropped to 36.8% (or -8.7 dB) from its starting value.)



The Fast-Attack number controls exactly how fast the initial attack can rise. 1.0 is instantaneous; 0.5 is the fastest used. Most are considerably slower. The ADSR envelopes do not use this control.

Sustain is the ADSR sustain level. Most are 0.0, with two at 0.2.
 
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I have a Disaster Area DMC-3XL for that. Though they also make some slightly cheaper/smaller ones too.

To give you an idea of how my setup works:

View attachment 3514337

View attachment 3514338

And with the MIDI Path (it's changed a little since I did this, but close):
View attachment 3514339
I'm gonna bookmark this this is really interesting.
Thanks Btw I assumed the ES-5 was just smaller than the ES-8 and without some stereo options. Positive I'll need the ES8 now.

My plan is to run my MBD-1, Black Muff Pi, and FEA DB-CL Into inputs 1 and 2 on the Boss Switcher, then run parallel through the ES-8 and sum up for a mono output.
I'd have loops 1 through 4 on the ES8 responsible for Aftershock i/o 1 and 2 and C4 i/o 1 and 2,
Mastotron in loop 5,
Loop 6 for Boss RV-500 channel 1,
Loop 7 for Boss RV-500 channel 2,
Loop 8 and the volume loop don't have an intended use for me at the moment so I'd use them for any other pedals that I swap onto my board.

Do you know if I'd run into problems routing like this? I know the Aftershock, C4, and RV-500 can all basically be used as two individual pedals each as long as you program them properly. My concern is splitting my signal after the DB-CL into the ES8.
Do you know if inputs 1 and 2 summed and then split through the ES8? Or are you able to route Input 1 and Input 2 through their own effects all the way to the output?
 
I'm gonna bookmark this this is really interesting.
Thanks Btw I assumed the ES-5 was just smaller than the ES-8 and without some stereo options. Positive I'll need the ES8 now.

My plan is to run my MBD-1, Black Muff Pi, and FEA DB-CL Into inputs 1 and 2 on the Boss Switcher, then run parallel through the ES-8 and sum up for a mono output.
I'd have loops 1 through 4 on the ES8 responsible for Aftershock i/o 1 and 2 and C4 i/o 1 and 2,
Mastotron in loop 5,
Loop 6 for Boss RV-500 channel 1,
Loop 7 for Boss RV-500 channel 2,
Loop 8 and the volume loop don't have an intended use for me at the moment so I'd use them for any other pedals that I swap onto my board.

Do you know if I'd run into problems routing like this? I know the Aftershock, C4, and RV-500 can all basically be used as two individual pedals each as long as you program them properly. My concern is splitting my signal after the DB-CL into the ES8.
Do you know if inputs 1 and 2 summed and then split through the ES8? Or are you able to route Input 1 and Input 2 through their own effects all the way to the output?

I don't think you'll have a problem with splitting, but then I haven't really been paying attention to the ES-8. Here's a question...are you then summing to mono-out or are you going to a stereo send (DI or amp). My only concern would be phase after the split. I do know that some pedals will flip phase...I have a crossover pedal with a phase inverter on the HP side and indeed my fuzz pedal does need me to change the phase in the loop.

I ended up setting mine up with a handful of things in front and a handful behind because I have some 'always on' things like my Cali & the Opti-Limiter then somethings at the end that I'd always want at the end that can be MIDI triggered. If you're playing 'parallel loop' games or such, then it makes sense to have things all looped. I will say that I moved the Flex Pro into a loop so I could use it parallel to clean signal, which is great except I'd hoped I could control the individual volumes via the ES-5's mixer and it doesn't have that facility...you can add signal or subtract, but its across both signal paths not one or the other.

My issue with the ES-8 was how deep the unit is. I literally couldn't fit it on the board and maintain 3 rows of pedals and have room for wiring. As it is I have to use the smallest connectors possible to fit.
 
Haven't used the Soleman, but do use a ES-5.

The good:
-Build patches of both MIDI and non-midi pedals.
-Name those patches...song names or after whatever patches you're triggering.
-With MIDI and loops if you plan your signal path well, you don't need the MIDI patches in the 5 loops. For instance, my Synth is in front of the ES-5 (as are my compressors) and my delay & verb are after the ES-5 and everything else is in the loops.
-You can do parallel signal paths in the ES itself.
-The Boss interface is really easy to use, move around patches and mess with options (computer/laptop & MIDI not IOS, or Mobile).

The Bad:
The ES-5 Doesn't have a set of 'patch up' patch down buttons (the 8 does). I have a separate MIDI controller integrated to do on the fly ratcheting of MIDI pedal patches.

If you plug in a pair of external buttons...you can assign them as a patch up and a patch down. Sure you loose the expression in jack...but to be honest the Boss ES5's expression over Midi is a bit weak.
These are nice...they follow the shape of the ES5:
Link Removed
 
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If you plug in a pair of external buttons...you can assign them as a patch up and a patch down. Sure you loose the expression in jack...but to be honest the Boss ES5's expression over Midi is a bit weak.

just as easy for me to implement a dedicated MIDI controller that does the same though, and has roller expression, expression jack, etc, then I have a display that tells me which MIDI device and which patch it's on.
 
