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The Eagle Has Landed!!! Sadowsky All-Tube Head!!!

#242
but this is not about comparing gear and prices. It's about understanding why on Sadowsky forums one can't state they have negative issues without being flamed and yet on other threads there can be at least some semblance of a logical back and forth discussion and actually some resolution occasiionallly. My last post was only meant to see in the two examples given, where people might draw the line as to what is and what isn't "flamming".

I would appreciate your opinion on this exact matter in addition to your suggestion about starting another thread about pricing.

thanks

Lkaye
 
#243
Larry Kaye said:
but this is not about comparing gear and prices. It's about understanding why on Sadowsky forums one can't state they have negative issues without being flamed and yet on other threads there can be at least some semblance of a logical back and forth discussion and actually some resolution occasiionallly. My last post was only meant to see in the two examples given, where people might draw the line as to what is and what isn't "flamming".

I would appreciate your opinion on this exact matter in addition to your suggestion about starting another thread about pricing.

thanks

Lkaye
Click to expand...
Can you show me a thread with your posts (from a different manufacturer) that you've been so against a product?
 
#244
"OMG SADOWKRYRYRY!!!!!! AMPO!!"
"***, it wont be worth it"
"yes it will"
"no it wont, it'll just be a Fender clone anyway"
"whats better the Bassman 400 or the Sadowsky amp?"
"shut up, noobie"
"didnt we talk about this twice already this week?"
"Extra! Extra! Sadowsky amp walk on water"
"SHUT UP, NOOBIE"
"Did you know, Sadowsky amps cured my athletes foot?"
 
#245
Larry Kaye said:
but this is not about comparing gear and prices. It's about understanding why on Sadowsky forums one can't state they have negative issues without being flamed and yet on other threads there can be at least some semblance of a logical back and forth discussion and actually some resolution occasiionallly. My last post was only meant to see in the two examples given, where people might draw the line as to what is and what isn't "flamming".

I would appreciate your opinion on this exact matter in addition to your suggestion about starting another thread about pricing.

thanks

Lkaye
Click to expand...

i dont really have an opinion about the issue but your opinions are good and valid. i just figured that condensing your thoughts in a specific thread about it might be a good idea. have to admit it is a schweet lookin head though isnt it? :D
 
#246
Larry Kaye said:
but this is not about comparing gear and prices. It's about understanding why on Sadowsky forums one can't state they have negative issues without being flamed and yet on other threads there can be at least some semblance of a logical back and forth discussion and actually some resolution occasiionallly. My last post was only meant to see in the two examples given, where people might draw the line as to what is and what isn't "flamming".

I would appreciate your opinion on this exact matter in addition to your suggestion about starting another thread about pricing.

thanks

Lkaye
Click to expand...

I guess I'm missing where you were flamed, Larry. You stated that you didn't think that the SA200 was worth the asking price, and people responded to the effect of "well, then don't buy it." These posts seem to have offended you somehow, which I don't get - especially given your apparent desire for people to be able to express their opinion. I just don't see where anyone has attacked you, other than asking why you feel compelled to keep saying over and over that the SA200 is not worth the asking price (and that you hate it when people tell you "then don't buy it").

I'm not trying to be rude. It's just that I don't see that you have been "flamed" or "attacked" in the way that you seem to be perceiving.

And yes, if you are trying to make a more broad point of some kind, would you mind making it in another thread?

Thanks, Tom.
 
#247
Nino..first...On the Schroeder megathread, there have been several guys, Including Tom Bowlus, correct Tom?, who have either said the Schroe's are not for them or have explained in more depth what it specifically was that caused their negative opinion.

I'm not saying everyone's perfect, but the guys on that thread including me, went outta our way to find out about the type of music they do, what other instruments and amplification were in the band, what bass, head, effects the poster was using, how they set the cabinet up (on it's side or horizontal) even what strings, guitar and speaker cords they used, and actually made suggestions like did you try eq'ing different, or turning the enhance knob off on your Eden head or whatever. drool? or if you can't afford it whatever comment follows.

