String tension strangeness

[Geepers]

I have two identical 31” scale fretless basses. I put long-scale Chromes on one and medium-scale Chromes on the other. Unexpectedly the medium scale strings feel to be under higher tension. I don’t think I’m imagining it - it actually feels very noticeable - but hey, stranger things have happened .

 

[Ricky Rioli]

The medium scale strings are designed to be at played at that scale length, the long scale are having to be left slack compared to what they are designed to do, so I guess what you've found makes sense?

 

[Zooberwerx]

I have two identical 31” scale fretless basses. I put long-scale Chromes on one and medium-scale Chromes on the other. Unexpectedly the medium scale strings feel to be under higher tension. I don’t think I’m imagining it - it actually feels very noticeable - but hey, stranger things have happened .

How did you squeeze long-scales on 31"? I'd imagine the full-thickness wraps would be hitting the machine head posts. Pics may help.

Riis

 

[michael_t]

I have two identical 31” scale fretless basses. I put long-scale Chromes on one and medium-scale Chromes on the other. Unexpectedly the medium scale strings feel to be under higher tension. I don’t think I’m imagining it - it actually feels very noticeable - but hey, stranger things have happened .

Two sets of the same strings in the same gauges on two basses of the same scale length... The "tension" (as in pulling weight) on them are the same regardless of the "winding length" on the strings.

What you're feeling is the difference in stiffness/flexibility due to the small variance in the setup, ie action, amount of neck relief, etc.

 

[Jay2U]

I have two identical 31” scale fretless basses. I put long-scale Chromes on one and medium-scale Chromes on the other. Unexpectedly the medium scale strings feel to be under higher tension. I don’t think I’m imagining it - it actually feels very noticeable - but hey, stranger things have happened .

Maybe they use a fatter steel core for the shorter strings, in order to get some extra tension?

 

[Zooberwerx]

Two sets of the same strings in the same gauges on two basses of the same scale length... The "tension" (as in pulling weight) on them are the same regardless of the "winding length" on the strings.

What you're feeling is the difference in stiffness/flexibility due to the small variance in the setup, ie action, amount of neck relief, etc.

My concern is based more on the string install, especially if the exaggerated winding length hits the post as opposed to transitioning between the nut and post. IME, this all too frequently results in a "leaf spring" effect (...not a straight draw) which flexes and rebounds when depressed on the fingerboard. This has a more profound impact than conventional afterlength compliance.

Riis

 

[Tim Skaggs]

Different neck relief. If you have two identical basses with the exact same strings on each, the one with more neck relief will feel like the strings are higher tension / stiffer. It only takes a few thousands of relief difference to change the feel.

 

[HaphAsSard]

I have two identical 31” scale fretless basses. I put long-scale Chromes on one and medium-scale Chromes on the other. Unexpectedly the medium scale strings feel to be under higher tension. I don’t think I’m imagining it - it actually feels very noticeable - but hey, stranger things have happened .

First off, are we talking about identical gauges? a specific long-scale set of D'Addario Chromes i.e. ECB81, vs the lone medium-scale set they make ECB81M?*
As said above, is setup the same?
Are you sure you're plucking/picking the string at the exact same spot?



*

The medium scale strings are designed to be at played at that scale length, the long scale are having to be left slack compared to what they are designed to do, so I guess what you've found makes sense?

Maybe they use a fatter steel core for the shorter strings, in order to get some extra tension?

That wouldn't be unheard of, but it is not the case: tensions for the ECB81 set (valid for 34" scale), once multiplied by the (ratio of scale lengths)squared, yield the same tensions that are quoted for 32" on the ECB81M, which means the strings have the same linear mass. While there is the ghost of a chance they are built differently but happen to be identical in mass per linear inch, in every likelihood they're simply the same strings, only wound shorter.

 

[Ricky Rioli]

but it is not the case.....
.....in every likelihood

Telling people that they're are simply wrong when you're armed with what you believe to be a strong clue rather than watertight proof is not a great habit to be get into (unless driving people away from engaging in calm, reasonable discussion is your actual aim)

 

[HaphAsSard]

Telling people that they're are simply wrong when you're armed with what you believe to be a strong clue rather than watertight proof is not a great habit to be get into (unless driving people away from engaging in calm, reasonable discussion is your actual aim)

What you're accusing me of only holds if one stops at the first sentence. I literally provided you and everyone else with all the elements to make up one's mind, given the evidence at my disposal. If you call that wanting to drive away people from reasonable discussion, I don't know what to tell you. By the way, I don't see you* consistently calling out people who go around categorically stating their opinions/tastes as fact, and there's plenty here.

* [I feel like adding "but I might just have missed it, I don't patrol your forum posting", but at this point all caveats I add out of intellectual honesty seem to be taken the opposite way.]

