The DI Feed; I must be missing something

[frankie5string]

I remember reading years ago that you could use the -15db and the "Speaker" buttons together on the JDI in a pinch as a mute IFF you were feeding it a line or mic-level signal. The Speaker button engages their parallel speaker circuit which is effectively a large attenuator (but not a "loader") when engaged. They also recommended unplugging the instrument cable from the DI side before you pull your instrument-side plug.

 

[TrevorR]

So, my first Fail realization was that most amplifiers include the input volume knob in the pre EQ send to the board. Sorry, that’s a fail. What are they thinking? If I have an amp on stage, I do NOT want to be held captive to the FOH board for my knob twisting on the amp during the show. Just no.

I don’t see that as a fail, I see that as a valid design choice. It depends what you’re using the input gain knob to do. On a lot of modern bass amps it’s emphatically NOT a volume knob, it’s a “gain matching/signal to noise ratio optimisation” knob. And in that use it is emphatically NOT tweaked during a gig. I’ve always used it this way. When setting up, increase gain until you get a touch of clipping and then back it off. Your matching between the output of your bass pedals is now optimally set against the amp’s gain structure. So the pre-EQ DI is getting a signal that’s been set as loud as possible while remaining clean - just what I want for a pre-EQ DI signal.

 

[pfschim]

FWIW, on the mute question, I use an instrument cable with a latching circuit breaker switch. I've been using them for a long time and never had one fail. It's an easy and effective solution to muting right at the instrument rather than at the amp or pedal board. I use and have been happy with the D'Addario version but I'm pretty sure there are other suppliers (like Whirlwind etc).

 

[Bob Coldwell]

To the OP, I will ask again: Why do you need a mute switch? Why is it important to unplug your bass in between sets? Why not just turn the volume controls down?

 

[DaveB in VA]

On the Subway TT-800 the PRE-EQ DI signal is taken prior to the GAIN control. The MUTE switch mutes everything. This is your NO FAIL solution. By the way, the first reply to the original post was by the guy that designed the TT-800.

 

[GreyBeard]

Most pre-eq DI outs are also pre input gain/volume control.

If your amp has a pre-eq DI setting, just turn your bass all the way down during breaks.

 

[Bob Coldwell]

If your amp has a pre-eq DI setting, just turn your bass all the way down during breaks.

Yes!

 

[two fingers]

We have all this amazing gear these days; but, I have been trying to simplify, and have run into a bit of a surprising conundrum. The DI feed. Oddly I’ve been sending DI feeds for decades, and just throwing gear at what seems to be a basic gap.

So, my first Fail realization was that most amplifiers include the input volume knob in the pre EQ send to the board. Sorry, that’s a fail. What are they thinking? If I have an amp on stage, I do NOT want to be held captive to the FOH board for my knob twisting on the amp during the show. Just no.

OK, so, next step was to grab my passive DI box (Radial JDI) and put the send to the board ahead of the amp. Nope. No mute switch. Seriously? Who was thinking that no mute switch was a good idea? What happens between sets? You are supposed to leave the instrument plugged in the whole time? Again, that’s a Fail.

And, I get it that I can put a tuner in front of the DI box; but, I’m trying to simplify. Got enough cords to coil up at the end of the night. One more widget box with an AC adapter cord because it’s apparently too expensive to put a mute switch on a direct box is teeth grindingly frustrating.

I guess I might as well start hauling the pedal board. Which I was trying to get away from.

My $0.019: Amps should have direct sends independent of the front panel controls, or at least a switch to make that happen. Passive DI boxes should have a mute switch. Neither seem to be available.

Or am I missing something?

Here's a wacky idea. How 'bout turning your bass volume all the way down between sets? You claim to be trying to keep things simple. And yet your "solutions" all involve adding more complications to simple ideas.

A DI box should be just that.... a way to get a line level signal to a sound board.... and nothing else.

Now, as far as amps and knob twiddling go, most great amps DO have either two outputs (one pre and one post) or a switch. Yours doesn't. That's a problem for YOUR amp.

Wanna keep YOUR amp and a simple way of getting signal to the board? Use a DI box and the volume knob on your bass. Done.

