Source Audio Sourcerers Society (S.A.S.S.) Pt 2

[scotch]

I wonder if this might be a simple way to use your phone (with a usb cable plugged into the HUB) to change program presets?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=it.bordero.midicontroller

 

[Adamixoye]

How do you do this currently? What device is generating the tap tempo, and how it is sharing that tempo to be synced with your other devices?

If you have some device that sends MIDI Clock, that can be used by the Hub to sync tempo to Source Audio pedals. I've verified this with the Manta filter LFO.

To be clear, the Manta is not currently hooked up to the other ones. I have tap tempo on a Modfactor, which is sent to a Pitchfactor, which is sent to a Line6 M5. Eventually I will insert a Beat Buddy into this chain, before the M5, since the M5, won't send "thru." But the Factor series does "thru," and the Beat Buddy is supposed to as well.

Note: figuring out this tap tempo stuff with MIDI is the vast majority of my understanding of MIDI. I have literally not implemented anything else with MIDI.

The Hub does not currently generate any MIDI data other than MIDI CC from a connected HotHand or Expression pedal using a MIDI CC of your choice. You could then send that data to your other pedals. But beyond that the Hub does not currently save/generate MIDI data at all.

Instead you send the Hub MIDI PC and CC and it passes that along via the MIDI Out/Thru jack, or via the sensor outputs to SoundBlox pedals.

This is where I get lost with MIDI. I understand maybe half of what you said here. I don't know what the difference is between MIDI PC and CC, or how I would do this. Any recommendations on a starting resource?

For #2, this could be done by sending MIDI Clock to all of your MIDI gear, including the Hub. Again, currently none of the SourceAudio hardware generates MIDI Clock. You'll have to do that with some other piece of gear.

So, two questions:
(1) The Hub has the one MIDI in port, but don't you need this for a MIDI Mouse/Gecko/etc.? So if that slot is taken, I couldn't connect it to my Modfactor to get its tap tempo, is that correct?
(2) I think I read, from you, that you have to put SB2 pedals in tap tempo mode in order to receive MIDI clock through the sensor input, is that correct? Is tap tempo mode something you can save in a Hub scene, or would you have to go to the right scene, then manually put the SB2 pedal in tap tempo mode?

 

[gastric]

To be clear, the Manta is not currently hooked up to the other ones. I have tap tempo on a Modfactor, which is sent to a Pitchfactor, which is sent to a Line6 M5. Eventually I will insert a Beat Buddy into this chain, before the M5, since the M5, won't send "thru." But the Factor series does "thru," and the Beat Buddy is supposed to as well.

Note: figuring out this tap tempo stuff with MIDI is the vast majority of my understanding of MIDI. I have literally not implemented anything else with MIDI.

Well, you already have it all figured out. You just need to overcome the lack of MIDI Thru features which isn't uncommon. There's a variety of MIDI splitter boxes that can take one input and output multiple clones of that same MIDI data. Which is perfect for using with boxes without a MIDI Thru.

This is where I get lost with MIDI. I understand maybe half of what you said here. I don't know what the difference is between MIDI PC and CC, or how I would do this. Any recommendations on a starting resource?

Good question, I don't have an answer for you right now other than Google. But basically MIDI is just a communication protocol. It defines data that can be sent, and it's up to the devices to act upon that data.

MIDI PC (patch change)
MIDI CC (control change, used to change specific parameters)
MIDI Clock (tempo, though it's not positionally aware)
MIDI Note (literally a specific note, and includes an On and Off message)

Those are the basics. It's really quite simple, though definitely confusing if you've never researched it before.

So, two questions:
(1) The Hub has the one MIDI in port, but don't you need this for a MIDI Mouse/Gecko/etc.? So if that slot is taken, I couldn't connect it to my Modfactor to get its tap tempo, is that correct?

You absolutely need the Mouse/Gecko to send it's MIDI Out to the Hub's MIDI In. But it doesn't need to be directly connected in that specific order. Let me clarify.

