Are you wanting to play in a band? I usually tell people the cabs are probably the most important part if you are playing in a loud band.
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Stoner/Doom Bassists Thread, Part 90: Maxed Out
- Thread starter Korladis
- Start date
Are you wanting to play in a band? I usually tell people the cabs are probably the most important part if you are playing in a loud band.
Yeah, 500w through a 10, 12, or 15 is not the same loud as 2×12, 4x12, 2x15, 8x10. Especially if you're pushing a lot of low end or or down tuned.
Quality of the drivers means a lot too.
Quality of the drivers means a lot too.
Have you ran the plumes into the MBD? I just got a MBD2 and I have thought that something mid heavy might be nice to stack with it.
I honestly don't remember about the adhesive being conductive or not, but I think it was... Regardless, I'll double check the shielding material. I know that there is a wire soldered to the conductive copper tape, but where that goes, I'm not sure. Maybe I accidentally wired that to the output? Let's hope it's that simple - I don't want to spend the money for someone else to tear it down, but I can definitely resolder a ground wire or two myself. Thanks for the info - I'll have time to check it tomorrow hopefully.
Can't speak to the Plumes combo, but I run an MBD-2 as an overdrive at the end of the dirt loop on my board & the main use is stacking. I typically run my fuzz solo, but the MBD can handle it if I double down. The real winner is my AOU > MBD-2. I run the AOU to sound like a less boxy rat with more tamed treble. So it's definitely a mid-focused distortion in my setup. Great by itself for my needs, but kicking the MBD on after it gives me this big, chunky bastard of a sound that still has great definition. It's absolutely my favorite combo, and one I use sparingly for full effect in our tunes.
The MBD is just great at taking other dirt pedals. I like running OD last, so I can use it standalone or to kick my distortion into hyper-drive. The issue I often have is that some overdrives dialed in around unity will sound like a massive volume boost when fuzz or distortion push them. With the MBD, it's much easier to dial it in for a great solo sound that enhances other pedals when stacked, rather than just torching your band mix with a crazy dB jump...
Thanks for that info! AOU = Alpha Omega Ultra right?
Yessir. Was using a couple rats into the MBD for a bit, but the AOU just gave me more depth and push where I wanted it in the midrange. Anyway, the MBD is rad.
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Posts like this are exactly why I love this thread…
So, first off-Thank you for the suggestion about Line 6…
I haven’t looked at their stuff other than the Helix (which was a bit more than I wanna spend)…I watched some video on YouTube last Fall of a guy using it to get a Djent Metal tone (which admittedly sounded really sweet, but it seemed like the Helix had more tone options than I was looking for from a pedal-I’m still pretty new to playing and it seemed more like something used for recording, but I haven’t thought of that in a while, so appreciate the suggestion…
As for the Orange amp-That is an interesting point about it being lower wattage…I realize “loud” is kind of a relative term, but I am looking for something that can be loud enough that it can practically peel the pain off of the walls if need be…
I also hadn’t really considered headphone options and some of the other thing you mentioned…
For the Orange-It seems a little more straightforward which I appreciate…My main bass is an ESP/LTD PJ w 3 knobs which I actually prefer over a Schecter I occasionally use that has soap bar pickups and a lot of knobs…I actually almost bought a Pbass (and still kinda want one) just bc I appreciate the simplicity of it…
Interesting point about Mesa being most “clean” w/ tone shaping options via pedals bc that is sort of the impression I have of that amp as well…I suppose I can always add more pedals if it doesn’t sound gnarly or distorted enough…
Appreciate the advice…
Thanks! \m/
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Thanks for responding-I think you’re right about adding in a lot of effects pedals to get the sound you want-Great if the amp can do some of that, but I’ve also looked at multiple fuzz pedals and at some point I know that’s probably going to factor into the equation…
If the pedals are already making the amount of dirt I’m after then I suppose the distortion/eq options on the amp becomes kind of a moot point…
Thanks! \m/
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Thanks for responding…Glad you are liking the Mesa (I think it’s my front runner at the moment)…
Probably doesn’t hurt that Metallica used Mesa at one point…
Granted, I’m looking to start a Doom Metal band eventually so not looking to replicate that exact sound, but good to know that they are versatile enough to work with the genre (plus this also tells me that they can get plenty loud)…
Traa Daniels from P.O.D. (another one of my favorite bands) also uses Mesa so that’s another bump for them in my book…
Thanks for the feedback…
Thanks! \m/
Nominated for quote of the week.
Of those 3, Mesa is tops in terms of quality and I'd probably go for it. I've seen to many dead ampeg 7s that I won't touch those, revised version or not.
