The Dispersion Issue

[agedhorse]

Q: What is the best cab?
A: The one at your immediate disposal.

I worked a gig quite a few years back, the bass player was a real grade A, number one prick to the backline company (who brought what the player asked for, but a different year than he wanted though he didn't specify). After throwing what could be most nicely described as a tantrum, the back line company rolled the gear back out into the truck and took off, he was done with the abuse. In this case, ANY cabinet would have been better off than the alternative... and the tour manager stuck it to the player by forcing him to play direct and it was an in-ear gig with only 2 wedges for the guitar player (IIRC). I am pretty sure this behavior was not new, just that this time the back line company had the balls to pack up and go home. Bandmates apologized to everybody working the gig...

 

[ThisBass]

I'm aware of how cross firing works. I've had cross firing tweeters in my Jack 12 cab for seven years, and my HT center is a nine element CBT array.

Any experience with "critical" midrange/treble band coming out of full range running woofers?

 

[nostatic]

You guys are pathetic

ah, you've been talking to my ex-wife...

Contextualizing opinions is core to critical thinking and analysis. TB has a fairly broad user demographic, with a wide variety of personal and professional experiences. Unless you have a history here and really pay attention, it can be difficult to know how someone comes to the opinions that they post. Taking a post a face value will no doubt lead to confusion.

For instance, a TB'er might say, "this is the best amp I've ever played." For the reader, that should immediately beg at least two questions:

1. what other amps did they play?
2. what is their definition of "play"?

The reason for #1 is obvious - the opinion is an inherent comparison, and context is everything. A point of reference is needed to understand how that opinion might be relevant to me or anyone else.

#2 is about understanding the parameters that led to the conclusion. The style of music, the experience level of the player, and where the data was gathered. Is their playing in their bedroom? Jamming with buddies once or twice a month? Gigging doing casuals in different bands in different venues? Touring? In the studio? Those are all very different situations that have an impact on how well gear performs.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but they are not all "created equal", and they also are not necessarily relevant to everyone or even many. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't post them - that's what TB is about. And a touring professional isn't any better or worse than someone who plays for fun in their bedroom. But their needs and experiences will likely differ drastically, and that will go into their opinion. For others to find their opinion useful, they need to understand context. Spending time here and "getting to know" posters is one way to help with context. Profiles are another way to help inform that. Of course people can lie on their profiles - this is the interwebs where everyone is 6'2", ripped, and handsome. But history has taught me that typically the loudest critics provide the least about of context for their opinions. Caveat emptor.

 

[BassOnTheSide]

I'm curious to hear more from the experts about any drawbacks to angling the woofers in or out (as posted earlier). I know Trace Elliot made a 3x12 guitar cab back in the day that I believe had all three drivers angled inward. I always wondered why I haven't seen a bass cab with the woofers angled. What are the tradeoffs? I'm too lazy to scroll back but I believe someone said reduced SPL?

 

[agedhorse]

I'm curious to hear more from the experts about any drawbacks to angling the woofers in or out (as posted earlier). I know Trace Elliot made a 3x12 guitar cab back in the day that I believe had all three drivers angled inward. I always wondered why I haven't seen a bass cab with the woofers angled. What are the tradeoffs? I'm too lazy to scroll back but I believe someone said reduced SPL?

IMO, it depends. There are some benefits and some drawbacks.

I designed a commercial PA speaker about 20 years ago that used 15" drivers that angled together, the reason was to increase the ~50-70Hz output while keeping the box profile small. It worked pretty well, but I found that there was a distortion of sorts produced in the low midrange (~500-1000Hz) that was much more manageable with a phase control waveguide between the drivers which minimized (and linearized) the interaction between the two source. This was in the day before Neo drivers, so the box, while small, was pretty heavy and kind of expensive by today's standards. It was also flyable (with the proper hardware installed).

For bass guitar, some folks might like the distortion and what it does to the overall voicing of the box (without the HF horn, which was pretty substantial by bass guitar standards).

 

[Rick James]

Any experience with "critical" midrange/treble band coming out of full range running woofers?

I've built some BFM XF guitar cabs for friends, including the lead player in the band I mainly work with. They're like night and day compared to Fender/Marshall and so forth. Look ma, no beaming!

I always wondered why I haven't seen a bass cab with the woofers angled. What are the tradeoffs?

The angling makes the interior of the cab smaller, so you lose low end unless you compensate by making the cab much deeper. That's a negative from a marketing standpoint. Besides, they look different, and most bass players have problems with anything that looks different.

 

[FourBanger]

I'm with those who say it is the PAs job to disperse my sound and if there isn't PA then the guitars and drummer are going to be bigger problems than the bassist, so why worry?

 

[B-string]

Why worry? 'Cause I'm not just there for a paycheck .

 

[Djadja]

back to the OP... dispersion is an issue that I thought about when I purchased my most recent cab (a Genzler BA12-3). My most common gig is in a church band where we are set up the same way every week although I also play about once a month in a club. I had been using an Acme B2. I wasn't getting complaints from the rest of the band but when I started with the Genzler, they all told me that they could hear me better... and that made the band sound better. I'm sure that made the listeners like what they are hearing better as well.

 

[R Baer]

..Makers are more interested in promoting their claims by not providing any measurement. I don't get it. Bass players shouldn't buy into this without proof. Surviving in the market isn't proof, that's marketing....Best cabs at dispersion are from pro-sound where they actually publish charts on the dispersion patterns. Horizontal and vertical.

Sea - I know you are hung up on the measurement thing, but honestly, I doubt there are more than a handful of players who can tell what a cab will sound like in their signal chain based on the spec sheet. The pro audio guys who spend a couple hundred grand on a PA system are in a different league than your typical bassist when it comes to understanding this stuff. I've played thru some very high end PA speakers with very impressive specs that I didn't think sounded very good as a bass cabinet.