 

[agedhorse]

The TT is an exception,

On the Subway TT-800 the PRE-EQ DI signal is taken prior to the GAIN control. The MUTE switch mutes everything. This is your NO FAIL solution. By the way, the first reply to the original post was by the guy that designed the TT-800.

Correct. Due to the unique architecture of the TT-800, the DI is pre gain controls but post first tube gain stage and deep/bright filters. This is because the basic intent of the amp was to provide a "tube driven" DI, even in the pre eq routing.

 

[JimmyM]

This thread is why I use a clip on tuner, a DI with a battery that lasts nearly forever (and also has presets in case I want to get gnarly), and a bass with a volume knob

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Most pre-eq DI outs are also pre input gain/volume control.

We have all this amazing gear these days; but, I have been trying to simplify, and have run into a bit of a surprising conundrum. The DI feed. Oddly I’ve been sending DI feeds for decades, and just throwing gear at what seems to be a basic gap.

So, my first Fail realization was that most amplifiers include the input volume knob in the pre EQ send to the board. Sorry, that’s a fail. What are they thinking? If I have an amp on stage, I do NOT want to be held captive to the FOH board for my knob twisting on the amp during the show. Just no.

OK, so, next step was to grab my passive DI box (Radial JDI) and put the send to the board ahead of the amp. Nope. No mute switch. Seriously? Who was thinking that no mute switch was a good idea? What happens between sets? You are supposed to leave the instrument plugged in the whole time? Again, that’s a Fail.

And, I get it that I can put a tuner in front of the DI box; but, I’m trying to simplify. Got enough cords to coil up at the end of the night. One more widget box with an AC adapter cord because it’s apparently too expensive to put a mute switch on a direct box is teeth grindingly frustrating.

I guess I might as well start hauling the pedal board. Which I was trying to get away from.

My $0.019: Amps should have direct sends independent of the front panel controls, or at least a switch to make that happen. Passive DI boxes should have a mute switch. Neither seem to be available.

Or am I missing something?

My Eden gear DI out level is not effected by my input gain. in fact they have a separate knob to adjust the gain of the DI feed level.

 

[fishdude101101]

We have all this amazing gear these days; but, I have been trying to simplify, and have run into a bit of a surprising conundrum. The DI feed. Oddly I’ve been sending DI feeds for decades, and just throwing gear at what seems to be a basic gap.

So, my first Fail realization was that most amplifiers include the input volume knob in the pre EQ send to the board. Sorry, that’s a fail. What are they thinking? If I have an amp on stage, I do NOT want to be held captive to the FOH board for my knob twisting on the amp during the show. Just no.

OK, so, next step was to grab my passive DI box (Radial JDI) and put the send to the board ahead of the amp. Nope. No mute switch. Seriously? Who was thinking that no mute switch was a good idea? What happens between sets? You are supposed to leave the instrument plugged in the whole time? Again, that’s a Fail.

And, I get it that I can put a tuner in front of the DI box; but, I’m trying to simplify. Got enough cords to coil up at the end of the night. One more widget box with an AC adapter cord because it’s apparently too expensive to put a mute switch on a direct box is teeth grindingly frustrating.

I guess I might as well start hauling the pedal board. Which I was trying to get away from.

My $0.019: Amps should have direct sends independent of the front panel controls, or at least a switch to make that happen. Passive DI boxes should have a mute switch. Neither seem to be available.

Or am I missing something?

Yep, you're missing something.

 

[fishdude101101]

The TT is an exception,

Correct. Due to the unique architecture of the TT-800, the DI is pre gain controls but post first tube gain stage and deep/bright filters. This is because the basic intent of the amp was to provide a "tube driven" DI, even in the pre eq routing.

IIRC the gain on the d800, d800+, and WD 800, does not affect the pre eq di, correct?

 

[agedhorse]

IIRC the gain on the d800, d800+, and WD 800, does not affect the pre eq di, correct?

Correct

 

[getBAK]

volume knob in the pre EQ send to the board. I do NOT want to be held captive to the FOH board for my knob twisting on the amp during the show. Just no.

