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The Dispersion Issue
- Thread starter BassOnTheSide
- Start date
Lets hope not. It has taken a reasonable turn. My point? Don't throw stones and complain if one comes back at you. Lets hope we are over it, no "piling on".
I hope some others will do the same, it's not only me.....
- Mar 8, 2011
- 12,232
- 51,187
- Disclosures
- Authorized greenboy designs builder/Owner of BNA Audio
Going back to the OP.
"Does the crowd really care?"
It's not their responsibility to 'care' about off axis dispersion or any other tech stuff. It's our responsibility to give the best presentation of our music as we possibly can. I like to think the listeners get greater pleasure from good sounding, well performed music, even if they don't know why.
That is a pretty solid nutshell. Electronic amplification added a whole new level of responsibility and art to musicianship.
As a bass player, most of the time if I'm doing my job well (and I sound good), no one will notice me. But they will be dancing or otherwise enjoying the music.
Players in this boat probably start more threads than all the touring concert studio session record players put together. Dispersion rocks. Even the guitar player notices the lack of it with my 2x15 in a pub with no stage.
BTW any PA support to me means every instrument includung electric guitars and all drum pads, bass drum and cymbals is all supported by PA.
Sorry to say it this way but a random statement like I'm running my bass guitar with (or without) PA support means absolutely nothing as long as FOH sound (sound to the crowd) is unknown.
There is a couple of things a pro PA system will do in a way better way than my "crappy" smallish MI cabs can do.
rant on
as FOH engineer most of the time I'd wish to have no bass sound from stage nothing at all ecxcept sophisticated sounds.
rant off
Sorry to say it this way but a random statement like I'm running my bass guitar with (or without) PA support means absolutely nothing as long as FOH sound (sound to the crowd) is unknown.
There is a couple of things a pro PA system will do in a way better way than my "crappy" smallish MI cabs can do.
rant on
as FOH engineer most of the time I'd wish to have no bass sound from stage nothing at all ecxcept sophisticated sounds.
rant off
Last edited:
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,051
- 5
- 221,020
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
The point I tried nicely to make is that the claim that it "beams like crazy" is inaccurate and in fact is just false. The array is to short and the number/geometry of the elements just won't make this happen even if that was a design goal.
I have heard the cabinet and it does not beam like crazy, others here have mentioned the clarity and ease of hearing themselves, and Arjank's quote about lack of clarity/muddy was in error (the opposite of what the original poster's comment said, probably a language-translation error).
I am very careful to provide clear, factually and mathematically accurate information when I comment, I have been designing pro audio gear for 35 years and many of you have used gear from projects I have been involved with. I have no problem with anybody discussing technology oriented subjects with me, but it gets old when incorrect or inaccurate statements are made as fact by somebody who doesn't understand the complete picture, and then my words are incorrectly quoted and used against my position. I do not do this with anybody here, and IMO, it's just as disrespectful when it's done to me.
Is Arjank a manufacturer/designer as he claims or is he just a regular forum member? If he is a manufacturer/designer then it would be most helpful to others in the discussion for his user profile to reflect his true status.
alexclaber
Commercial User
I think this is one of the best sites for learning about the value of dispersion: Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Pros of good dispersion:
1. Easier to hear yourself
2. Easier for your bandmates to hear you
3. Easier for your audience to hear you
4. More consistent tone with changing listener position
5. More consistent tone in different venues with different acoustics
6. Stage-monitoring becomes less important
7. PA support becomes less important
8. Any bleed into mics sounds more like your preferred tone
9. You get a better performance from the band because they're all hearing the music better
10. The audience enjoy the gig more because the band are playing better
Cons of good dispersion:
1. More bleed into mics
2. Your mistakes are more likely to get heard
3. If you talk about it you risk being accused of being some techy nerd who's more interested in gear than music...
I like good dispersion because I hate fiddling with gear when I'm in 'musician mode' and a cab with good dispersion makes setting up, sound checking and gigging a whole lot easier - especially when you're playing small venues with less than ideal sound engineering and PA systems.
Pros of good dispersion:
1. Easier to hear yourself
2. Easier for your bandmates to hear you
3. Easier for your audience to hear you
4. More consistent tone with changing listener position
5. More consistent tone in different venues with different acoustics
6. Stage-monitoring becomes less important
7. PA support becomes less important
8. Any bleed into mics sounds more like your preferred tone
9. You get a better performance from the band because they're all hearing the music better
10. The audience enjoy the gig more because the band are playing better
Cons of good dispersion:
1. More bleed into mics
2. Your mistakes are more likely to get heard
3. If you talk about it you risk being accused of being some techy nerd who's more interested in gear than music...
I like good dispersion because I hate fiddling with gear when I'm in 'musician mode' and a cab with good dispersion makes setting up, sound checking and gigging a whole lot easier - especially when you're playing small venues with less than ideal sound engineering and PA systems.
I also wrote a whole other bunch of cheesy stuff about community and letting go in my posts above you may feel like having a look at just for giggles.
But since I hold no hopes that I can change the fact you two grind each other's gears, nor do I really care that much, I'll follow my own advice and stick to technical aspects. Does the array not beam severely in the vertical plan just because it's short, and so it can't be worse than, say, a guitar twelve inch, or are there other factors? And no, yeah, it is an honest question, I've got exactly zero preconceived opinions about the 12-3, no hidden agenda, no fanboyism, no siding with anyone. After all this is why I come here, to learn stuff from anyone willing to break it down for people like me. I just wish this was the only kind of stooping on their part.
