TC Electronics RebelHead 450 - Rebel with a Cause

[markorbit]

Can't understand the bad feeling at all. Sure, when all is said and done I suspect that there was a marketing reason driving it, but that's no big deal is it?

Shame as the TC guys come across like they know their stuff and this could be a quality product worthy of checking out.

 

[MIJ-VI]

An equation for Class D bass amp market penetration:

Older, established bass players = disposable income + age-related health issues impelling the adoption of lighter gear + decades worth of music industry contacts positioning them to propel word-of-mouth sales = more bass amps sold.

But then, what do I know about marketing...

 

[phippsyg]

Given some of the other posts I'm a little frightened to say I have been emailed my offer, but the main reason for my post is I was able to spend some time with the rig today at the Basspeople store where I work.

My first impression was that it is loud and warm sounding. By using the shift knob I dialled in some really low bass frequencies, so low and loud my friends trousers actually loosely flapped a little at his legs as he stood in front of the cabs. ( I was playing through a 212 linked to a 210)

The tube sound is the most convincing simulator I've heard. I found it did seem to break up a little early though. Maybe a little more time spent with the unit will allow me to fatten up the sound without it breaking up.My only other gripe is the tuner seems to be constantly reading so the notes are always flashing around (you may be able to turn this off but I couldn't find how). I guess you don't do a gig looking at your rig hopefully so it shouldn't be a biggie.

I was also impressed with how full my g string sounded. I guess this is because of the spectracomp.

Anyways thats my first impression, I'm looking forward to gigging with it and seeing how it pulls up on stage. Not sure if I should have posted on the end of this thread but it seemed the logical spot given it's talking about the head, but I know it has turned a little sour so sorry if I should have started a new thread. (Edit-I just did)

 

[psychotiger]

Please forgive me if I missed the answer to my previous question in all this chatter about endorsements, but since I didn't see an answer, I'll ask again.

From the videos, it appears that the memory buttons save the EQ settings and "Tube Tone" settings, but not the compressor settings.

Is that right?

I hope not, because setting the compressor with the EQ settings would be a main reason for wanting a preset -- so you can instantly get your sound with the push of a button.

According to a TCE interview from the NAMM show and info from a retailer in the UK, all front panel controls are stored except for mute and master volume. The compressor was mentioned as one of the stored variables.

Full Compass ProAudio interview: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Tech Specs from Asolute Music: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Hopefully, I'll be able to try one of these out this week as they have already shipped to some areas of europe and Australia. Online sites are saying they will be instock on Feb. 26th but I need to a/b in person to make my decision.

 

[BassmanPaul]

Given some of the other posts I'm a little frightened to say I have been emailed my offer, but the main reason for my post is I was able to spend some time with the rig today at the Basspeople store where I work.

Edit for brevity

talking about the head, but I know it has turned a little sour so sorry if I should have started a new thread. (Edit-I just did)

I for one have no problem with you "winning" an amp. Enjoy, I sincerely hope it gives you pleasure.

I also don't think you should have started a new thread on this. This IS the thread covering the amplifier. However that is also your choice.

You work at a bass music store and endorse Aguilar amplification. No wonder you got picked!

Paul

 

[seamonkey]

An equation for Class D bass amp market penetration:

Older, established bass players = disposable income + age-related health issues impelling the adoption of lighter gear + decades worth of music industry contacts positioning them to propel word-of-mouth sales = more bass amps sold.

But then, what do I know about marketing...

I'm sure TC did their own market research. Asking focus groups what they're looking for in an amp. This lead them to including their "tube" simulator because everyone has been sold on an amp needing a tube or decent sim. The focus group likely included more young people as buying a brand, tends to by the same brand again. You'll find older people who their whole life only buy one brand of car.

"Class-D" being just the power amp part. Now TC claims to build their own, but this isn't so smart. In my opinion Power amps are just a commodity. They are to the point of having such like measurements that they all sound the same. It's really the signal processing "preamp" where heads can shine. Now TC claims to wrap their class-d power amp in circuitry to make it behave different than other power amps. This could just be more signal processing.

Class-d just happens to be lightweight. It is also highly efficient. Even young bands who may not have the ideal venue to play in can benefit. When you're sharing outlets with other amps, keyboards and lights, you'll be louder before you trip the breaker.

Efficiency also means less heat means better reliability, and smaller device count. Smaller boards ... less manufacturing costs.

Less weight is less shipping costs. You can bring a boatload over for a fraction of the price.

Class-d is showing up everywhere. In cell phones means you have a decent speaker phone not draining the battery. Leaving more battery power for the fancy screens. In cars it means louder amps without special wiring. In TV's it means decent sound without trying to figure out how to keep everything cool. In hearing aids it means long battery life and extra space for signal processing. ...

Personally - I'm having problems considering this head because of it's lack of external controllable automation. For the price it should work with other devices, like a footswitch that switches other effect settings like chorus and reverb along with the amp. TC probably decided on Not including this based on it's market focus group, they either didn't understand this, or as greenboy pointed out - were scared off by it.

 

[tombowlus]

Yes that's right.

