The argument for (or) against mixing cabs - example: 115 & 410

[/\/\3phist0]

you must be fun at parties......

I am I am

 

[ThisBass]

OH cripes:
Comb Filtering, Acoustical Interference, & Power Response in Loudspeakers
Phase Cancellation
Invalid Link Removed
Interference (wave propagation) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
THE THREE TO ONE RULE & PHASE CANCELLATION FULLY EXPLAINED
Acoustic theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Overheard during an eclipse:
"LOOK a dragon is swallowing the sun we must sacrifice a virgin!"

Indeed a nice justification why "generic" matched 15"s suck, but these still are recommended, cause it's all good as long as stuff is "matching"? What an idiotic ideology must be this that can't exclude mistakes?

The links are right at the point but interpretation of substance is "somewhat" dubious.
"Basics" are easy to understand while interactions in real world by considering all of boundary conditions is a way more complex animal.

 

[silky smoove]

That's it.. armchair acoustic scientists with no real world experience other than what they have read somewhere along the line.. I am sure there are problems that arise but in my estimation based on 27 years playing bass and being a semi-professional since 2001 the problem has not arisen for my un-scientific extremely lucky as I am musician self..

If you've already made a decision, then why did you bother asking a question?

 

[cfsporn]

The most boring thing about all these threads is the no mixed driver scientists?
They have to a man, failed to understand that the PA system is also part of the equation and is probably due to its crossover and different speaker placement causing far worse phase anomolies than mixing a slightly different loudspeaker size without a crossover in a single location on a stage.
So why have the nay sayers all decided to look at the problem without taking the real complexities of the whole practical situation into account?.
Any scientists care to comment on why you don't really understand the question outside of an anechoic chamber.

I can't control the PA. I can control my bass rig. Why not eliminate as many variables as possible?

 

[lfmn16]

Pro's play the same... here below are a few examples but maybe you guys know something some of us don't... please try to explain the argument for (or) against mixing cabs. Thanks -

Or, you could look it up yourself since there are so many threads and a search engine! Do the work yourself, what a concept!

 

[drummer5359]

Is this deja vu again?? Or maybe TB's version of "Groundhog Day"?

"Is it too early for flapjacks?"

 

[lfmn16]

No he is running in to a massive PA with IEM's. If that rig on stage is on, it isnt making a damn bit of difference out front, and isnt actually what flea is even hearing on stage.


Damn it... Must resist posting.

To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine

People who don't believe in science can't be reasoned with.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Indeed a nice justification why "generic" matched 15"s suck, but these still are recommended, cause it's all good as long as stuff is "matching"? What an idiotic ideology must be this that can't exclude mistakes?

The links are right at the point but interpretation of substance is "somewhat" dubious.
"Basics" are easy to understand while interactions in real world by considering all of boundary conditions is a way more complex animal.

And ignorance is bliss.
As I have said, if you are happy with it, and it sounds good to you and works for your application good enough.
Question???
how on God's green earth can your incidental anecdotes invalidate many years of acoustic testing, learning and experience by smarter guys than me, with countless hours of live sound support, designing devices for use, and college degrees. Access to audio spectrum analyzers, the ability to test, and verify the results.
Access to products, and money to research and produce products based on this research.
Of course you know better, because your individual experience tells you so.
I'll take a educated experienced degreed audio designers opinion long before anyone on a random board without a verifiable pedigree, thank you.

 

[madmanmerc]

Cant we all just get along? Lol

 

[/\/\3phist0]

If you've already made a decision, then why did you bother asking a question?

As Ceasar said "to watch it burn"

 

[/\/\3phist0]

"Is it too early for flapjacks?"

Oolong doesn't think so

 

[Beavisplaysbass]

This is the third time in a week I have used this post:

Bass amplification isn't like a Chinese restaurant where you pick one tonal profile from column A and one from column B and you get a nice combination of the two tonalities. In reality, mixing and matching can cause frequency cancellations in the room that can not be fixed.

On top of that, you're very likely to damage the 115 as it is getting four times as much power as each ten inch driver. Since you're likely to. have it on the bottom, you won't hear its cries of stress before it blows.


Also this one:

Juan Alderete is an amazing bassist.


I doubt he knows that much about Acoustical Physics, Electrical Engineering, or Acoustic Engineering.

In an old band I was in, I was gifted a 4x10 and 1x15.. and one amp. The 4x10 was the one that flopped, thankfully the sound through the 115 sounded better for the mix with the band oddly enough.

 

[Antisyzygy]

This is the third time in a week I have used this post:

Bass amplification isn't like a Chinese restaurant where you pick one tonal profile from column A and one from column B and you get a nice combination of the two tonalities. In reality, mixing and matching can cause frequency cancellations in the room that can not be fixed.

On top of that, you're very likely to damage the 115 as it is getting four times as much power as each ten inch driver. Since you're likely to have it on the bottom, you won't hear its cries of stress before it blows.


Also this one:

Juan Alderete is an amazing bassist.


I doubt he knows that much about Acoustical Physics, Electrical Engineering, or Acoustic Engineering.

I noticed your exchange with another poster saying a 2x10 and a 1x15 could work together without burning out the 15 possibly if other specs match.

If you don't mind me asking, what specifically am I looking for if I want to make that combo? Sorry to bug you I just don't know much about that. I've always been fine with one cab but am looking to expand.