I have to point out: what you hear on stage, and what the audience hears in FOH are only vaguely related. You absolutely want the FOH engineer to tweak your sound during a show, because you have absolutely no idea how it sounds 20 ft in front of the stage. Even if you send post-EQ, the man at the soundboard generally has the tools to change that anyways. If you're trying to EQ for FOH from the amp, you're probably just causing problems downstream

Totally get the desire for a mute switch. I tend to just hit the meet switch on the amp.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

We have all this amazing gear these days; but, I have been trying to simplify, and have run into a bit of a surprising conundrum. The DI feed. Oddly I’ve been sending DI feeds for decades, and just throwing gear at what seems to be a basic gap.

So, my first Fail realization was that most amplifiers include the input volume knob in the pre EQ send to the board. Sorry, that’s a fail. What are they thinking? If I have an amp on stage, I do NOT want to be held captive to the FOH board for my knob twisting on the amp during the show. Just no.

OK, so, next step was to grab my passive DI box (Radial JDI) and put the send to the board ahead of the amp. Nope. No mute switch. Seriously? Who was thinking that no mute switch was a good idea? What happens between sets? You are supposed to leave the instrument plugged in the whole time? Again, that’s a Fail.

And, I get it that I can put a tuner in front of the DI box; but, I’m trying to simplify. Got enough cords to coil up at the end of the night. One more widget box with an AC adapter cord because it’s apparently too expensive to put a mute switch on a direct box is teeth grindingly frustrating.

I guess I might as well start hauling the pedal board. Which I was trying to get away from.

My $0.019: Amps should have direct sends independent of the front panel controls, or at least a switch to make that happen. Passive DI boxes should have a mute switch. Neither seem to be available.

Or am I missing something?

Some are pre only. Some are post only. Some do both. It depends on what amp you have.
A mute switch is not normally a standard feature on a D.I. It could be on some but is not something I would expect.
There are features that we would love our equipment to have, but our personal preference does not drive equipment designs. It has to be something that the majority of users demand to have. If you and I find ourselves in the minority, we need to figure some other way to accomplish what we want our setup to do.

 

[bucephylus]

To the OP, I will ask again: Why do you need a mute switch? Why is it important to unplug your bass in between sets? Why not just turn the volume controls down?

Several reasons. The bass is active; and leaving it plugged in just runs the battery down. Further, people coming and going on stage periodically trip on cords. Bad news if the cord is attached to the bass. I have never in all my years left a bass plugged in between sets. Nor do most musicians I gig with.

 

[bucephylus]

I remember reading years ago that you could use the -15db and the "Speaker" buttons together on the JDI in a pinch as a mute IFF you were feeding it a line or mic-level signal. The Speaker button engages their parallel speaker circuit which is effectively a large attenuator (but not a "loader") when engaged. They also recommended unplugging the instrument cable from the DI side before you pull your instrument-side plug.

Thanks. I did look at exactly what you are describing. Still, yanking the plug from the DI before disconnecting the cable from the bass…I’m sure would work. But, doing that every set just seems like it would get old in a hurry.

Anyhow thanks for your thoughtful reply.

 

[bucephylus]

On the Subway TT-800 the PRE-EQ DI signal is taken prior to the GAIN control. The MUTE switch mutes everything. This is your NO FAIL solution. By the way, the first reply to the original post was by the guy that designed the TT-800.

Thanks. I know and respect Andy.

From the manual:
“PRE-EQ DIRECT OUTPUT:
This output is pre-channel gain stages, but is a little unique due to some enhanced features that make it more useful for many practical applications. The signal take-off point for this output is post front end gain, post deep and post bright switches as well as being tube driven by the very first tube stage.”

My read of “post front end gain” means that the input volume knob affects the send to the board. But, I’m perfectly happy to hear that I am wrong.

BTW, my Demeter amps do the same thing. While I am completely pleased by the tonality of these amps, I’m just trying to work around having a volume knob on the send to the FOH. My Demeter VTDI has no volume knob, and still sends a tube driven Jensen DI to the board. But, again.that’s a separate box. Doesn’t seem weird to me to prefer to have a non-volume knob affected send to the DI. But, if folks want to decide I’m a moron for preferring that aspect, then have at it.

I do understand the TT800 Channel Gain can be used to adjust stage volume, independent of DI send.

 

[Egg250]

I get that you're trying to simplify your set up. But, without a tuner, how do you tune between sets? Getting past that, doesn't your bass have a gain knob?

Take this opportunity...design the perfect DI pedal. Secure the marketing and production, get rich.