If you could feed the Mouse/Gecko to the Modfactor, then the Modfactor chained to the next device, and so on then keeping the MIDI data chain going all the way to the Hub you'd theoretically be able to have the Mouse/Gecko sending MIDI PC (patch change) to change patches on ALL of your devices, and maybe have the Modfactor still send out MIDI Clock to ALL of your devices. All at the same time, though the same MIDI cables. That's assuming the Modfactory can MIDI Merge the data it sees at it's MIDI In, and combine that with whatever MIDI data the Modfactor itself is generating, then send it all back out it's MIDI Out. Not all devices provide MIDI Merge functionality (the merging of multiple MIDI data streams).

It's all just data messages being sent downstream. It's up to the receiving devices to act upon that data.

(2) I think I read, from you, that you have to put SB2 pedals in tap tempo mode in order to receive MIDI clock through the sensor input, is that correct? Is tap tempo mode something you can save in a Hub scene, or would you have to go to the right scene, then manually put the SB2 pedal in tap tempo mode?

I was mistaken regarding the SB2 pedals needing to be in tap tempo mode. The pedals, such as the Manta, recognize MIDI Clock automatically regardless of what mode the pedal happens to be in. And it has NOTHING to do with the Scene. It's all done automatically.

MIDI Clock is real-time data and is not saved anywhere. It is computed on-the-fly while being received. MIDI Clock is a little confusing, but it's basically a constant data "tick". Each receiving device is responsible for computing the clock based on the "tick". This is why I say MIDI Clock is not positionally aware, it has no idea what beat within a measure you're in. It just knows that it's computed the BPM as 128. Or maybe 127. Or maybe it wavers between both because it's computing the BPM in real-time based on a stream of "tick" in the data stream. It's not laser precise, but it usually works fairly well.

Hope that helps.

 

[Adamixoye]

Well, you already have it all figured out. You just need to overcome the lack of MIDI Thru features which isn't uncommon. There's a variety of MIDI splitter boxes that can take one input and output multiple clones of that same MIDI data. Which is perfect for using with boxes without a MIDI Thru.

Since all but the M5 have Thru, so far I don't need a splitter. I was researching splitters before I found out the Beat Buddy has Thru. I guess the Manta also doesn't have Thru, but that's kind of irrelevant since you can't connect it with a standard MIDI cable anyway, and you need the Hub.

Good question, I don't have an answer for you right now other than Google. But basically MIDI is just a communication protocol. It defines data that can be sent, and it's up to the devices to act upon that data.

MIDI PC (patch change)
MIDI CC (control change, used to change specific parameters)
MIDI Clock (tempo, though it's not positionally aware)
MIDI Note (literally a specific note, and includes an On and Off message)

Those are the basics. It's really quite simple, though definitely confusing if you've never researched it before.

Well, thanks for not going with a ******.com link! That barebones info is helpful though. So basically, the Mouse/Gecko type of controllers send PC data, and that's also what can be used to change scenes on the Hub? So I have to set it up for changing scenes on the Hub, while also changing the patches I want changed on my other pedals?

You absolutely need the Mouse/Gecko to send it's MIDI Out to the Hub's MIDI In. But it doesn't need to be directly connected in that specific order. Let me clarify.

If you could feed the Mouse/Gecko to the Modfactor, then the Modfactor chained to the next device, and so on then keeping the MIDI data chain going all the way to the Hub you'd theoretically be able to have the Mouse/Gecko sending MIDI PC (patch change) to change patches on ALL of your devices, and maybe have the Modfactor still send out MIDI Clock to ALL of your devices. All at the same time, though the same MIDI cables. That's assuming the Modfactory can MIDI Merge the data it sees at it's MIDI In, and combine that with whatever MIDI data the Modfactor itself is generating, then send it all back out it's MIDI Out. Not all devices provide MIDI Merge functionality (the merging of multiple MIDI data streams).

It's all just data messages being sent downstream. It's up to the receiving devices to act upon that data.

This mostly makes sense. I guess I'll have to look into how the Factor series does this.

I was mistaken regarding the SB2 pedals needing to be in tap tempo mode. The pedals, such as the Manta, recognize MIDI Clock automatically regardless of what mode the pedal happens to be in. And it has NOTHING to do with the Scene. It's all done automatically.

