jive1
Commercial User
I see where you're coming from. Hate the sin, love the sinner.
I won't vouch for anyone else, but if I didn't love the guy, I wouldn't waste my time on him.
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Taking a Stance
- Thread starter bluewine
- Start date
I see where you're coming from. Hate the sin, love the sinner.
I won't vouch for anyone else, but if I didn't love the guy, I wouldn't waste my time on him.
I don't think i've ever seen an ultimatum that resulted in anything other than the ultimatum giver being told to **** off
In my opinion, you could have made the same point that I thought you were making without completely dispensing with the person...possibly even trying to help him work it out.
I also think you are blurring "mistake" and "accident." A mistake is an action taken in poor judgment. If he were willing to see and own up to his actions being wrong and in bad judgment, I'd hope you could respect that. You give him no room to make that recognition though.
I don't see what you're getting at, the dude has been saying he has no regrets the whole time and still hasn't admitted to making up the other offer which he obviously did
Drpepper, you are wrong, he was asked many times to clairify himself and totally ignored tham all while telling us he was very comfortable with his position.
At any time at all, up to and including now, he could come in and say "ya, I guess I shouldn't have done that" but he chooses not to.
Please understand that to some of us, being brutally honest with someone IS helping them. I do not see the value of downplaying the actions he need to be aware are unacceptable. I do think it is valuable to be completely up front with someone and thats what I'm doing. He did ask after all.
He is not condemmed here. He will not be shunned. Nobody is calling for his resignation from TB, But to really help him he needs to see how strongly people will react to this type of manipulation. To do that, we have to tell it like it is.
-eSmith.
At any time at all, up to and including now, he could come in and say "ya, I guess I shouldn't have done that" but he chooses not to.
Please understand that to some of us, being brutally honest with someone IS helping them. I do not see the value of downplaying the actions he need to be aware are unacceptable. I do think it is valuable to be completely up front with someone and thats what I'm doing. He did ask after all.
He is not condemmed here. He will not be shunned. Nobody is calling for his resignation from TB, But to really help him he needs to see how strongly people will react to this type of manipulation. To do that, we have to tell it like it is.
-eSmith.
Hey, he posted what he did and asked what people thought. Lying is a bad move and just wrong. He asked, no fault in telling that like it is or as you see it.
I don't know if esmith really means what I'm reading...I'm reading an attack on the person as being completely vile and irredeemable
"You 100% are NOT professional"
Come on. I'm reading that as complete condemnation. His actions were not professional. He was not a professional in this situation.
"there is only one way to deal with a liar"
Yes, semantically, someone who lies is a liar, but there is really a deeper meaning when you really CALL someone a liar...like it is the essense of their being. It's too strong a label for this situation.
If you don't think so...uh...have you ever lied? The answer is yes. We have all lied at some point. Then you are a liar too and no better.
"Your own actions make you unfit for any band"
Too much.
And in my opinion, you're going beyond "telling it like it is," that's all. I can see you disagree.
Nobody is saying he is not redeamable. I am saying that under the circumstances presented, it is 100% clear he did not act professional. And thats what I said. The unredeamable part is just something your reading into it that really isn't there.
There rteally is only one way to deal with a liar. My dad taught me that early on. If you lie, nobody will want anything to do with you. Thats the way it should be, where is the deterent if all he gets is sugarcoated phrases and instant forgivness?
I told lies as a child. Got caught, got no sympathy from my dad, and because of that unwavering stance I learned where the line was and made sure not to cross it.
When a person is cornerd for something, really put on the spot, and out of desperation tells a lie to avoid a bad circumstance, I can understand it was a mistake in judgment by someone under pressure to provide an answer.
Thats not the case here. he wasn't put on the spot. He deviously concocted a scheme to decieve others all on his own time to meet a goal he set for himself. To him, this was not poor judgment but a firm statement that this is an acceptable way to get what you want. He then claimed to all of us to have no regret. I see that as him taking pride in his actions.
-eSmith.
There rteally is only one way to deal with a liar. My dad taught me that early on. If you lie, nobody will want anything to do with you. Thats the way it should be, where is the deterent if all he gets is sugarcoated phrases and instant forgivness?
I told lies as a child. Got caught, got no sympathy from my dad, and because of that unwavering stance I learned where the line was and made sure not to cross it.
When a person is cornerd for something, really put on the spot, and out of desperation tells a lie to avoid a bad circumstance, I can understand it was a mistake in judgment by someone under pressure to provide an answer.
