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Stoner/Doom Bassists Thread, Part 90: Maxed Out

@El_Charro that's a lot of info to deal up and I would recommend taking time to read up through searches and threads as they can be entertaining and educational, but essentially responses to most of your questions below (as far as my limited knowledge goes at least)
:
- ampeg make a wide range of amps- solid state (including lightweight class d and traditional transformer types) and valve heads
- valve amps need a little extra care when moving immediately after a gig and require more maintenance as a rule of thumb over time.
- valve amps are heavy as they have massive transformers to deliver sound and typically come in ply built casing that needs to house valves and transformers.
- ohms is a measure of resistance (impedance). An amp can only operate down to a certain threshold (normally 4 ohms, sometimes 2 ohms). It needs to be matched with a cabinet that doesn't take it below that threshold or it'll overheat. E.g matching a 4 ohm min amp with a 2 ohm cabinet). Tone isn't a factor in this, but in solid state heads, the maximum output of power will be at the lowest impedence. Valve amps work differently and need to be impedence matched exactly and output the same power at any impedence. Worth doing reading and searches on this topic to fully understand it, including wiring cabs in series and parallel.
- there's no hard and fast rule to power matching a head and cab. You can't under power a cab and you can blow speakers with less power than they are rated for several reasons....too much low end for too long being one. I normally go for cabs with a higher power rating than the head.
- to pair with the Mesa, I'm sure two Mesa cabs would work well. Based on your level of experience I'd strongly suggest buying used and work out what works once youre in a band. This is unlikely to be a right first time decision. You could probably get away with a single 4ohm 212 at rehearsals and maybe gigs. Most 410s (8 or 4 ohms) would cover you for most stuff. The Mesa running down to 2 ohms means you can plug in 1x8 ohm, 1x4ohm, 2x4 ohm cabinets, 4x8 ohm cabinets or 1x4 ohm + 2x8 ohm cabs (running cabs in parallel) again read up on this topic. Running in parallel shares the power of the amp based on the resistance of the cabs. E.g. running 2 4 ohm cabs in parallel shares the power equally between cabs.
- speaker size tells you how big the speaker is, nothing about tone. Cone volume largely determines volume output based on air movement. There are so many variables in cab design beyond the woofer that you just can't tell. 12s and 10s are most popular I'd say at the moment in manufacturing. There's loads of lightweight and innovative brands to consider it's a really great time to be a bassist shopping for gear, depending on budget.

My recommendations would be:
1. Read read and keep reading on forums and electrical sites
2. Buy second hand
3. Subject to transport I'd look at a decent 212 or 410 to start with (4 ohms if you buy the Mesa) - look at any cabs that fit your weight need and broadly match Mesa power handling
4. Accept you're on a learning curve and you'll go through a gear journey to get the sound you want in a package that works financially, weight and quality wise.

Sorry bit of a brain dump....hopefully helpful.
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A bit of a brain dump indeed, but I wanted to say thank you for giving me such a detailed response…

I will keep reading up and researching and figuring out what I want, but to your point above about valve amps-I’m not sure I’m willing to take on the potential risk of messing up the amp (I don’t wanna use the word “fragile” here but they seem a little bit more susceptible to potential mortal harm…I get that they probably might even sound a bit better, but their weight seems to deter me in addition to the other things you mentioned…(Good point about Ampeg just btw-From what I know about them they have a good brand reputation but yeah-You’re right I suppose I don’t “have” to have a tube amp if I go with their brand…

To your second point on recommendations-Am wondering if I can luck out on Reverb or a similar site at some point…Most of the amps I’ve looked at are pretty expensive new-I can swing it, but lol-Not quite sure I’m ready for that level of commitment just yet…

I hit a year of playing this month-I’m a lot better than I was but I DEFINITELY need to keep practicing before I think about trying to get in a band…

Thanks again for the reply-Apologies if my response is a bit short by comparison, but I found your post SUPER helpful, so thank you for such a thoughtful and technical reply…

Thanks! \m/
 
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Nearly every amp you'll look at will be rated for different output wattage depending on the 'ohm load' or impedance. Most of them will have an 8 ohm output rating, a 4 ohm output rating, and some will have a 2 ohm output rating (if they are capable of running at 2 ohms). For example, the Mesa D-800 puts out 400 watts running an 8 ohm load, and 800 watts when running at 4 and 2 ohms.

The impedance/ohm load is dictated by the cab(s) connected to your amp. Cabs are typically rated at either 8 ohms or 4 ohms, and manufacturers will always specify. For example, if you end up buying a couple of 1x12 cabinets or 1x15 cabinets, each of those will most likely be 8 ohm cabs. If you look at 4x10 cabs, you'll find a mix with some being 8 ohm cabs and others being 4 ohms. 8x10 or 2x15s will almost always be 4 ohms. The key thing here is that pairing different cabs changes the total impedance or ohm load on your amplifier. If you pair two 8 ohm cabinets, that results in a 4 ohm load for the amp. If you pair two 4 ohm cabinets, that becomes a 2 ohm load. If you're just using a single cabinet, the load presented to your amp is whatever that single cab is rated at (8 or 4 ohms). You can get into impedance calculators if you start mixing 8 and 4 ohm cabs, run more than two cabs, or grab a rare cabinet rated at something other than 4 or 8 ohms.