MIDI Clock is real-time data and is not saved anywhere. It is computed on-the-fly while being received. MIDI Clock is a little confusing, but it's basically a constant data "tick". Each receiving device is responsible for computing the clock based on the "tick". This is why I say MIDI Clock is not positionally aware, it has no idea what beat within a measure you're in. It just knows that it's computed the BPM as 128. Or maybe 127. Or maybe it wavers between both because it's computing the BPM in real-time based on a stream of "tick" in the data stream. It's not laser precise, but it usually works fairly well.

Hope that helps.

So this is true not just of the Manta but of the Orbital as well?

Also, you have answered a question I had about how the MIDI clock data works. I have always wondered if it was a single command send out when you change it, or if it is continuous. And your comment about precision definitely matches my experience (the Factor series pedals display the BPM when you change it, and sometimes they will be off by 1 BPM, and/or one of them will "flutter" between two adjacent BPM values).

 

[gastric]

Since all but the M5 have Thru, so far I don't need a splitter. I was researching splitters before I found out the Beat Buddy has Thru. I guess the Manta also doesn't have Thru, but that's kind of irrelevant since you can't connect it with a standard MIDI cable anyway, and you need the Hub.

Correct, you connect MIDI to the Hub, which then translates it via the sensor cables to the SB2 pedals.

Well, thanks for not going with a ******.com link! That barebones info is helpful though. So basically, the Mouse/Gecko type of controllers send PC data, and that's also what can be used to change scenes on the Hub? So I have to set it up for changing scenes on the Hub, while also changing the patches I want changed on my other pedals?

Correct. MIDI PC received by the Hub is what causes the Hub to change Scenes.

As far as changing patches on your other pedals using MIDI PC, I cannot say for certain other than the Line6 M5 will definitely change patches automatically. However, it only stores 24 patches maximum so nothing happens if you send it MIDI PC beyond that 24 patch limit. It's a fairly basic device.

I'm going to assume your other boxes can totally change patches via MIDI PC they receive, but I don't know for certain. Again, it's up to the receiving devices to read and act upon the data. Some MIDI aware devices provide a LOT of configuration to deal with incoming (and sometimes outgoing) MIDI data. For example a configurable patch matrix to change to specific patches based on the MIDI PC received as opposed to simply blindly mirroring the local patches with the MIDI PC. So MIDI PC 1 on a device could theoretically change to the local patch 44 if it provided a MIDI matrix to configure that. It's fairly advanced and can be confusing. It's way easier to logically comprehend just configuring all of your devices to follow the same linear patch changes.

So MIDI PC1 changes everything to patch 1. Very logical and easy to keep straight.

So this is true not just of the Manta but of the Orbital as well?

Actually, I discovered the Orbital's current firmware does not yet sync to MIDI Clock. But I'm assuming that change is in the near future.

Also, you have answered a question I had about how the MIDI clock data works. I have always wondered if it was a single command send out when you change it, or if it is continuous. And your comment about precision definitely matches my experience (the Factor series pedals display the BPM when you change it, and sometimes they will be off by 1 BPM, and/or one of them will "flutter" between two adjacent BPM values).

Exactly, you can see this on a lot of devices that sync MIDI Clock. It's fairly complicated how MIDI Clock data is sent.

The important thing are the receiving devices don't know what position in the measure you are in, and the further downstream the device is from the MIDI Clock generating device, the more out of sync they will likely be from the clock in general due to delays physically receiving the data, and potential delays in their computational algorithms. And the MIDI data is jammed in there with all of the other MIDI data, which can further delay the clock computation.

I've seen some Line6 devices, not sure about the Line6 M5 specifically, allow you to still use the local hard tap tempo button to force the local device to re-compute the start of the measure based on the MIDI Clock. This is useful if you have a 1/4 note tremolo or something that needs to be specifically hitting a specific beat within the measure. 2 minutes into a song the MIDI Clock will definitely have drifted off the measures, though the tempo itself will likely still be correct.

Sounds strange, but if you have 6 devices that all see the MIDI Clock and compute it at 128bpm successfully, but each was a split second off receiving the MIDI Clock data (which they will be), the longer the song goes on the more each device will drift, and eventually that drift can become fairly obvious.

It's not as noticeable for triggered tempo effects, such as delays. But it is noticeable for run-on tempo effects like tremolo.

I'm by no means a MIDI guru, I just have slightly more experience with it than your MIDI beginner. So hopefully some people even smarter than me can fill in any gaps, or correct any mistakes I've spewed.

