I play in TWO jam bands where improve is the main attraction. We even get people to pay to listen. For me as the bass player, I love going where an ensemble has never gone before. Otherwise, it gets boring.
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I play in TWO jam bands where improve is the main attraction. We even get people to pay to listen. For me as the bass player, I love going where an ensemble has never gone before. Otherwise, it gets boring.
- Dec 21, 2007
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@Paulabass I really get your point. "Jamming" does not simply mean "longer guitar solos", but rather an interplay between all the musicians that includes close listening, with the ability to take things to different musical places - put different spins on the music at different times.
I love me some of that.
I love me some of that.
Group improvisation is a skill. The solos need to tell a story. They use tension and release, build dynamically throughout, and end on a high point. The supporting musicians improvise at the same time, lending a hand in the goals of the soloist.
It's the difference between a good story teller and a bad one. A good story teller adds enough description and asides to add flavor to the story while at the same time keeping the narrative moving forward to an eventual conclusion. A bad story teller adds a flood of needless asides, details that don't matter and a conclusion that is left wanting.
When I started out I was listening to the first two Allman Brothers albums and Chicago Transit Authority. Also Scratch, a live album by the Crusaders. My teacher turned me on to Donnie Hathaway Live with with Willie Weeks solo. There is a solo that tells a story.
It's the difference between a good story teller and a bad one. A good story teller adds enough description and asides to add flavor to the story while at the same time keeping the narrative moving forward to an eventual conclusion. A bad story teller adds a flood of needless asides, details that don't matter and a conclusion that is left wanting.
When I started out I was listening to the first two Allman Brothers albums and Chicago Transit Authority. Also Scratch, a live album by the Crusaders. My teacher turned me on to Donnie Hathaway Live with with Willie Weeks solo. There is a solo that tells a story.
I used to go to a jazz jam that was in a studio in an industrial park, no public audience, just a bunch of musicians on an email list: anyone can show up, just bring an instrument. Beginners (to jazz) welcome.
Now when I used to think of "jamming", I thought as some of you do, that it's just somebody noodling up a riff and you go on for 10 minutes until you get sick of it and maybe later it gets used as part of a song. That how most inexperienced rock musicians jam. Fun a for a few minutes to warm up, now can we get on with rehearsal, please?
This jazz jam was a whole different story.
1. There was a jam leader/director. He made sure that everyone who showed up got to play. Rotated drummers/bass players, etc. And he made sure we stuck to a structure.
2. There was a structure. We play the head once or twice, each instrument gets to solo around the head once, maybe trade fours with the drummer, then run through the head and finish the song. No pointless noodling, but every solo was improvised, the entire bass line was never played the same way twice.
3. Types of songs were rotated. Play a blues form, then play a swing tune, then maybe a latin tune, keep mixing it up. Change up tempos.
4. If we were all feeling it, we would sometimes put a different spin on a known tune. Playing Take the A Train with a New Orleans-style stomp rhythm instead of the big band swing, for example.
It was not easy, especially for a bass player. You were kind of on the spot all the time, because in jazz the world revolves around the bassist in many ways. It forced me to step up my game, and sometimes I felt like I was just barely hanging on for dear life to get through a tune. But in time, with PRACTICE (the magic word), I got more comfortable and then it was a blast.
If there was a rock version of that kind of jam session I'd be all over it. But a lot of rock musicians can't read chord charts on the fly, and rock songs themselves tend to be more scripted, whereas jazz is pretty much designed to improvisational and spontaneous, so it's tough to do this. Really good rock musicians practice their songs to play them consistently every gig, and have good technical skills, but improvising on the fly is not something most of us are comfortable with.
For the record I am still a rock bassist. My taste of jazz was and still is a lot of fun but I'm not a real jazz musician by any stretch.
Now when I used to think of "jamming", I thought as some of you do, that it's just somebody noodling up a riff and you go on for 10 minutes until you get sick of it and maybe later it gets used as part of a song. That how most inexperienced rock musicians jam. Fun a for a few minutes to warm up, now can we get on with rehearsal, please?
This jazz jam was a whole different story.
1. There was a jam leader/director. He made sure that everyone who showed up got to play. Rotated drummers/bass players, etc. And he made sure we stuck to a structure.
2. There was a structure. We play the head once or twice, each instrument gets to solo around the head once, maybe trade fours with the drummer, then run through the head and finish the song. No pointless noodling, but every solo was improvised, the entire bass line was never played the same way twice.
3. Types of songs were rotated. Play a blues form, then play a swing tune, then maybe a latin tune, keep mixing it up. Change up tempos.
4. If we were all feeling it, we would sometimes put a different spin on a known tune. Playing Take the A Train with a New Orleans-style stomp rhythm instead of the big band swing, for example.