Where this may come into play is if you decide you want to ultimately run two cabs, but you only want to buy one cab to get up and running. The Mesa (and a number of other amps) can handle 8, 4, and 2 ohm loads, which gives you some flexibility. So if you are gunning for two cabs and you decide to buy two 8 ohm cabs, while running a single cab you're only getting that 8 ohm rating of 400 watts from the amp. When you add a second 8 ohm cab, the impedance comes down to 4 ohms and you're getting the 800 watt rating. If you go the two cab route and get two 4 ohm cabs, you'll get the full 800 watts running either cab solo, but combined you'll be at 2 ohms. This is essentially the same wattage, but amps generally run a little harder/hotter when you get down to 2 ohms.

I used some very broad/basic examples here. All that said, it's definitely worth reading up on or finding some detailed youtube explanations if that's your preference. The info is out there, and it's worth familiarizing yourself for the sake of not damaging your gear. Additionally, tube/valve amps operate differently with regard to the impedance/load matching...that's another rabbit hole.



Certainly not a bad thing unless you're drastically overpowering the cab and cranking the hell out of your gain/volume. If you're listening to your setup, you'll hear your speakers start to struggle and woof and fart out before they explode. So there's no problem running an 800 watt amp into a cab rated at only 300 or 400 watts, as long as you're paying attention. It's not much different than having a home stereo receiver capable of delivering 100 watts and hooking it up to a couple of bookshelf speakers only rated to handle 15 watts. It's only a problem if you get reckless with the gain/volume.

ETA: Looks like someone beat me to some of this, but hopefully reading it a few different ways is helpful.
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Thanks for responding…

On your second part of the response-Maybe I’m WAY over thinking this-When I read that paragraph my mind went to typical car stereo, home stereo and headphones-If you push them past a certain point you can “blow out” the speaker -Lol-I don’t wanna know how many sets of headphones I’ve blown out in my life…Would you say the amp/cab functions similarly (just let the volume knob determine where the speaker’s “breaking point” is???…On regular stereo equipment you can kind of find that threshold point and then make sure you don’t exceed it…

Your post also made me think about the Fletcher Munson Curve-At some point sound waves distort depending on the level you’re trying to push them to and that can f-up your speaker if they don’t have the capacity to handle the volume that you’re trying to push them to…

As a side note here-That is one of my favorite things about live shows-They have the equipment necessary to really rip something loud, but not have it sound awful because the equipment can handle the output…

Finger majorly crossed that I get to go to the next two concerts I have tickets for because I REALLY miss live music (am guessing I’m not the only one here that has that opinion)…

Thanks! \m/
 
———————-
A bit of a brain dump indeed, but I wanted to say thank you for giving me such a detailed response…

I will keep reading up and researching and figuring out what I want, but to your point above about valve amps-I’m not sure I’m willing to take on the potential risk of messing up the amp (I don’t wanna use the word “fragile” here but they seem a little bit more susceptible to potential mortal harm…I get that they probably might even sound a bit better, but their weight seems to deter me in addition to the other things you mentioned…(Good point about Ampeg just btw-From what I know about them they have a good brand reputation but yeah-You’re right I suppose I don’t “have” to have a tube amp if I go with their brand…

To your second point on recommendations-Am wondering if I can luck out on Reverb or a similar site at some point…Most of the amps I’ve looked at are pretty expensive new-I can swing it, but lol-Not quite sure I’m ready for that level of commitment just yet…

I hit a year of playing this month-I’m a lot better than I was but I DEFINITELY need to keep practicing before I think about trying to get in a band…

Thanks again for the reply-Apologies if my response is a bit short by comparison, but I found your post SUPER helpful, so thank you for such a thoughtful and technical reply…

Thanks! \m/
I'd say you hit one of the biggest points ever in your response - practice! Sure, rigs can have different sounds, but if you don't sound good, the rig doesn't matter. Take your time, find the rig that works for you, and keep practicing. I'm happy that I'll actually be able to play consistently again. Looking forward to getting my chops back up again.

And for what it's worth, I love my GK amps. Used to think Ampeg was the way to go, but in buying "professional" gear years ago, I compared the GK to Ampeg and there was a clear winner. Of course, YMMV and all that, but it was a no-brainer for me. I prefer the immediacy and punch of the GK. What I'm really saying is that if you can test out anything first, that would be the way to go. No one but you can say what you think of the amps.
 
I'd say you hit one of the biggest points ever in your response - practice! Sure, rigs can have different sounds, but if you don't sound good, the rig doesn't matter. Take your time, find the rig that works for you, and keep practicing. I'm happy that I'll actually be able to play consistently again. Looking forward to getting my chops back up again.

And for what it's worth, I love my GK amps. Used to think Ampeg was the way to go, but in buying "professional" gear years ago, I compared the GK to Ampeg and there was a clear winner. Of course, YMMV and all that, but it was a no-brainer for me. I prefer the immediacy and punch of the GK. What I'm really saying is that if you can test out anything first, that would be the way to go. No one but you can say what you think of the amps.