It's kinda scary how true that is about flipping to find what works in a band. That's one huge reason that once I get enough lows to fill the room without muddiness, I push the mids and high mids hard on my amp to sit in the mix. Might not sound great on its own to some, but shines in a mix for sure.
As a caveat, I know enough to be dangerous hahaha, but there are plenty here that probably know more than I do about amps.
@El_Charro, not to confuse you, but what @xJasonSmithx said is probably the most important. Sure 800-1000w would be great and you'd never need more, but 500w works just fine if you have the right amount of speakers. Hell, I never went past noon on my master with my Ashdown 500w amp into a 4ohm Mesa 2x12 cab and that was loud as hell. Where the speakers are at in relation to your ear also affects how the stage mix sounds to you as well.
Running your amp down to 4ohms, having at least the equivalent to 4x10/2x12/1x15 would be minimal for me with 300w to get the volume and occasional cleaning headroom I'd want. But with solid state, 500w would be preferred if clean headroom is what you want.
As a caveat, I know enough to be dangerous hahaha, but there are plenty here that probably know more than I do about amps.
@El_Charro, not to confuse you, but what @xJasonSmithx said is probably the most important. Sure 800-1000w would be great and you'd never need more, but 500w works just fine if you have the right amount of speakers. Hell, I never went past noon on my master with my Ashdown 500w amp into a 4ohm Mesa 2x12 cab and that was loud as hell. Where the speakers are at in relation to your ear also affects how the stage mix sounds to you as well.
Running your amp down to 4ohms, having at least the equivalent to 4x10/2x12/1x15 would be minimal for me with 300w to get the volume and occasional cleaning headroom I'd want. But with solid state, 500w would be preferred if clean headroom is what you want.
Well, my bass noise issue is fixed. Took off the cavity cover, inspected some wires, and lo and behold - one of the ground wires on a pickup had gone rogue and was flying around all willy-nilly in there. Tested it with a quick bit of electrical tape to where it SHOULD go (I'll fix it right soon, my toddler needed me so it was just a proof of concept) and it's at the same approximate noise level as before. Glad I know enough to be dangerous sometimes!
Life is good - wrapping up my degree at the end of next week, and I'll actually have time to play again! My gear is functioning, got a sweet new bass HM-2... Hope all of you are having as good of a time as I am right now, or are at least getting there!
Life is good - wrapping up my degree at the end of next week, and I'll actually have time to play again! My gear is functioning, got a sweet new bass HM-2... Hope all of you are having as good of a time as I am right now, or are at least getting there!
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Just curious, but why were they dead???…
I may not have this right in my head, but I thought (???) Ampegs are mostly tube amps (not steady state)…
From the very limited amount that I’ve read on the subject- my understanding that tube amps are more likely to have issues especially if you move them a lot…
NO idea I’d what I just typed here is true or not (To anyone reading this-Please feel free to correct me if the statement above is not correct)…
I also thought that Tube amps are also heavier (another reason Ampeg would be third choice)…130 lbs for a bass cabinet doesn’t sound like anything I would want to transport on a regular basis…
Thanks! \m/
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Thank you for weighing in…
Apologies if this is a colossally stupid question, but what is the primary difference between 8 ohms cabs and 4 ohms??? I don’t know much about ohms (outside of it being the title of the Deftones last album)…
I’m just playing thru a basic practice combo amp right now (a whopping 120 watts)…
I don’t think it’s even at 9 o’clock to get me sufficient volume as it’s just me in my basement and I’m not competing against a drummer, a guitarist and a singer, but get that I probably need at least 500 watts to be heard in a band setting…
From what I understand I don’t want to hook up a higher wattage amp to a lower watt cabinet (so if I get an 800watt amp I don’t wanna run it thru a 600 watt cabinet bc it could potentially blow it out) <——That statement may be erroneous, so please feel free to correct me…
I tried to read up on ohms on this site and I got SUPER confused as to what exactly it means when it comes to tone…
From what I could discern it sounds like it’s got something to do with splitting the signal into two separate cabinets from the amp, but it turned into one of those threads where two people started arguing and it descended into name calling (I know everyone here is SHOCKED that two people disagreed on an Internet chat board)… ;-)
Dumb jokes aside though-What am I looking for in a cabinet exactly???
Let’s say I end up with the Mesa Subway 800-What should I be looking for to pair that with if I want it going into two Mesa cabinets???…Can the 800watts be “split” between two 400watt cabs so it’s not over stressing a single cab or is that running into the issue I cited above where I don’t think that you want a more powerful amp running into a lower wattage cab???