 

[nshuman]

Ok, here is a quick pic of my SA setup. I just got done rearranging stuff and redoing some cables so t is not all nicely aligned yet. Anyway, the spot at the top will get filled in the the Dimension Reverb when it arrives. I will put the dual expression pedal off the board and I really need right angle midi connectors. Other than that, it works pretty well so far.

 

[Smallequestrian]

Decided that I can live without the expression pedal on board. This enabled me to get the reverb and a malekko both on. The empty space above the octave will host a Polytune Mini and HH3 receiver once I get another of the multifunction cables.

 

[Saluki]

Decided that I can live without the expression pedal on board. This enabled me to get the reverb and a malekko both on. The empty space above the octave will host a Polytune Mini and HH3 receiver once I get another of the multifunction cables.

Paul,

Nice setup. Next time your down at Legacy you need to bring that over and give me some SA pointers!

 

[Geist]

Just pulled the plug on an Orbital and an OFD.

 

[Vlad5]

Just ordered an Orbital Modulator and Dimension Reverb.

Months of drooling over posted SA infused pedal boards and demo videos led me to this.

I think they will go well with my SA Dual Expression pedal (the only current SA pedal I own, and love).

I can daisy train those into the Dual Expression right... using the TRRS data cable?

Gonna be a while till I get a Hub and midi controller... baby steps.

 

[zwkoch]

Yes, you can daisy chain the dual exp through all SB2 pedals. I used my exp to control the reverb send function on the Dimension reverb. Fantastic stuff.

 

[Vlad5]

Nice! I thought so, been a while since I read the info sheet on it.

I'm so going to enjoy making far out space metal noises with these three pedals!

I've been missing expression controlled phasing since I (sadly) sold my Compact Faye Sing.
Still lament that day, but this is step in another, very right direction.

Mooooore nooooiiiiiise connnntrolllll!!!

 

[yaksonator]

Added a dimension reverb to the mix.. just has to get here! I'll post a pic when all the pieces get here. I'm waiting on a midi hub and the reverb!

 

[gregmon79]

Hey all, does anyone know that the ma current draw is for the soundblox 2 series pedals? I've got a power supply on the way and I'm trying to add up all my pedals ma draws. Are they all the same draw too??

 

[johnk_10]

they draw about 140-150ma each. and the hot hand adds another 40ma.

 

[gregmon79]

they draw about 140-150ma each. and the hot hand adds another 40ma.

Wowzaa! Thanks john. Looks like I'll be sticking with the 1spot with those or the ps's that came with them. I guess it really shouldn't be surprised since the amount of stuff in each one and them being digital.

 

[nshuman]

Just tried the Dimension Reverb again and it is another amazing SA pedal. Now, I really don't need the multiwave distortion pedal, right? right? I must stay strong!

 

[M Sterling]

OFD ordered. All of my favorite "dirt heads" on this forum are singing its praises, so I have to give it a shot!

 

[gregmon79]

OFD ordered. All of my favorite "dirt heads" on this forum are singing its praises, so I have to give it a shot!

I think you'll be pleased. Even after all the praises it got here on TB I was still a tad skeptical. And I even already had the orbital and manta so I got a taste of what SA had to offer. I got the OFD a few days ago and right out of the box I was getting OD's dist and fuzzes that mimicked some of my fav dirts almost to the tee. Some of them pretty dead on. I'm still quite surprised. It's damn good. I have a show tonight and I will be using the OFD in place of my OCD. I have yet to even practice live with it so that's when the true test for me will be.

 

[M Sterling]

I think you'll be pleased. Even after all the praises it got here on TB I was still a tad skeptical. And I even already had the orbital and manta so I got a taste of what SA had to offer. I got the OFD a few days ago and right out of the box I was getting OD's dist and fuzzes that mimicked some of my fav dirts almost to the tee. Some of them pretty dead on. I'm still quite surprised. It's damn good. I have a show tonight and I will be using the OFD in place of my OCD. I have yet to even practice live with it so that's when the true test for me will be.

Cool! Let me know how it does on the gig.

BTW you were definitely one of the "dirt heads" I was referring to! And I mean that in the most awesome way possible!