The Dispersion Issue

[Passinwind]

I was wondering about that too. I guess I need to follow such things more closely. Is there a thread for GTG's? I know I'd be willing to drive a little ways and bring my gear if I could go check out a bunch of other cool gear.

There's a whole subforum for GTGs. I've flown across the country partly to attend one and it was totally worth it to me. It also might be worth considering just organizing one on your own terms if you don't see what you want, IME.

 

[nostatic]

My well meant comments and advise aren't appreciated here anymore, it seems that it annoys people and they can't handle critique about certain design choices. The good thing is, I'm VERY annoyed by a few of you!
It WAS a nice place here but not anymore.

 

[bucephylus]

Contextualizing opinions is core to critical thinking and analysis. TB has a fairly broad user demographic, with a wide variety of personal and professional experiences. Unless you have a history here and really pay attention, it can be difficult to know how someone comes to the opinions that they post. Taking a post a face value will no doubt lead to confusion.

For instance, a TB'er might say, "this is the best amp I've ever played." For the reader, that should immediately beg at least two questions:

1. what other amps did they play?
2. what is their definition of "play"?

The reason for #1 is obvious - the opinion is an inherent comparison, and context is everything. A point of reference is needed to understand how that opinion might be relevant to me or anyone else.

#2 is about understanding the parameters that led to the conclusion. The style of music, the experience level of the player, and where the data was gathered. Is their playing in their bedroom? Jamming with buddies once or twice a month? Gigging doing casuals in different bands in different venues? Touring? In the studio? Those are all very different situations that have an impact on how well gear performs.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but they are not all "created equal", and they also are not necessarily relevant to everyone or even many. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't post them - that's what TB is about. And a touring professional isn't any better or worse than someone who plays for fun in their bedroom. But their needs and experiences will likely differ drastically, and that will go into their opinion. For others to find their opinion useful, they need to understand context. Spending time here and "getting to know" posters is one way to help with context. Profiles are another way to help inform that. Of course people can lie on their profiles - this is the interwebs where everyone is 6'2", ripped, and handsome. But history has taught me that typically the loudest critics provide the least about of context for their opinions. Caveat emptor.

Thanks for the great post nostatic.

This is the Internet, and TB does unfortunately have some participants who need to validate themselves by making others appear less knowledgeable. It's pretty easy to spot because there are within-the-rules condemnation of something another poster has said, followed by some kind of nebulous assertion of expertise, followed by nothing that anyone can reproduce, implement, or reduce to practice that provides any perceptible improvement.

Let's see what was the OP question again?

I'll say this to the OP: I have not once in my playing adventures lost an audition or been tossed from a gig due to dispersion issues. Take that FWIW. Dispersive projection variations can occur, and it's a good idea to understand the practical aspects as to how it happens and what the result is.

 

[technocraft]

As an aside: It's too bad shipping is so expensive. How cool would be be if there was something like "Pedal Genie" but for bass cabs, where one could rent all these cool new cabs on the market, to try them in our own rig? But with shipping costs, this would probably be no cheaper than just buying and reselling them. Maybe we could pool money to buy a bunch of cabs we could all share I get them first.

Sorry man, I don't see that happening. The cost-to-ship vs value-of-item is just too off for it to work...

 

[alexclaber]

For instance, a TB'er might say, "this is the best amp I've ever played." For the reader, that should immediately beg at least two questions:

1. what other amps did they play?
2. what is their definition of "play"?

I do recall an instance of a particularly opinionated poster (when it came to tone etc) mentioning that he had serious hearing damage...

 

[Arjank]

But history has taught me that typically the loudest critics provide the least about of context for their opinions. Caveat emptor.