I have a Schroeder 210PL

150 Watts Phenolic Tweeter

4 Ohm

700 Watts Rms

102 dB Spl@ 1W/1M

 

[BAG]

I'm not in the PA 99.99999 percent of the time.

I play in a couple of bands all of which have acoustic guitars (DI'd), cajon and me on bass. Even in small rooms where the FOH is 2 x 12" and horn top boxes and one sub i'll still go through the PA. My amp is usually kicked back and aimed at my ears so i'm never too loud on stage but there's a good throw throughout the whole room through the FOH. It has to be a very small system for me to not be in the FOH.

 

[HaphAsSard]

If you have reason to question my analogy

I definitely wouldn't have used the word "stupid". This said, reread your own words. The number of people burned at the stake by the Catholic Church for daring to say the Earth is flat is exactly zero.

I can't control the PA. I can control my bass rig. Why not eliminate as many variables as possible?

This is exactly what the MDP usually replies with when room problems and interactions with FOH are mentioned. I suppose it's a BFM heritage. And I have difficulties buying it. I promise I'll reread the sticky threads, but I don't think I've ever seen actual science, not just ipse dixits, supporting the claim that phase anomalies generated by cabinet mismatch are of a greater order of magnitude than other contingent sources of peaks and nulls. And @ThisBass got showered with links and ridicule for actually raising a good point in one of his earlier posts: for people who actually have PA support, even someone else's floor monitor with some bass in it creates potential problems. For all the good that raising awareness on the perils of mismixing does, it would be reasonable to admit that in such situations it's just one possible source of problems among many.
And since it takes nothing to be quickly judged as a flat-Earther, and arguments aren't always weighed for themselves but filtered through the general impression of which side a poster appears to be on in a discussion, at this point I feel the need to say I don't mix myself and find the idea of looking for good sound by randomly throwing together different cabs tortuous at best.
Also (and I think we might have had the same conversation in the past), as someone way more knowledgeable than both of us once pointed out, too much of a relatively good thing can actually be simply too much: the upper bass bump from a matching stack may well sound too bloated in comparison with the same peak from just one of them, also considering that the baffle step moves down to the same freq area with the stack.
Also also, matching is well and good, but telling a guy to get a second 410 identical to the one he has because he'll get just more of what he loves is not the whole picture. With four more sources comes more comb filtering in many listening positions.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

I play in a couple of bands all of which have acoustic guitars (DI'd), cajon and me on bass. Even in small rooms where the FOH is 2 x 12" and horn top boxes and one sub i'll still go through the PA. My amp is usually kicked back and aimed at my ears so i'm never too loud on stage but there's a good throw throughout the whole room through the FOH. It has to be a very small system for me to not be in the FOH.

There is a tipping point between "enough" FOH to produce sufficient bass reproduction in a small room, and a medium sized room (no subs) with PA sufficient for vocals, but insufficient for bass reproduction. Unfortunately i'm in the latter situation

 

[BAG]

There is a tipping point between "enough" FOH to produce sufficient bass reproduction in a small room, and a medium sized room (no subs) with PA sufficient for vocals, but insufficient for bass reproduction. Unfortunately i'm in the latter situation

You are correct and i've been lucky enough that, with what we play and how we play it, one sub is enough ooomph in the PA to at least carry enough bass. If you're playing rock with drummer and electric guitars and the PA is just 12" tops with no sub for vocals only, then yes, you need a decent sized rig as the FOH just can't handle it.

In saying that, i'd rather spend $1000 on a decent sub and have a good FOH mix while using a smaller bass combo as monitor, than spend well over $1000 on a big stage rig for my bass, but that's just me and i've always provided the PA so any spending on that side works for me too.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

You are correct and i've been lucky enough that with what we play and one sub there is always enough ooomph in the PA to at least carry enough bass. If you're playing rock with drummer and electric guitars and the PA is just 12" tops with no sub, then yes, you need a decent sized rig as the FOH just can't handle it.

In saying that, i'd rather spend $1000 on a decent sub and have a good FOH while using a smaller bass combo as monitor, than spend well over $1000 on a big stage rig for my bass, but that's just me and i've always provided the PA so any spending on that side works for me too.

My rig ain't big and shock! Mixed drivers!!#
Although they were engineered to work together
And acoustic kit, 2 guitars. We're not loud, but just loud enough. (Usually 95db middle of venue full band)

 

[musicman666]

I can read all of the threads.. but what this tells me is that science and the opinion of some TB'ers is that when Pro's like Flea runs 3 15" cabs and 4 4x10" cabs at every show, he is blowing up his cabs and sounding like a turd - or maybe the laws of acoustic science cease to exist when he's on stage.. idk - I posted an article and pictures to try to prove what is being done in a real world situation

I doubt Flea is relying on his stage rig to carry the bass for the room, FOH is doing that for him. His rig is mainly for looks and stage volume, not for the arena volume....hope that helps.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Someone, please correct me if I am wrong. I know I don't have to ask, but I'm being polite.

If I run a 2 X 10 cab and a 1 X 15 cab utilizing a crossover first, all will be well?

Generally speaking, in order to use a crossover the standard setup would be to run two separate channels of amplification. aka a bi-amp setup. Not many people seem to do that anymore. This comes in handy when trying to dole out power to cabs with different efficiencies.