This is what I meant to convey via Hamlet:

Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio:
I know of them JimmyM.

a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy:
they must be kidding/joking that I am not good enough to try their gear, these Danish makers of fine gear

he hath borne me on his back a thousand times;
I have used TC gear for years

and now, how abhorred in my imagination it is!
Their poor amp trial stunt has left a bad taste of TC electronics.

Sorry to have been cryptic.

You're good.

BTW, my first 'published work' was an essay on Hamlet that I wrote in high school.

 

[MIJ-VI]

I'm sure TC did their own market research. Asking focus groups what they're looking for in an amp. This lead them to including their "tube" simulator because everyone has been sold on an amp needing a tube or decent sim. The focus group likely included more young people as buying a brand, tends to by the same brand again. You'll find older people who their whole life only buy one brand of car.

I see your point seamonkey. However, when it comes to bass amps, old backs + a disposable income can often lead to the adoption of new, light-weight amp brands.

"Class-D" being just the power amp part. Now TC claims to build their own, but this isn't so smart. In my opinion Power amps are just a commodity. They are to the point of having such like measurements that they all sound the same. It's really the signal processing "preamp" where heads can shine. Now TC claims to wrap their class-d power amp in circuitry to make it behave different than other power amps. This could just be more signal processing.

Class-d just happens to be lightweight. It is also highly efficient. Even young bands who may not have the ideal venue to play in can benefit. When you're sharing outlets with other amps, keyboards and lights, you'll be louder before you trip the breaker.

Efficiency also means less heat means better reliability, and smaller device count. Smaller boards ... less manufacturing costs.

Less weight is less shipping costs. You can bring a boatload over for a fraction of the price.

Class-d is showing up everywhere. In cell phones means you have a decent speaker phone not draining the battery. Leaving more battery power for the fancy screens. In cars it means louder amps without special wiring. In TV's it means decent sound without trying to figure out how to keep everything cool. In hearing aids it means long battery life and extra space for signal processing. ...

Not being a technician, the only part of Class D amplifiers I understand is their light weight. That said, I do have concerns vis a vis a Class D amp's reaction to a 'dirty' AC supply and/or brownouts caused by power utilities which impose rotating load-cuts during summer heat-waves.

BTW. It is a comforting irony to learn that Class D is showing up in hearing aids as well as loud amps.

Personally - I'm having problems considering this head because of it's lack of external controllable automation. For the price it should work with other devices, like a footswitch that switches other effect settings like chorus and reverb along with the amp. TC probably decided on Not including this based on it's market focus group, they either didn't understand this, or as greenboy pointed out - were scared off by it.

I wish tc would've given the RH450 an effects option via user-installable expansion cards, along with a stereo line output to drive two heads, augmented with a separate stereo effects DI out. (I like plate reverb, chorus, and delay.)

 

[bassthumpa]

...the main reason for my post is I was able to spend some time with the rig today at the Basspeople store where I work...

I, for one, thank you for actually making a post related to the gear and appreciate your insight.

 

[BassmanPaul]

You're good.

BTW, my first 'published work' was an essay on Hamlet that I wrote in high school.

Did we really need to know this?? Out damned spot!!

Paul

 

[JimmyM]

Given some of the other posts I'm a little frightened to say I have been emailed my offer

Dude, I'm a pussycat! Nothing frightening about me at all Hey, you got your amp and I'm happy for you. TC's giant blunder of a contest wasn't your fault.

 

[seamonkey]

...
Not being a technician, the only part of Class D amplifiers I understand is their light weight. That said, I do have concerns vis a vis a Class D amp's reaction to a 'dirty' AC supply and/or brownouts caused by power utilities which impose rotating load-cuts during summer heat-waves.

The RH450 (and other like Carvin Bx500) has a universal power supply. They operate at full performance from 90 to 240 Volts. No external switch to flip for different voltages. It does it all automatically.

BTW. It is a comforting irony to learn that Class D is showing up in hearing aids as well as loud amps.

I wish tc would've given the RH450 an effects option via user-installable expansion cards, along with a stereo line output to drive two heads, augmented with a separate stereo effects DI out. (I like plate reverb, chorus, and delay.)

Those are very good ideas. TC makes some incredible good sounding effects. And it'd be nice to be able to control them and the effects on the head via the same automation. But again - their target group would likely be scared off of it.

 

[Tom7]

Given some of the other posts I'm a little frightened to say I have been emailed my offer, but the main reason for my post is I was able to spend some time with the rig today at the Basspeople store where I work.

My first impression was that it is loud and warm sounding. By using the shift knob I dialled in some really low bass frequencies, so low and loud my friends trousers actually loosely flapped a little at his legs as he stood in front of the cabs. ( I was playing through a 212 linked to a 210)

The tube sound is the most convincing simulator I've heard. I found it did seem to break up a little early though. Maybe a little more time spent with the unit will allow me to fatten up the sound without it breaking up.My only other gripe is the tuner seems to be constantly reading so the notes are always flashing around (you may be able to turn this off but I couldn't find how). I guess you don't do a gig looking at your rig hopefully so it shouldn't be a biggie.