What point are you trying to make?
You think I can't place my comments about the four 3" drivers vertical array of the Genzler cabinet into context why it's IMO/IME a not so great idea? especially for a basscabinet you put on the floor? Doesn't the player himself need some mid/highs when he stands almost in front of the cabinet? Not if his tone is lows and mids, then it's not much of a problem but when mid/highs are part of his tone he won't hear 'm clearly.
I play bass like 25 years now and one of the things that I didn't like about the majority of basscabinets is that they only let you hear the mid/highs when you have these cabs on ear level. In the past I have tried many things, even a small separate mid/high cab to put on top of the basscab. Building and designing loudspeakers isn't something I've done in the past 5 years, add 25 years to that. I've build and experimented a lot, I've studied hundreds of designs (from hifi - studiomonitors - basscabs). And don't dare to think I'm only doing "numbers", it's a combination of praxis and "numbers" (theory, simulations, measurements). If there are enough measurements and other designinformation I can have a very good approximation of how a certain design will sound, this is what one would call experience.

Been there done that....

 

[Jools4001]

I usually read through the whole of threads like this, in this case I haven't had time. Just sticking to an answer for the OP, it's pretty clear to me that there are those bassists who regularly enjoy full PA support and the services of a FOH engineer, and those who have to carry the whole gig from the backline.

For the former, I agree that dispersion isn't so important because you have already outsourced your FOH tone to whatever the sound guy wants to do with it (and anyway, a decent PA will have no dispersion issues from the audiences standpoint), so having a rig that sounds great when you are right in front of it may be all you need.

I am not in that camp. I'm in a decent hard rock covers band that gets PA support on the occasional festival slot we do, but otherwise we play in bars and clubs; we bring our own PA and mix from stage, so my rig has to carry the room.

At one of the pubs we play at, the landlord is also in a band. After our last gig he said to me "you're the only bass player we get down here where you can feel the bass in your chest and feet, but you can still hear every note you play anywhere in the bar without you being ear splittingly loud, how the hell do you do it?". I told him that I work hard at my sound....but the real secret is Barefaced.

 

[nostatic]

What point are you trying to make?
You think I can't place my comments about the four 3" drivers vertical array of the Genzler cabinet into context why it's IMO/IME a not so great idea? especially for a basscabinet you put on the floor? Doesn't the player himself need some mid/highs when he stands almost in front of the cabinet? Not if his tone is lows and mids, then it's not much of a problem but when mid/highs are part of his tone he won't hear 'm clearly.
I play bass like 25 years now and one of the things that I didn't like about the majority of basscabinets is that they only let you hear the mid/highs when you have these cabs on ear level. In the past I have tried many things, even a small separate mid/high cab to put on top of the basscab. Building and designing loudspeakers isn't something I've done in the past 5 years, add 25 years to that. I've build and experimented a lot, I've studied hundreds of designs (from hifi - studiomonitors - basscabs). And don't dare to think I'm only doing "numbers", it's a combination of praxis and "numbers" (theory, simulations, measurements). If there are enough measurements and other designinformation I can have a very good approximation of how a certain design will sound, this is what one would call experience.

Been there done that....

You are welcome to make your comments. That's why were here But my point still stands, and in the above you still didn't address my context points.

"I play bass like 25 years now" - that still doesn't give much context. Is that gigging in clubs? Touring stadiums? Recording in the studio? Playing at home? And what styles of music?

Those all are all different environments that will give different empirical results. Plus it depends on what tone *you* prefer and are chasing.

"I didn't like...the majority of bass cabinets" - which ones? And how recent? Are we talking a few or dozens of different cabinets, and under what conditions (trying in a shop, at home, at a gig)?

Again - those variables all play into the opinion that one forms.

My wife is an artist, and she also teaches at a famous art school. Critique is part and parcel of what artists need to learn, and key to that is articulation. Since art is largely subjective, in order to get and give critique, an artist needs to be able to articulate their parameters that went into creating a piece. Only then can people give meaningful feedback. I view these discussions in much the same manner. Anyone can say, "this is better", but without a frame of reference and background, that opinion isn't particularly useful to others, and it doesn't help advance the discussion.

fwiw I didn't listen to Genzler's cab, but I gig other cabs with 3" paper cone drivers. With Duke's Hathor, he has slotted the top compartment to get sound up towards the player. With Mike's MAS109, he has the 3" speakers on angled baffles, one of which is pointed up towards the player. Those work really well for me in a variety of venues.