 

[basslust]

My concern is based more on the string install, especially if the exaggerated winding length hits the post as opposed to transitioning between the nut and post. IME, this all too frequently results in a "leaf spring" effect (...not a straight draw) which flexes and rebounds when depressed on the fingerboard. This has a more profound impact than conventional afterlength compliance.

Riis

Do you have a picture of what you're referring to here? I have exclusively medium scale instruments at this point, and so have, in many instances, ended up winding actual string around the post. I didn't get the impression that this was a problem for many strings, and in fact some basses come like this from the factory (JMJ Mustang, which has regular long gauge Fender flats on a short scale). Just trying to understand exactly the concern here.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Do you have a picture of what you're referring to here? I have exclusively medium scale instruments at this point, and so have, in many instances, ended up winding actual string around the post. I didn't get the impression that this was a problem for many strings, and in fact some basses come like this from the factory (JMJ Mustang, which has regular long gauge Fender flats on a short scale). Just trying to understand exactly the concern here.

At the moment, I do not have a pic. It can be an issue but not to all people at all times. I much prefer the strings to transition as described.

Correction...found one:

Riis

 

[HueyFreeman]

Telling people that they're are simply wrong when you're armed with what you believe to be a strong clue rather than watertight proof is not a great habit to be get into (unless driving people away from engaging in calm, reasonable discussion is your actual aim)

Do you have anything to add that may counter @HaphAsSard? Because it sounds like you're simply telling him he's wrong without adding any watertight proof.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Different neck relief. If you have two identical basses with the exact same strings on each, the one with more neck relief will feel like the strings are higher tension / stiffer. It only takes a few thousands of relief difference to change the feel.

I think this is too frequently under-addressed. I'll also add nut slot height / depth: if under-cut, it can produce a perceptible increase in string tension under the left hand. Fretless bass set-up requires some extra finesse which is beyond my real world skill-set....and glaringly absent on any number of factory set-ups!

Riis

 

[laklandplayer]

Maybe they use a fatter steel core for the shorter strings, in order to get some extra tension?

That's correct, they use larger core wires on shorter scale strings generally to prevent floppiness, I use long scale strings on my Medium and Short Scale basses and just go with a little larger gauges on the short scale to tighten it up without raising the tension. I'm a low tension, round core guy just to make it easier on my hands and they generally have better sustain and are much easier to bend and use vibrato.

 

[Jay2U]

That's correct, they use larger core wires on shorter scale strings generally to prevent floppiness, I use long scale strings on my Medium and Short Scale basses and just go with a little larger gauges on the short scale to tighten it up without raising the tension. I'm a low tension, round core guy just to make it easier on my hands and they generally have better sustain and are much easier to bend and use vibrato.

I fully agree on your string choice. Floppy doesn't mean sloppy.

 

[Prodigus Filius]

Long, super long, medium, short, XL Chromes all have the same weight per linear inch ( the equation aint too hard) and the only difference is the tension differences based on scale length. In other words, the innards of the strings regardless of length, are the same. If the density was different the unit weights would have to be as well. Which is not the case, given D'addario's own tension specs. That's not to rule out features of an individual bass's construction that contributes to perceptions

 

[Prodigus Filius]

As an example ,the outdated D'addario tensions pdf , lists the unit weights for the .100 long scale and super long .100 as being .00189041

 

[HaphAsSard]

As an example ,the outdated D'addario tensions pdf , lists the unit weights for the .100 long scale and super long .100 as being .00189041

There was one exception - or, well, four if you will:

unit weight figures for the XB050S, XB070S, XB085S and XB105S, i.e. the individual strings which made up the the EXL160S set (nickel plated steel roundwound short-scale, gauges 50-70-85-105), showed them to be more massive than the same-gauged long-scale counterparts XLB050, XLB070, XLB085 and XLB105 (EXL160), which indeed pointed to something going on with their construction (and larger cores being a good guess as to what exactly).

In contrast, the XB045S, XB065S, XB080S and XB100S in the same product line (EXL170S set) had identical unit weights to the XLB045, XLB065, XLB080 and XLB100 (EXL170); so did the short-scale Half Rounds and ProSteels, as well as (at a glance) all the remaining non-standard (medium. superlong) scale bass products, compared to their corresponding LS versions.

https://www.daddario.com/globalassets/pdfs/accessories/tension_chart_13934.pdf

By the way, comparing the current EXL160S with the EXL160, tensionwise, shows they don't bother to make even the one (50-105) shortie set that way anymore:

 

[Pier_]

That's correct, they use larger core wires on shorter scale strings generally to prevent floppiness,

I'm sorry, I've used for years the ECB81 in medium scale (on a Mustang), short scale (on a Gibson SG, Danelectro Longhorn and Ibanez Mikro) and long scale on different Fender basses.
never ever experienced this difference in construction.

same with every short, medium and long scale set of D'Addario EXL and Prosteel, and Ernie Ball.

the only set that may differ is the Rotosound RS77 set in long and short/medium scale, because it changes in the outer wrapping, which on short scales is flatter and smoother.