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If you plug in a pair of external buttons...you can assign them as a patch up and a patch down. Sure you loose the expression in jack...but to be honest the Boss ES5's expression over Midi is a bit weak.
These are nice...they follow the shape of the ES5:
Link Removed

Brilliant. Ordered instantly as soon as i saw it. Thanks
 
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Some of asked for this:
ENVELOPES IN THE C4


8/19/19


The Source Audio C4 Synth pedal has two envelope followers available. They both have the same capabilities, but their control parameters may be set differently. Input 1 or input 2 may serve as the input signal to either. An envelope follower uses its audio input signal to output a representation of how loud the audio is at the moment. Louder signals get a higher output level from the envelope follower.


Since the audio signal goes both positive and negative, we first take the absolute value of the audio; negative values are replaced by the same number, but made positive. A certain amount of smoothing is necessary, because the input signal will repeatedly go to zero, but at a rate which we don't perceive as a level change, since it is happening too fast for us to hear like that. Deliberately introducing a slower than necessary smoothing will cause the output to move more slowly than the actual audio signal changes. Different smoothing rates for attack (a rising output) and decay (a falling output) permit more control over the final response.


Whereas a typical synthesizer has a controllable release time on its envelopes (which begins when one takes their hand off a keyboard note), we have the problem that the guitar sound is over when a note is through. A synthesizer oscillator would still be running, but the pitch detector output tends to lose it as a note is dying away, so the synth oscillator is also not reliably available after note end. So our final release times are always quite short.


We also offer ADSR type envelopes (attack – decay – sustain – release). The attack segment begins when an attack threshold level is exceeded. When the envelope level gets to 1.0 (full scale ON), the decay segment takes over, dropping until the sustain level is reached. When the input gets below a release threshold, we go into a (fast, as always) release segment. These threshold levels are fixed. One more reason to do the Input Gain Calibration procedure, to make sure your guitar signal is in the proper range, for the fixed thresholds.


All of these possible envelope controls are not brought out to the user interface. This is partly due to trying to save bits in the preset data (and if you had asked me 50 years ago whether saving bits would still be a thing in 2019, I would have laughed), and also to keep the complexity down. Reasonable people may disagree that boiling down a lot of controls into only a few, with a selection of envelope types, is really simpler. But that's the way it is.


The Envelope Type definitions:


Atk_lo Atk_hi Dec_lo Dec_hi Fast_atk ADSR Sustain


0 ADSR Adj A/D 0.2 1.0 0.2 0.6 N/A YES 0.0


Both A and D are controlled by the Speed control. With Speed = 0 (full counterclockwise), we use an Attack control value of 0.2. When Speed = 1.0 (full clockwise), the Attack control is 1.0.


1 Fast A, Adj D 0.7 0.7 0.2 0.85 0.05 NO N/A


The Attack control is fixed at 0.7.


2 Wide 1, Adj A/D 0.0 1.0 0.2 0.6 0.03 NO N/A


3 Swell 0.0 0.4 0.0 0.2 0.02 NO N/A


Slowest attack.


4 Wide 2, Adj A/D 0.0 1.0 0.5 0.8 0.07 NO N/A


Same Attack range, but Decay is faster than #2.


5 Snappy 0.6 1.0 0.4 0.75 0.15 NO N/A


Fast.


6 ADSR Fast A, Adj D 0.9 1.0 0.1 0.55 N/A YES 0.0


7 ADSR Adj A/D 0.0 1.0 0.2 0.5 N/A YES 0.0


8 ADSR 4 0.9 1.0 0.1 0.55 N/A YES 0.2


Same as #6, but with a Sustain level of .2.


9 ADSR 5 0.0 1.0 0.2 0.5 N/A YES 0.2


Same as #7, but with a Sustain level of .2.


10 ADSR Slow A, Fast D 0.0 0.5 0.55 0.55 N/A YES 0.0


13 Fastest A, Adj D 1.0 1.0 0.2 0.8 0.5 NO N/A


The Speed control goes from 0.0 to 1.0, for both Attack and Decay times. This is translated to the following range of what are called "time constants". (After one time constant, a decaying signal has dropped to 36.8% (or -8.7 dB) from its starting value.)


Speed Time Constant


1.0 .65 msec


0.75 6.5 msec


0.5 65 msec


0.25 650 msec


0.0 6.5 sec


The Fast-Attack number controls exactly how fast the initial attack can rise. 1.0 is instantaneous; 0.5 is the fastest used. Most are considerably slower. The ADSR envelopes do not use this control.


Sustain is the ADSR sustain level. Most are 0.0, with two at 0.2.
@rsmith601 Okay I get that Bill apparently was annoyed we asked for more information, mea culpa.
After multiple readings and a return of my Monday Migraine I still do not have any better understanding of what the 12 Envelopes are supposed to do on the input signal. It would be nice to know what the shape of those Envelopes are because I cane really "hear" exactly what is going on. If I am asking too much please tell me to kindly bugger off. No hard feelings, honest.
 
@rsmith601 Okay I get that Bill apparently was annoyed we asked for more information, mea culpa.
After multiple readings and a return of my Monday Migraine I still do not have any better understanding of what the 12 Envelopes are supposed to do on the input signal. It would be nice to know what the shape of those Envelopes are because I cane really "hear" exactly what is going on. If I am asking too much please tell me to kindly bugger off. No hard feelings, honest.
It looks better with different formatting. Will do that tomorrow. The filter response curves could be measured and extracted without a huge investment, so we did that. Drawing those curves for the envelopes is a different story. If you see the numbers in a table it is an approximation of the visual.
Bob is highly technical, reads IEEE journals for fun. And if you ask a highly technical question, you will get a highly technical answer that makes sense in his world.