It was not easy, especially for a bass player. You were kind of on the spot all the time, because in jazz the world revolves around the bassist in many ways. It forced me to step up my game, and sometimes I felt like I was just barely hanging on for dear life to get through a tune. But in time, with PRACTICE (the magic word), I got more comfortable and then it was a blast.
If there was a rock version of that kind of jam session I'd be all over it. But a lot of rock musicians can't read chord charts on the fly, and rock songs themselves tend to be more scripted, whereas jazz is pretty much designed to improvisational and spontaneous, so it's tough to do this. Really good rock musicians practice their songs to play them consistently every gig, and have good technical skills, but improvising on the fly is not something most of us are comfortable with.
For the record I am still a rock bassist. My taste of jazz was and still is a lot of fun but I'm not a real jazz musician by any stretch.
A lot of people have the skill to play songs, but not improvise. It would be nice of some of the players who do these jams would take the opportunity to stretch their capabilities, but people nowadays just want to be safe, and are afraid of mistakes.
I have a hard time distinguishing between a real jam and an open mic nowadays. I like closed jams, where the players know each other and get together regularly with the understanding that we're all there to experiment. I do a blues jam on most Sundays that's like this. Only three of us, usually, but we give each other the opportunity to try things and maybe suck at them
I have a hard time distinguishing between a real jam and an open mic nowadays. I like closed jams, where the players know each other and get together regularly with the understanding that we're all there to experiment. I do a blues jam on most Sundays that's like this. Only three of us, usually, but we give each other the opportunity to try things and maybe suck at them
Great Post!!! Where are you located? I am coming to your jam.
The death of jams with recognizable tunes and players competent to play them sucks.
Apologies for duplicating some of the earlier posts?
1) Does anyone know any tunes other than blues anymore?
2) I am not there to serve the egotistical crap guitarist (i.e. leg humpin dog)- some get pretty irate if you play anything adventurous.
3) The throngs of the zombie musical un-dead that come every week and attempt the same three lame-ass songs.
4) The good players have left the room never to return.
5) Jams run by bass players sometimes can be the worst. There was a terrible bass player who would never allow a better bass player on stage. Another wanted money under the table to play.
To me, a jam was you show up, somebody calls a not too obscure song, and you play. Having a good ear and knowledge of songs helps. I go for the challenge. And when I go, I take note what songs are called so I am ready next time.
I can play any blues song, the ad infinitum Clapton schtick, Hendrix, but I would rather mix it up. Nights in White Satin, Paranoid, Carry On my Wayward son, Respect, I'll take you there, Whats Going On, Fooled around and fell in Love, some Mile Davis songs from the kinda blues album, occasional jazz tunes, ...think you are going to stump me...boo hah hah ha.
The problem I've always had with jamming was that there was never enough structure to make the jams cohesive . I love jamming within the structure of a good song . If the musicians I'm playing with are good and we have played enough together to know how each other is going to fill or flavor the jam it's great. But it is very rare to find people that are not only really good musicians who are seasoned enough and understand and enjoy enough different styles to not only keep it fresh but interesting and tasteful as well most that want to jam always end up doing 12 bar blues after a few moments.
Basically, this. People either don't find it musically mature or give the impression that they feel like they're on ice skates when they are actually pushed to do something unfamiliar that involves using their ears. There's generally two schools of player, the ones that want to "play the songs" and the ones that want to "understand the notes". The latter can pick up books and relate, play around with intervals, and create more interesting material. The former would rather imitate things they've heard on a CD or play around with the latest pop tunes, but put a book in front of them and they walk away. I knew a bud who would always give the excuse that he wasn't "musically trained" so he "can't" do play things that require more than average concentration; it'd always be fruitless week after week of "man, I can't get it down. How about we try it next week and see how it turns out?". He "can't" even tho he happens to work at a library (and wither the hours away bothering everybody with facebook messenger and stickers) with all the information accessible. He thinks it's a magical musical diligence that he won't get because mommy and daddy didn't push him through all the doors and hold his nose to the grindstone.
It's great to think that improvising and open forums make it possible for people to improve in a group effort, but my personal opinion is it's everyone for themselves and pushing the cart for everybody will only wear yourself out. Record yourself, promote yourself, make people find you.
One of my bands is entirely defined by keeping alive the risks and rails of full-band improvisation. It’s what we do. It’s always nice to hear that others are doing the same.
Over time, as we work our way towards 10,000 hrs, the ouch:yea-ha ratio gets better and better.
Over time, as we work our way towards 10,000 hrs, the ouch:yea-ha ratio gets better and better.
I hear you. There are too few players that can ride. I always have thought if you can train a deal to play notes in a fixed sequence....I’ve worked with countless musicians that could blow the snot out of their instrument but couldn’t play a note unless it’s on a staff. All that is required is technical expertise. Musical aptitude or even theory is not needed, just like a seal, play the next note.