Also-You mentioned woofer size-I thought (???) that what essentially made a bass can “loud” was how much air it can push out…
So-I understand there are 4x10s and 1 x 15 cabs…As a general rule (in layman’s terms bc I’m pretty ignorant here and NOT an audio engineer)-Do 4x10s tend to be “punchier” vs a 1 x 15???-Which push out more air (I get that this may come down to some people’s personal preference and opinion here)…
This is another reason why I haven’t quite jumped to buying a head and combo (aside from budget)…
Eventually, sure, but in the meantime I need to learn more about how the amp head and the cab work together and how to get the right combination…
Anyone that wants to weigh in to educate me-Thanks in advance…
There is only so much research I can do online and asking more experienced players I feel like is a better resource than just reading up the mechanics of how things work…
Thanks! \m/
@El_Charro that's a lot of info to deal up and I would recommend taking time to read up through searches and threads as they can be entertaining and educational, but essentially responses to most of your questions below (as far as my limited knowledge goes at least)
:
- ampeg make a wide range of amps- solid state (including lightweight class d and traditional transformer types) and valve heads
- valve amps need a little extra care when moving immediately after a gig and require more maintenance as a rule of thumb over time.
- valve amps are heavy as they have massive transformers to deliver sound and typically come in ply built casing that needs to house valves and transformers.
- ohms is a measure of resistance (impedance). An amp can only operate down to a certain threshold (normally 4 ohms, sometimes 2 ohms). It needs to be matched with a cabinet that doesn't take it below that threshold or it'll overheat. E.g matching a 4 ohm min amp with a 2 ohm cabinet). Tone isn't a factor in this, but in solid state heads, the maximum output of power will be at the lowest impedence. Valve amps work differently and need to be impedence matched exactly and output the same power at any impedence. Worth doing reading and searches on this topic to fully understand it, including wiring cabs in series and parallel.
- there's no hard and fast rule to power matching a head and cab. You can't under power a cab and you can blow speakers with less power than they are rated for several reasons....too much low end for too long being one. I normally go for cabs with a higher power rating than the head.
- to pair with the Mesa, I'm sure two Mesa cabs would work well. Based on your level of experience I'd strongly suggest buying used and work out what works once youre in a band. This is unlikely to be a right first time decision. You could probably get away with a single 4ohm 212 at rehearsals and maybe gigs. Most 410s (8 or 4 ohms) would cover you for most stuff. The Mesa running down to 2 ohms means you can plug in 1x8 ohm, 1x4ohm, 2x4 ohm cabinets, 4x8 ohm cabinets or 1x4 ohm + 2x8 ohm cabs (running cabs in parallel) again read up on this topic. Running in parallel shares the power of the amp based on the resistance of the cabs. E.g. running 2 4 ohm cabs in parallel shares the power equally between cabs.
- speaker size tells you how big the speaker is, nothing about tone. Cone volume largely determines volume output based on air movement. There are so many variables in cab design beyond the woofer that you just can't tell. 12s and 10s are most popular I'd say at the moment in manufacturing. There's loads of lightweight and innovative brands to consider it's a really great time to be a bassist shopping for gear, depending on budget.
My recommendations would be:
1. Read read and keep reading on forums and electrical sites
2. Buy second hand
3. Subject to transport I'd look at a decent 212 or 410 to start with (4 ohms if you buy the Mesa) - look at any cabs that fit your weight need and broadly match Mesa power handling
4. Accept you're on a learning curve and you'll go through a gear journey to get the sound you want in a package that works financially, weight and quality wise.
Sorry bit of a brain dump....hopefully helpful.
:
- ampeg make a wide range of amps- solid state (including lightweight class d and traditional transformer types) and valve heads
- valve amps need a little extra care when moving immediately after a gig and require more maintenance as a rule of thumb over time.
- valve amps are heavy as they have massive transformers to deliver sound and typically come in ply built casing that needs to house valves and transformers.
- ohms is a measure of resistance (impedance). An amp can only operate down to a certain threshold (normally 4 ohms, sometimes 2 ohms). It needs to be matched with a cabinet that doesn't take it below that threshold or it'll overheat. E.g matching a 4 ohm min amp with a 2 ohm cabinet). Tone isn't a factor in this, but in solid state heads, the maximum output of power will be at the lowest impedence. Valve amps work differently and need to be impedence matched exactly and output the same power at any impedence. Worth doing reading and searches on this topic to fully understand it, including wiring cabs in series and parallel.
- there's no hard and fast rule to power matching a head and cab. You can't under power a cab and you can blow speakers with less power than they are rated for several reasons....too much low end for too long being one. I normally go for cabs with a higher power rating than the head.