Truly accurate measurements are also very difficult to do and unless your'e Phil Jones who has his own state of the art testing facility, the cost of doing so can't be recouped in the small number of cabinets we sell as bass amp guys. Let's face it, the bass reflex cabinet is not the most complicated piece of equipment and most of us know what to expect from one. I do agree however that the burden of proof should be on any manufacturer claiming their design does something no other cab can do.

Personally, I think the only way to tell if you are going to like the sound of cab is to hook it up to the rest of your gear and play through it. As far as doing research, most of us publish basic specs. From there, talk to someone who has used the cab. Look at the threads on the product and see if it sounds like your cup of tea. Try some You Tube clips. As for the theory that we don't publish detailed specs because we have something to hide, in our case, we offer a 10 day trail period. If it doesn't float your boat, send it back.

 

[will33]

Yes. I care.

As for whether the crowd "cares", that's a funny question. The crowd knows whether they can hear me or not. Assuming that I'm playing well, which I always strive to do, then the crowd generally cares about whether or not they can hear me. To the extent that my cabs disperse well then, one could say that the crowd "cares".

MM

This a good answer.

I used to not care because I didn't know. Just knew that stuff sounded good in some places but not in others. Just figured "that's just the way it is", and went about beating my head against the wall trying to make it sound "ok" in as many places as I could while making it sound bad in as few places as I could without really knowing the how's and why's of why it sounded good in this spot or bad in that spot.

Then I learned some things. Went on a dispersion kick for a while before I learned directivity has it's benefits. A little knowledge can be dangerous.

I still want dispersion in general, but it's not a be-all-end-all. It depends on the situation, but I really don't care how good a rig sounds to my ears only at a certain spot 6ft. in front of it if it doesn't sound that good to other folks listening from other places.

If you're only playing for yourself, headphones will suffice.

 

[will33]

There is a thread or two on this .5 alignment here on TB. I don't remember if a frequency was decided as most effective?

IIRC, something around 50o-600hz works well and doesn't need a steep filter. 12db at most though 6 could do it depending on the response of the driver. Granted you're cutting out half the drivers in the uppermids, ones that are "bright" or have a climbing response could end up "just right".

Also used in hifi to compensate for bafflestep but you already know that.

 

[Arjank]

My well meant comments and advise aren't appreciated here anymore, it seems that it annoys people and they can't handle critique about certain design choices. The good thing is, I'm VERY annoyed by a few of you!
It WAS a nice place here but not anymore.

 

[dukeorock]

Could this thread possibly get a little more rediculous and spiteful?

Not to mention the guerrilla marketing

 

[R Baer]

I'm curious to hear more from the experts about any drawbacks to angling the woofers in or out (as posted earlier). I know Trace Elliot made a 3x12 guitar cab back in the day that I believe had all three drivers angled inward. I always wondered why I haven't seen a bass cab with the woofers angled. What are the tradeoffs? I'm too lazy to scroll back but I believe someone said reduced SPL?

I don't think it's a simple as just saying one design concept works, or doesn't work. It's all about the individual design and how well it is executed by the manufacturer. I used to play an old Fender Bassman cab that had 4 12" drivers, each on a separate baffle angled facing inwards. By the looks of the thing, it sound have sounded good over a very wide area, but in reality, it wasn't the greatest sounding cab in the world and I don't remember ever noticing that dispersion was any different than my other cabs.

One of the major drawbacks of angling the baffles inward is that you reduce the internal volume a lot. That Bassman cab was quite huge. In fact, I replaced that cab with an early SWR 410, which we know has some dispersion issues, yet I was much happier with that cab.

 

[BassOnTheSide]

As an aside: It's too bad shipping is so expensive. How cool would be be if there was something like "Pedal Genie" but for bass cabs, where one could rent all these cool new cabs on the market, to try them in our own rig? But with shipping costs, this would probably be no cheaper than just buying and reselling them. Maybe we could pool money to buy a bunch of cabs we could all share I get them first.

 

[Jeff Genzler]

As an aside: It's too bad shipping is so expensive. How cool would be be if there was something like "Pedal Genie" but for bass cabs, where one could rent all these cool new cabs on the market, to try them in our own rig? But with shipping costs, this would probably be no cheaper than just buying and reselling them. Maybe we could pool money to buy a bunch of cabs we could all share I get them first.

The core of your comment here is what this all boils down to. There are a lot of interesting and innovative designs available from many companies on this forum and there can be all sorts of technical data, plots and charts to substantiate those designs but so much of that can be unclear or miss understood when it comes to how will this product perform "LIVE" for me.
It really comes down to what do these products offer in the real world and with your specific requirements. Certainly player comments on the forum help substantiate those real world observations and expectations.
Even with tons of technical data or a powerful, slick marketing campaign --- if a product does not deliver, you really can't hide that fact.

 

[BassOnTheSide]

Agree 100%

 

[Passinwind]

As an aside: It's too bad shipping is so expensive. How cool would be be if there was something like "Pedal Genie" but for bass cabs, where one could rent all these cool new cabs on the market, to try them in our own rig? But with shipping costs, this would probably be no cheaper than just buying and reselling them. Maybe we could pool money to buy a bunch of cabs we could all share I get them first.

Talkbass GTGs have worked a lot like that for many of us, FWIW.

 

[BassOnTheSide]

Talkbass GTGs have worked a lot like that for many of us, FWIW.

I was wondering about that too. I guess I need to follow such things more closely. Is there a thread for GTG's? I know I'd be willing to drive a little ways and bring my gear if I could go check out a bunch of other cool gear.