Since getting into bass about 4 years ago most of my live playing has been with acoustic groups. Occasionally I'll learn a signature bass riff but most of the time I'll just look at the chord chart and improvise a line that sounds good.
@Spectrum That's fantastic....that's kind of how the blues jam I attend works....
So here's the rub....I think and I'm no expert. At least with the blues you have some kind of structure. Don't know the song? It's a I IV V with a quick IV, watch for the stops in the first verse. Anyone paying attention can follow along.
I have seen folks pull off some cool stuff that wasn't but I'm fairly sure t hey have played together before.
I think the YouTube, Spotify issue these days are that some people are so deep in there genre, that ALL they listen to. Today I swapped the brakes on my car, an hour and a half of pandora alt-country. In the car, I will listen to something else, maybe the Jam Nation or rock, etc. I have played with people that claimed to be into country...I said let's do Big River...I got blank stares. Of course I played that and REM at an open Mic and the host asked me if the REM was an original. LOL. Generations....I"m still on the young side. Well, middle age. This is sort of the CL band posting...."we play XYZ...." Oh wait, that's actually ALL you know.
I used to go to this acoustic jam to break out my Martin...behind their backs, I call it "[host] and the Timeless". So new folks every once in a while, but I kid you not, the same guys show up playing the same songs and say they are still working on it. It's been two years and 4 chords....when you gonna finish learning it?
So here's the rub....I think and I'm no expert. At least with the blues you have some kind of structure. Don't know the song? It's a I IV V with a quick IV, watch for the stops in the first verse. Anyone paying attention can follow along.
I have seen folks pull off some cool stuff that wasn't but I'm fairly sure t hey have played together before.
I think the YouTube, Spotify issue these days are that some people are so deep in there genre, that ALL they listen to. Today I swapped the brakes on my car, an hour and a half of pandora alt-country. In the car, I will listen to something else, maybe the Jam Nation or rock, etc. I have played with people that claimed to be into country...I said let's do Big River...I got blank stares. Of course I played that and REM at an open Mic and the host asked me if the REM was an original. LOL. Generations....I"m still on the young side. Well, middle age. This is sort of the CL band posting...."we play XYZ...." Oh wait, that's actually ALL you know.
I used to go to this acoustic jam to break out my Martin...behind their backs, I call it "[host] and the Timeless". So new folks every once in a while, but I kid you not, the same guys show up playing the same songs and say they are still working on it. It's been two years and 4 chords....when you gonna finish learning it?
I don't usually know I'm in a jam until the song is over and I say "that was cool, what song was that" and they say "I don't know, I just made it up"
OOooh, I was JAMMIN
OOooh, I was JAMMIN
Yes.... I have a low tolerance for mindless wankery. In fact I’ve been know to walk up to a guitar player and say “yo... enough with wankering.”
Jamming, especially entertaining jamming require musicians with big ears who listens and plays well with others.
Wish you lived near me!!! I've always hated cover songs and really rather just set a groove and jam. A song never has to be finished, just keep jamming it.
+10,000.
I play in G. Dead cover bands for the most part, and ironically have found most musicians i know in that genre to be the most unjammy folks around.
Majority of the GD oriented musicians I know always just want to play songs, while there might be a jam in the middle it's more or less just the guitar player/keys guy taking turns soloing, no true improv involved.
Im not sure what happened, back in the 90's and early 2000's Id be at jams that had great improvisers. People who could pick up and play off a melody or a rythym. That just isn't the case for me anymore.
ETA: Perfect example if this is a song like China Cat Sunflower, which during the mid 70's often had extended improv parts leading up to the song. Everyone I know starts this song out like "1,2,3,4". I've suggested doing an improv section at the start, and even sent out examples but it falls on deaf ears.
I think the problem is people get so hung up on learning the material and copying Jerrys or Bobbys licks that the idea of doing something of their own becomes completely foreign to them.
Pbassmanca
In the pocket n' thumpy. So woody, so greasy...
I love to jam, but you need the right people, in the right frame of mind, with a decent set of skills and a good chunk of time for it to be good. Beers don't hurt either...
I'm sure there are rewarding jams out there, the trouble is I have never found them.
99.99% of the time I have spent jamming just felt like time I would never get back. I am becoming increasingly aware that time is a finite resource for me and there are thousands of other things I would rather be doing than acting as a looper for a guitarist who isn't listening to (or cannot hear) either the drummer or I.
99.99% of the time I have spent jamming just felt like time I would never get back. I am becoming increasingly aware that time is a finite resource for me and there are thousands of other things I would rather be doing than acting as a looper for a guitarist who isn't listening to (or cannot hear) either the drummer or I.
YOU ARE SO SPOT ON. I FEEL EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. we even jamm out our hymns at church, and it sounds really great. high fun factor.