 

[Arjank]

"

You are welcome to make your comments. That's why were here But my point still stands, and in the above you still didn't address my context points.

"I play bass like 25 years now" - that still doesn't give much context. Is that gigging in clubs? Touring stadiums? Recording in the studio? Playing at home? And what styles of music?

Those all are all different environments that will give different empirical results. Plus it depends on what tone *you* prefer and are chasing.

"I didn't like...the majority of bass cabinets" - which ones? And how recent? Are we talking a few or dozens of different cabinets, and under what conditions (trying in a shop, at home, at a gig)?

Again - those variables all play into the opinion that one forms.

My wife is an artist, and she also teaches at a famous art school. Critique is part and parcel of what artists need to learn, and key to that is articulation. Since art is largely subjective, in order to get and give critique, an artist needs to be able to articulate their parameters that went into creating a piece. Only then can people give meaningful feedback. I view these discussions in much the same manner. Anyone can say, "this is better", but without a frame of reference and background, that opinion isn't particularly useful to others, and it doesn't help advance the discussion.

IMO you've overlooked the real context part, I'll quote it here:
"especially for a basscabinet you put on the floor? Doesn't the player himself need some mid/highs when he stands almost in front of the cabinet? Not if his tone is lows and mids, then it's not much of a problem but when mid/highs are part of his tone he won't hear 'm clearly"

The rest of my post is rather irrelevant to the specific design we're talking about here, it's plain physics. I can go into more detail if that's needed.

 

[nostatic]

"

IMO you've overlooked the real context part, I'll quote it here:
"especially for a basscabinet you put on the floor? Doesn't the player himself need some mid/highs when he stands almost in front of the cabinet? Not if his tone is lows and mids, then it's not much of a problem but when mid/highs are part of his tone he won't hear 'm clearly"

The rest of my post is rather irrelevant to the specific design we're talking about here, it's plain physics. I can go into more detail if that's needed.

Read the last bit I added to my post - the designs I'm gigging these days have addressed that.

I really like my mids - that aspect of the spectrum is important to me. Easy to hear what I like and how I play (links in my sig to studio and live albums).

Duke's Hathor 1203 has slots on the top/side of the cabinet in the chamber with the 3" driver. That helps me hear those frequencies easily even when I'm standing/sitting right in front (which I typically end up doing, as I'm often on tight stages):

Mike's MAS109 has 3" drivers on angled baffles. That helps with hearing when I'm right on the cabinet:

 

[dukeorock]

Bit of a dogpile on Ajank here. To be fair, he's a very smart dude who is passionate about speaker design. He's designed a couple really interesting cabs and even recently shared a design free of charge here on TB, which is pretty darn cool. English isn't his first language and I think occasionally that's tripped a couple of folks up.

I'm thrilled that we have access to great designers, players and thinkers. I'm thrilled that the context that forms our opinions is varied.

Personally, I appreciate strong opinions from smart people. I appreciate human decency and good manners even more.

Sorry for the derail

 

[Arjank]

Read the last bit I added to my post - the designs I'm gigging these days have addressed that.

I really like my mids - that aspect of the spectrum is important to me. Easy to hear what I like and how I play (links in my sig to studio and live albums).