- to pair with the Mesa, I'm sure two Mesa cabs would work well. Based on your level of experience I'd strongly suggest buying used and work out what works once youre in a band. This is unlikely to be a right first time decision. You could probably get away with a single 4ohm 212 at rehearsals and maybe gigs. Most 410s (8 or 4 ohms) would cover you for most stuff. The Mesa running down to 2 ohms means you can plug in 1x8 ohm, 1x4ohm, 2x4 ohm cabinets, 4x8 ohm cabinets or 1x4 ohm + 2x8 ohm cabs (running cabs in parallel) again read up on this topic. Running in parallel shares the power of the amp based on the resistance of the cabs. E.g. running 2 4 ohm cabs in parallel shares the power equally between cabs.
- speaker size tells you how big the speaker is, nothing about tone. Cone volume largely determines volume output based on air movement. There are so many variables in cab design beyond the woofer that you just can't tell. 12s and 10s are most popular I'd say at the moment in manufacturing. There's loads of lightweight and innovative brands to consider it's a really great time to be a bassist shopping for gear, depending on budget.
My recommendations would be:
1. Read read and keep reading on forums and electrical sites
2. Buy second hand
3. Subject to transport I'd look at a decent 212 or 410 to start with (4 ohms if you buy the Mesa) - look at any cabs that fit your weight need and broadly match Mesa power handling
4. Accept you're on a learning curve and you'll go through a gear journey to get the sound you want in a package that works financially, weight and quality wise.
Sorry bit of a brain dump....hopefully helpful.
I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing
On a separate note, any stand out album recommendations from anyone so far this year? I'm in need of some new listening. Just got into King buffalo's latest album which is a bit tool-esque and also got warning, watching from a distance still on heavy rotation. Welcome any recommendations
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Nearly every amp you'll look at will be rated for different output wattage depending on the 'ohm load' or impedance. Most of them will have an 8 ohm output rating, a 4 ohm output rating, and some will have a 2 ohm output rating (if they are capable of running at 2 ohms). For example, the Mesa D-800 puts out 400 watts running an 8 ohm load, and 800 watts when running at 4 and 2 ohms.
The impedance/ohm load is dictated by the cab(s) connected to your amp. Cabs are typically rated at either 8 ohms or 4 ohms, and manufacturers will always specify. For example, if you end up buying a couple of 1x12 cabinets or 1x15 cabinets, each of those will most likely be 8 ohm cabs. If you look at 4x10 cabs, you'll find a mix with some being 8 ohm cabs and others being 4 ohms. 8x10 or 2x15s will almost always be 4 ohms. The key thing here is that pairing different cabs changes the total impedance or ohm load on your amplifier. If you pair two 8 ohm cabinets, that results in a 4 ohm load for the amp. If you pair two 4 ohm cabinets, that becomes a 2 ohm load. If you're just using a single cabinet, the load presented to your amp is whatever that single cab is rated at (8 or 4 ohms). You can get into impedance calculators if you start mixing 8 and 4 ohm cabs, run more than two cabs, or grab a rare cabinet rated at something other than 4 or 8 ohms.
Where this may come into play is if you decide you want to ultimately run two cabs, but you only want to buy one cab to get up and running. The Mesa (and a number of other amps) can handle 8, 4, and 2 ohm loads, which gives you some flexibility. So if you are gunning for two cabs and you decide to buy two 8 ohm cabs, while running a single cab you're only getting that 8 ohm rating of 400 watts from the amp. When you add a second 8 ohm cab, the impedance comes down to 4 ohms and you're getting the 800 watt rating. If you go the two cab route and get two 4 ohm cabs, you'll get the full 800 watts running either cab solo, but combined you'll be at 2 ohms. This is essentially the same wattage, but amps generally run a little harder/hotter when you get down to 2 ohms.
I used some very broad/basic examples here. All that said, it's definitely worth reading up on or finding some detailed youtube explanations if that's your preference. The info is out there, and it's worth familiarizing yourself for the sake of not damaging your gear. Additionally, tube/valve amps operate differently with regard to the impedance/load matching...that's another rabbit hole.
Certainly not a bad thing unless you're drastically overpowering the cab and cranking the hell out of your gain/volume. If you're listening to your setup, you'll hear your speakers start to struggle and woof and fart out before they explode. So there's no problem running an 800 watt amp into a cab rated at only 300 or 400 watts, as long as you're paying attention. It's not much different than having a home stereo receiver capable of delivering 100 watts and hooking it up to a couple of bookshelf speakers only rated to handle 15 watts. It's only a problem if you get reckless with the gain/volume.
ETA: Looks like someone beat me to some of this, but hopefully reading it a few different ways is helpful.
Well, it's not doom-y, or heavy, but I've been listening to a lot of The Jam lately, and I'm really digging Bruce Foxton's bass work. Busy, but not overbearing. Lots of interesting runs and counterpoint to the guitar work.