Thats not the case here. he wasn't put on the spot. He deviously concocted a scheme to decieve others all on his own time to meet a goal he set for himself. To him, this was not poor judgment but a firm statement that this is an acceptable way to get what you want. He then claimed to all of us to have no regret. I see that as him taking pride in his actions.
-eSmith.
So, what was it that you were going to miss out on by waiting? That has yet to be made clear.
I assume it was something so awesome that you are now quite busy preparing for the onslaught of gigs and the $$ to start rolling in.
It must be that, otherwise you'd be posting about the new awesome band.
tough love and all might make sense, but I agree with drpepper.
Statements like the below are way, WAY over the top and uncalled for, and trying to psychoanalyze the guy, a stranger, based on this one incident, in itself is just kind of nutty. IMO.
"You 100% are NOT professional"
"there is only one way to deal with a liar"
"Your own actions make you unfit for any band"
Statements like the below are way, WAY over the top and uncalled for, and trying to psychoanalyze the guy, a stranger, based on this one incident, in itself is just kind of nutty. IMO.
"You 100% are NOT professional"
"there is only one way to deal with a liar"
"Your own actions make you unfit for any band"
Here's my take...
Blue, I've read many of your threads, and believe me, I feel for you - I've been lucky over the years to have my own bands that I've started become fairly successful (as far as you can be successful playing locally in cover bands). I've also established many contacts along the journey so that if I had the need or want to find or start a new band, it would only take a few phone calls. I couldn't imagine starting from scratch and having to audition at this point in my life - more power to you for keeping at it! I wish you the best of luck in finding the right situation.
That said, I don't understand what you're doing here with THIS situation. Comments you've made makes it pretty clear that you're NOT interested in this band, so why give a deadline at all? Whether they tell you tomorrow or in 2 weeks, do you really want to play bass in this group? If you DON'T, I feel you should've just said "Thanks, but no thanks." And if you ARE still interested, then I would've let them finish their auditions and call, while at the same time kept looking for other options. You could either not say anything and wait and look, or even tell them that you're still looking (that would imply that they better grab you up if they liked you and don't want to lose you to someone else...)
I really don't understand why you felt you had to lie to force their decision if you don't really want to play with them anyways. If they call you back and say "Hey, we'll take you!", are you going to all of a sudden have a change of heart and WANT to be part of this group?
I'll tell you this - many years ago when I was putting together one of my 'start-up' bands (that's going on 20 years now...), we held auditions for a guitar player and finally found a decent player who seemed into the group. 4 months later, it was obvious that he wanted to go a completely different direction from what we were doing, and I confronted him at a rehearsal about it. His response was that he only took the gig to play with people and get better, but never wanted to play the music we were playing.
He got what he wanted out of it, and wasted all our time for 4 months - then we had to start auditioning again. To this day, I don't respect him for that, and if he ever popped up in/around something I was involved in, he'd be gone, or I'd pack it because I wouldn't work with this idiot again.
Just my experiences and thoughts....
Blue, I've read many of your threads, and believe me, I feel for you - I've been lucky over the years to have my own bands that I've started become fairly successful (as far as you can be successful playing locally in cover bands). I've also established many contacts along the journey so that if I had the need or want to find or start a new band, it would only take a few phone calls. I couldn't imagine starting from scratch and having to audition at this point in my life - more power to you for keeping at it! I wish you the best of luck in finding the right situation.
That said, I don't understand what you're doing here with THIS situation. Comments you've made makes it pretty clear that you're NOT interested in this band, so why give a deadline at all? Whether they tell you tomorrow or in 2 weeks, do you really want to play bass in this group? If you DON'T, I feel you should've just said "Thanks, but no thanks." And if you ARE still interested, then I would've let them finish their auditions and call, while at the same time kept looking for other options. You could either not say anything and wait and look, or even tell them that you're still looking (that would imply that they better grab you up if they liked you and don't want to lose you to someone else...)
I really don't understand why you felt you had to lie to force their decision if you don't really want to play with them anyways. If they call you back and say "Hey, we'll take you!", are you going to all of a sudden have a change of heart and WANT to be part of this group?
I'll tell you this - many years ago when I was putting together one of my 'start-up' bands (that's going on 20 years now...), we held auditions for a guitar player and finally found a decent player who seemed into the group. 4 months later, it was obvious that he wanted to go a completely different direction from what we were doing, and I confronted him at a rehearsal about it. His response was that he only took the gig to play with people and get better, but never wanted to play the music we were playing.
He got what he wanted out of it, and wasted all our time for 4 months - then we had to start auditioning again. To this day, I don't respect him for that, and if he ever popped up in/around something I was involved in, he'd be gone, or I'd pack it because I wouldn't work with this idiot again.