Duke's Hathor 1203 has slots on the top/side of the cabinet in the chamber with the 3" driver. That helps me hear those frequencies easily even when I'm standing/sitting right in front (which I typically end up doing, as I'm often on tight stages):

Mike's MAS109 has 3" drivers on angled baffles. That helps with hearing when I'm right on the cabinet:

And what point are making here? That 3" drivers can work in basscabs and have good dispersion? Sure they can but not four of 'm in a vertical array, this compromises the vertical dispersion. Both solutions (Duke's and Mike's) are valid and elegant ones, but also introduce other "properties" that may be (depending on the bassplayers taste or tonal goals) positive or negative.

 

[HaphAsSard]

...

Dude. Before this ends up in a crapstorm, I'll speak my mind.
I'd rather you stayed. Yours, Astro and the Cajun jentleman's posts are required reading for me, even if I often don't understand much, or sometimes aren't entirely convinced. Don't let it all get to you. And, in the spirit of having a nice technical chat instead of an eSwordfight, you may want to consider shaping your objections in form of questions, rather than statements, especially when the boss of the company that makes the product is a member here and can answer directly if he chooses to do so.

To all the polemists here: why not stick to specific points instead of ganging up on a poster who's easily incensed? If the advice given threatens to tear the fabric of reality itself if followed by a newb, shouldn't simply expressing a differing view suffice? Do we really value clique over diversity?

Re credentials: who really cares? If the opinion expressed is really inferior shouldn't the market of ideas outvote it instead of the pedigree of the poster?

This said, y'all do what you want, as you would anyway.

 

[nostatic]

And what point are making here? That 3" drivers can work in basscabs and have good dispersion? Sure they can but not four of 'm in a vertical array, this compromises the vertical dispersion. Both solutions (Duke's and Mike's) are valid and elegant ones, but also introduce other "properties" that may be (depending on the bassplayers taste or tonal goals) positive or negative.

That is exactly my point - and is based on my experience and tone goals.

fwiw I wasn't trying to "pile on". You made a comment that you hadn't encountered any cabinet better than your coaxial design in providing good mid projection. I merely asked, "compared to what?" I'm not defending Jeff's array - I haven't gigged that cab so I don't know. I have gigged Duke's and now Mike's cabs (as well as various Berg, Baer, Tecamp, SWR, Ampeg, Aguilar etc) and find that dispersion is not an issue with my current setups, and I have excellent mid/upper mid tone.

 

[HaphAsSard]

Oh, and thanks for this, Duke:

Bit of a dogpile on Ajank here. To be fair, he's a very smart dude who is passionate about speaker design. He's designed a couple really interesting cabs and even recently shared a design free of charge here on TB, which is pretty darn cool. English isn't his first language and I think occasionally that's tripped a couple of folks up.

I'm thrilled that we have access to great designers, players and thinkers. I'm thrilled that the context that forms our opinions is varied.

Personally, I appreciate strong opinions from smart people. I appreciate human decency and good manners even more.

Sorry for the derail

 

[Arjank]

you may want to consider shaping your objections in form of questions, rather than statements,

The thing is, I did.

 

[Arjank]

I merely asked, "compared to what?".

Tough question, I've heard so many cabs and tried so many configurations myself, the coaxial version is just what stands out in terms of uniform dispersion (of course you'll loose a bit of zing when you stand directly in front of it, there's no magic here) and pin-point accuracy. The latter was also one of my design goals and you loose that with almost all of the other options, it also helps in cutting through the mix.

Last comment.
No design is perfect, it can only be made perfect for the specific design and tonal goals.

 

[HaphAsSard]

^ This is more of what I was referring to.

To all who may give a damn: either you view this as a community of sorts, or you don't. If you do, post accordingly. It's not only a matter of manners, but also one of counting to ten in the interest of a proficuous exchange of opinions.

 

[B-string]

??? You should know better.
I've tried such arrangements myself and they beam.

There are valid designs and some just don't work and only look interesting.
[snip]
And probably you can't take someones opinion, your comments are always written in such a way that you feel that you are the only one who's correct and there's no other valid answer.

I'm outta here, bye

^ This was not.

 

[HaphAsSard]

And here we go again.