I was also impressed with how full my g string sounded. I guess this is because of the spectracomp.

Anyways thats my first impression, I'm looking forward to gigging with it and seeing how it pulls up on stage. Not sure if I should have posted on the end of this thread but it seemed the logical spot given it's talking about the head, but I know it has turned a little sour so sorry if I should have started a new thread. (Edit-I just did)

I'm glad you DID post your comments; I very much appreciate the on-topic post. May I ask a couple of questions?

(1) Do the spectracomp settings get saved in the memory when you set the 3 presets? Or do the memory EQ settings and you still have to then go set the compressor?

(2) I don't like to read that the tuner display is always on. The tuner seems to presuppose everyone plays fretted basses. I wouldn't really be happy to have a constantly displaying LED broadcasting whether or not I got my finger down on the precise spot while playing fretlessly... let me know if you find a way to turn the tuning display off.

Cheers!

 

[Psycho Bass Guy]

Class-d just happens to be lightweight. It is also highly efficient. Even young bands who may not have the ideal venue to play in can benefit. When you're sharing outlets with other amps, keyboards and lights, you'll be louder before you trip the breaker.

You are exactly wrong. The opposite is the case. Class D amps rely on inrush current to replenish their supply rails at a MUCH higher rate than any A/B amp ever could. Far from being less susceptible to AC power fluctuations, class D amps are much prone to damage or shut down due to bad power. While they are smaller and more effiecient in utilizing the power they do get, when faced with a need for a large dynamic swing, they are far more likely to either trip a breaker, shut down, or otherwise malfunction.

 

[MIJ-VI]

You are exactly wrong. The opposite is the case. Class D amps rely on inrush current to replenish their supply rails at a MUCH higher rate than any A/B amp ever could. Far from being less susceptible to AC power fluctuations, class D amps are much prone to damage or shut down due to bad power. While they are smaller and more effiecient in utilizing the power they do get, when faced with a need for a large dynamic swing, they are far more likely to either trip a breaker, shut down, or otherwise malfunction.

That's what I was afraid of...

...Not being a technician, the only part of Class D amplifiers I understand is their light weight. That said, I do have concerns vis a vis a Class D amp's reaction to a 'dirty' AC supply and/or brownouts caused by power utilities which impose rotating load-cuts during summer heat-waves...

EDIT: A review of the Markbass CMD 102P, which, if I have it right, is a Class D amp.

Posted by phat daddy, Review Date: Sat July 26, 2008:

"... Mine has shut down once, when I was plugged into my equally impressive MB 4x10. The lights were browning out and surging and my amp shut itself down. I contacted Peter Murray about this and he said it was indeed a protective circuit...": http://www.talkbass.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=1122

 

[JimmyM]

The LMII, which is in all their combos, is not a class D amp. I believe the F1 is, though.

 

[pearcey]

To move away from technical matters; just found the RRP for these in Australia is $2295AU (about $1500USD). Actually not as bad as I thought; still a bit more than the US price; a lot more than the F1 and F500. Probably means you get it for a bit less as retail too.

Don't see why they couldn't have just sold it for the same RRP as it's sold in the US tho; should really be $2000USD. It's going to be pretty easy to get them from the US too; they're light, and there is apparently no voltage issue. When you can get them for $1000USD ($1500AU) seems a bit silly to try to sell them for more than 50% more again.

The whole 'things cost too much in Australia' subject is a bit well worn, tho isn't it; vaguely on topic this time.

 

[seamonkey]

That's what I was afraid of...

I have a feature this forum offers to ignore certain posters, so I'm only seeing half the conversion, but ...

Nothing to be afraid of:

It's up to the engineer to design the right power supply for the amp. If some are designed wrong, it doesn't indicate there's a systemic problem with the technology. There isn't.

The SMPS power supplies are stable. The technology has been used in PCs for years. It's used in mission critical applications such as medical gear. And in high priced amplifiers for years. Take a look at powersoft. Over time expensive technologies trickle down to affordable markets.

You can find posts by Bob Lee QSC on this forum. SMPS use large capacitors just like conventional power supplies.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2857716&postcount=39


Now back to the TC RH450 ...

 

[MIJ-VI]

The LMII, which is in all their combos, is not a class D amp. I believe the F1 is, though.

Thanks for clearing this up.

 

[MIJ-VI]

I have a feature this forum offers to ignore certain posters, so I'm only seeing half the conversion, but ...

Nothing to be afraid of:

It's up to the engineer to design the right power supply for the amp. If some are designed wrong, it doesn't indicate there's a systemic problem with the technology. There isn't.

The SMPS power supplies are stable. The technology has been used in PCs for years. It's used in mission critical applications such as medical gear. And in high priced amplifiers for years. Take a look at powersoft. Over time expensive technologies trickle down to affordable markets.

You can find posts by Bob Lee QSC on this forum. SMPS use large capacitors just like conventional power supplies.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2857716&postcount=39


Now back to the TC RH450 ...

So the tc electronic RH450 employs a Switch Mode Power Supply?