Agreed. I spent the past couple of years between GK RB, Fusion S, MarkBass, Ampeg, and Aguilar heads. I found my tone in an SVT Classic. An amp I never thought I’d own simply because it’s heavy and requires maintenance above what I was willing to put into “just another head”. I was wrong. I realized if I wanted that tone then I had to reconcile myself to the obvious. Nothing else could replicate it in a lighter or less intrusive package. Does it suck moving it? Yeah. I don’t regret my decision even with those caveats. Especially with a 610 which, in all honesty, is just as important IMO.

Cabs, to me, are like 40% of the post pedalboard sound, probably 10-20% of your overall sound, and more important than most other things we pine over continually. A good head will sound like ass through a bad cab and vice versa, but to a lesser degree. My advice is to pick your cab just as wisely as you’d pick a head.

This is just my personal hypothesis, but I’d be willing to bet I’m somewhere in the Bell Curve of general consensus.
 
Agreed. I spent the past couple of years between GK RB, Fusion S, MarkBass, Ampeg, and Aguilar heads. I found my tone in an SVT Classic. An amp I never thought I’d own simply because it’s heavy and requires maintenance above what I was willing to put into “just another head”. I was wrong. I realized if I wanted that tone then I had to reconcile myself to the obvious. Nothing else could replicate it in a lighter or less intrusive package. Does it suck moving it? Yeah. I don’t regret my decision even with those caveats. Especially with a 610 which, in all honesty, is just as important IMO.

Cabs, to me, are like 40% of the post pedalboard sound, probably 10-20% of your overall sound, and more important than most other things we pine over continually. A good head will sound like ass through a bad cab and vice versa, but to a lesser degree. My advice is to pick your cab just as wisely as you’d pick a head.

This is just my personal hypothesis, but I’d be willing to bet I’m somewhere in the Bell Curve of general consensus.
This is a good post. I think a lot of people have had a similar journey. I tired a bunch of stuff over the years, for budget and weight reasons, before I finally landed on the SVT CL. It's worth every penny and every pound. I moved away briefly because I got a sponsorship, and I loved my AD200B, but if I ever decide to play out again, I'll just save myself the brain damage and buy the SVT.
 
Agreed. I spent the past couple of years between GK RB, Fusion S, MarkBass, Ampeg, and Aguilar heads. I found my tone in an SVT Classic. An amp I never thought I’d own simply because it’s heavy and requires maintenance above what I was willing to put into “just another head”. I was wrong. I realized if I wanted that tone then I had to reconcile myself to the obvious. Nothing else could replicate it in a lighter or less intrusive package. Does it suck moving it? Yeah. I don’t regret my decision even with those caveats. Especially with a 610 which, in all honesty, is just as important IMO.

Cabs, to me, are like 40% of the post pedalboard sound, probably 10-20% of your overall sound, and more important than most other things we pine over continually. A good head will sound like ass through a bad cab and vice versa, but to a lesser degree. My advice is to pick your cab just as wisely as you’d pick a head.

This is just my personal hypothesis, but I’d be willing to bet I’m somewhere in the Bell Curve of general consensus.

Yeah, I went through a similar process with my current band. I went through a lot of different equipment and ended up with the P-bass, Super Bassman and an Ampeg 2x15. My other basses/amps/cabs sound great (and my old Peaveys can do in a pinch), but that was the setup that sounded "right" in this band. The cab is probably the most important part of that combination, though.
 
I did not realize Killdozer was a band. I was only aware of the "incident", but the band predates it. I'm intrigued by the description of the band. Here's a link to the incident - simply over the top. I have an odd respect for the man, though I can't say I condone his actions.

Marvin Heemeyer - Wikipedia
There's great documentary about that. "Tracks" is the name, I believe.
 
I did not realize Killdozer was a band. I was only aware of the "incident", but the band predates it. I'm intrigued by the description of the band. Here's a link to the incident - simply over the top. I have an odd respect for the man, though I can't say I condone his actions.

Marvin Heemeyer - Wikipedia

There will always be a special place in my heart for people like him. :thumbsup:
 
I haven't listened yet, but I *looooove* the artwork!

Thanks! Stephen is awesome and always comes up with original ideas.

I imagine everyone here is already aware, but for anyone who isn't...if you buy this on Bandcamp today, Bandcamp is waiving its revenue share and more money goes to the artists/labels.

It sure is, that's why we waited an extra week. Every little bit helps, especially with no shows to play any time soon.
 
I've heard of Amplifier worship, but not the others, thanks from here too.

Listened to the new record on the way home, great work all around!
Free your mind and your ass will follow is a great listen. What boggles my mind is the dudes making that amazing psychedelic rock album were the same dudes that gave us Flashlight, Mothership Connection, and other legendary funk tunes. You've probably heard of them...
cini27m0pgc21.jpg


... at least that's who I assume @bassboysam is referring to. There may be a band called Free your mind and your ass will follow and I just don't know it lol