I play gigs that are all over the map. For smaller venues, FOH will only have vox. Other places will do vox, kick, and horns if there are any. Other places will add in a DI bass feed. Still other places have everything mic'd and FOH is responsible for almost all of what the audience hears. As a bass player who plays in multiple bands in venues from restaurants (often) to festivals (not so often), I have to deal with all of the above. So I need a rig that can handle them, and I also know I'll run into situations where I'm going to have to leave my rig in the car as they'll insist on using the backline (which invariably is inferior to what I've got - but their call).
That's my reality as a player in Los Angeles. Others may have a different experience, but over the past 500+ gigs, I've been mostly responsible for what the house hears. Part of that is the venue and gig (fair amount of jazz), but there have been other situations where we preferred to control our own stage sound and present that to the audience. Lot's of variables, and often they are beyond my control. That's why I like to be able to control the ones that I can.
rant on
FOH "engineers" who think they know what a good bass sound is, usually cutting the mids and boosting the subwoofer. Which is 180 degrees from what I usually need for a given show. That happens a fair amount in this town.
rant off
we are probably "more" used to get to PA what the event (suroundings) demands. There is no absolute values like "PA support" or "no PA support". Sometimes it's a little more volume for bass guitar, sometime a littel bit more for vocals, it all depends.
In Germany most FOH engineers don't like superficial sound from stage to the audience, they rather like to "control" FOH sound, for good reasons.
Sophisticated sounds from stage is a different animal, as well as "mixed" sounds (stage sound mixed with PA sound) but that's a very different story
Last edited:
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,051
- 5
- 221,020
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Correct, there are other factors that I mentioned, including the size and spacing of the individual elements, the number of the elements and the total length of the array. There appears to be an additional aspect as well, because in my work with larger format pro audio line array designs the placement of the array in the center of the driver creates what looks like a co-linear (rather than coaxial) alignment, and the array in the center of the driver can advantageously alter the pattern of the LF element. This principle is "commonly" used in large format line arrays to meld summed energy patterns in the horizontal plane, like a "first approximation" solution. Because of the placement and dimensions of the column, I would expect this effect to be present.
An interesting general note about line arrays. It's often said that the vertical pattern of an array is, say, 40 degrees, therefore nothing is heard beyond the 40 degrees.. This is a very simplistic and inaccurate answer because the 40 degrees is still based somewhat on frequency, and it's not a brick wall cutoff but a 3 dimensional function of level versus position and frequency. At 50 degrees, the output may be 8dB down at some frequency (say 1000Hz) but now if you are only 5 feet away at 50 degrees, the level will be the same as on axis at ~20 feet, so position (distance) is just as important as position (angularity from the axis). So, the level match may in fact be pretty darn ideal close but off axis. This is one of the principal aspects of acoustic energy density shading for level balancing and can be seen every day in the large format system "J array" topology, where fewer boxes and greater splay (less on axis summed energy) at the bottom of the J reduce energy density to match up with the rest of the system at a farther distance.
You are not the only one who is interested in this topic. I have received some really good and interesting questions about this topic via PM, which is why I feel that it is important for the community as a whole that this discussion remain accurate rather than simplistic (black-white) rule of thumb only. I hope this information helps understand why I have a problem with somebody stating exclusionary "black and white" answers for a decidedly "gray" situation. It just can't be black and white because to make it so would be to eliminate ALL of the most important real world variables.
Well, that's why I typically try to qualify what the parameters are when I post an opinion. I will usually say "no FOH support" (which can be thought of as "no PA support"), which means my amp is providing all of the bass sound to the room. From the bass player's perspective, it is a very black/white thing - I'm either giving a DI feed or not (I think I've been mic'd maybe once or twice the past 6 years - that's really rare). Beyond that, it is just details of how much else is running through FOH, and how good the monitor mix is. And of course, the room...
Getting back to the OP's query - dispersion is especially important to me since I often don't have FOH and I want to be heard. That said, even when I've got FOH I still want good dispersion as I need to hear myself on stage. I have yet to do an IEM show as it isn't supported by the places I've played. I'm very cognizant of overall volume and would love to go to an IEM setup with everything running through FOH. But that doesn't happen on smaller gigs (no infrastructure), and it doesn't happen in most clubs due to lack of infrastructure and/or having 45 min showcase sets where they want you to plug into the backline, play, and get the hell out.
Basically I have to be as flexible as possible, and play the best music we can no matter what situation we encounter. Maybe I just play a lot of crappy gigs
Not sure what you mean to say but it seems like you would deny line arrayed PA was a good idea and that is patently not true.
Beaming in the vertical plane doesn't matter if you are in the beam. That's how tilting back a cab works for a monitor at close range.
I have a question about the dispersion of the quad stacked 3" driver array. With the cabinet on the floor behind me, if I turn off three of the four stacked drivers and just go with one then I will have a certain level of highs at ear level with no beaming. It may be adequate I don't know. If I then turn on the other three will there be a reduction in the level of highs at my ear relative to the one driver case?
I guess the point is, if it beams but the SPL at ear level is the same in both cases (and is adequate) then I don't care and am pleased that it increases it in the horizontal plane for listeners located horizontally off-axis.
I guess the point is, if it beams but the SPL at ear level is the same in both cases (and is adequate) then I don't care and am pleased that it increases it in the horizontal plane for listeners located horizontally off-axis.
Beaming isn't a bad thing on the vertical plane. There's nothing to be gained by directing sound where no one's going to hear it. The vertical pattern of four threes might be too tight to hear if the cabs on the floor and you're not standing 20 feet away, but it's not that big a deal to tilt it back or lift it. You have to do the same thing with almost any cab to hear the mids. You could make the vertical pattern relative to frequency more uniform with power shading, but it's probably not worthwhile with that short an array.