Just my experiences and thoughts....
I agree, the truth is too much for some people to hear, especially when it's about them.
How my statements are over the top is a surprise to me.
Not dealing with people who lie to you is over the top? So you let people lie to you over and over and say nothing? Seems thats kind of nutty behaviour to me.
You think lieing to others makes you fit for a band? I'd have to ask what you got against the band? seems kind of nutty to me.
And you are correct, I guess when people lie to you it is 100% professional..... That is, if your profession is being a con man. Otherwise, I'd have to say that maintaining respect for people who lie to you to gain an advantage over you is kind of nutty, don't you think?
Ya, Right I'm the over the top nutty one here...... Thats perfectly clear now..... Thanks for that... Sheesh!
-eSmith.
How my statements are over the top is a surprise to me.
Not dealing with people who lie to you is over the top? So you let people lie to you over and over and say nothing? Seems thats kind of nutty behaviour to me.
You think lieing to others makes you fit for a band? I'd have to ask what you got against the band? seems kind of nutty to me.
And you are correct, I guess when people lie to you it is 100% professional..... That is, if your profession is being a con man. Otherwise, I'd have to say that maintaining respect for people who lie to you to gain an advantage over you is kind of nutty, don't you think?
Ya, Right I'm the over the top nutty one here...... Thats perfectly clear now..... Thanks for that... Sheesh!
-eSmith.
As far as I can see,the 'people' who react strongly to this kind of manipulation,as you put it,seems to be YOU,more than anyone.He told a fib,for goodness sake,to try and get an answer.OK had he been eventually asked to join the band,we have to wonder if he would have put his heart and soul into it,having said that he had little real interest in the project,but some of the language you are using here seems a little over the top.
I wonder why...........
Let's walk this back a little...
I am in complete agreement with you that lying here was wrong and a bad move.
I agree with the sentiment that the way he dealt with this wasn't "professional."
I agree with you that a deception and manipulation is no way to enter a relationship with a group of musicians.
You said those things, in essence, but you said more. You said THIS GUY IS NOT a professional. You basically, directly called him a liar (calling someone out on a lie and calling that person a liar are different). You said HE IS NOT fit to be in ANY band. These are indictments of his person, not just of something he did.
A litmus test that can be used is to imagine your words in a face to face interaction.
I don't believe you would have used the same words if you and bluewine were sitting around talking about this, unless you were trying to provoke a fist fight.
I don't believe that's the case. I think you simply aren't appreciating how your words are coming across.
And esmith, I think we all have a tendency to do this - not attacking you over it. It's nearly impossible to write tone. It's harder than that to read tone. Word choice is all we have to work with.
i think that start ups definitely require a leap of faith from all concerned.....if the enthusiasm is not there from jump st. i doubt many would get off the ground...and why not.....even if things don't work out it's not the bastinado.......playing at rehearsal is still playing,and last time i did it i had a blast.....a hired gun mindset is not the way for these things.....
assuming bluewine did lie in this case, i'll side with eSmith. yeah i'd phrase it differently but the sentiment is essentially the same.
the thing that really bothers me about this is why? people normally pull a stunt like this (lie, or fabricate if you prefer) when they want something... so, what does bluewine want? i'm guessing he doesn't want to play in a band that's more or less beneath him, he pretty much said so, but who knows? there's gotta be more to the story... c'mon blue give it to us.
hopefully the whole story will reveal that i (and others) owe you an apology? (for jumping to the wrong conclusions)
edit: drpepper your face to face litmus test is a good one and i think you make some good points too...
the thing that really bothers me about this is why? people normally pull a stunt like this (lie, or fabricate if you prefer) when they want something... so, what does bluewine want? i'm guessing he doesn't want to play in a band that's more or less beneath him, he pretty much said so, but who knows? there's gotta be more to the story... c'mon blue give it to us.
hopefully the whole story will reveal that i (and others) owe you an apology? (for jumping to the wrong conclusions)
edit: drpepper your face to face litmus test is a good one and i think you make some good points too...
It's not a long time ,I agree.
I am like anyone else. At times something comes along in life and your just going to say No, I'm not doing this. It's really nothing more than that.
I also agree that they should now what their options are. I don't blame them for that or anything.
Again, I respect the band too, however, the plan was the audition was supose to happen tonight and they would let me know their decision tomorrow.
When the audition for the other bass playe was extended untill next week,I was no longer on board. It was nothing personal.
Seems pretty simple to me, just one of those things.
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