I personally encouraged many of the posters there to tell us about any negatives or problems they may be having. I don't assume the product is perfect and works for everyone in every occasion, and I can't assume that everyone feels Sadowsky products are the cat's meow either.

Nino....The reason that I'm constantly (maybe not that often) picking on Sadowsky has NEVER EVER BEEN BECAUSE OF QUALITY and I truly believe that the SA200 is of the highest quality one can expect from a total highest reputation outsourcing.

However, I'm still waiting for some "real world" objective reasons from either of you or the other Sadowsky proponents about what makes this head so much more expensive than a Mesa 400+ or Ampeg SVTCL for instance. Forget the Traynor YBA200...it's a different breeda cat.

Regarding flaming Tom, I'm being told I don't get it? Get what? I've been playing bass for 40 years and have an additional 10 years on guitar and piano. What is it I don't get here? Is it that I don't understand the subjective opinions or observations of others as they don't understand mine? Yep, you're right. If that's the case, I could easily say that you guys don't get it either, but I go farther, I say you're entitled to your opinions, subjective or not and I am entitled to mine and to question your answers...but the bottom line is unless the area is quantitative, there is no right and wrong. It's all a matter of opinion. What's not is the price comparing features and benefits to features and benefits in a factual way.

Flaming, my opinion is of lesser respectability or reliability by being told if you can't afford it don't buy it, How does anyone there know what I can afford or not and what has that got to do with the validity of what I say or with my knowledge level of bass amplification or bass playing in general. Or..if I don't have any real interest in buying it, I'm being told not to post, or being told to shut up and drool? Why is it automatically ASSUMED that if someone questions the pricing of a Sadowsky product, "you're of a lesser financial status unable to afford one, and are therefore jealous or whatever.." Or if some of us don't hear the Sadowsky mystique in tone, we must be tone deaf or again, we can afford one?

It's all subjective horsemanure. It's all conjecture and assumption, marketing hype not backed up by any real facts or knowledge of facts. So when I obsess about the value, you know why....it's not explainable logically or at least, it hasn't been attempted. The only thing that is logical is that I'm allowed to post, question, comment until I break the rules...or get put on probation or are told to limit which threads I can post on, temporarily or permanently which I will do if ordered to by the powers to be.

In the meantime I only drool in my sleep Munji and my dreams are not of Sadowsky's SA200 or basses dancing around like little sugarplums. I dream of Audi R6 or Volvo R5 wagons and doing the hot MILF driving one. Yes Tom, I'm a station wagon (and graphic EQ) addict, with no GAS in these areas at the moment.

L
 
#248
It's hard to convey intent via the internet, when many words or phrases can be interpretted in a number of different ways. What I recall is that people said, in essence, "if you don't like it, don't buy it." Or, "if you feel it is not worth the asking price, then don't pay it." As I read this, I don't think that anyone is trying to reflect upon any given person's ability to pay a given price. We don't know what someone can or can't afford, and I think that this type of information is entirely irrelevant to a discussion of the merits/aspects/qualities of a given piece of gear. So, hopefully no one was trying to make any economically disparaging comments. At least I didn't read any of the posts as such.

As for "not getting it", I think that the tone was more "not falling in love with the sound of a given piece of gear", and not trying to imply that someone isn't an experienced player or isn't capable of grasping what's good and what isn't. Because you are right when you say that we all have our own likes and dislikes, so it's foolish for anyone to say that someone else "doesn't get it" because they don't like the same thing(s). To be honest, I felt like I was getting a lot of pressure to "conform, and declare this to be the voice of God!" on the Schroeder thread. I have heard Jorg's cabs, and it is my opinion that they are not for me. I'm sure that many other players will love them, but my personal preferences lie elsewhere. Similarly, it may be that once you get a chance to hear the SA200, you may not like it either (or you may like it, but feel that it is not worth the asking price). Neither I, nor anyone else can (or should) try to make you feel otherwise (or to make me feel otherwise concerning Schroeders).

I apologize if I have been coming across as trying to pressure you (or anyone else) to adopt my personal preferences when it comes to gear. That is not my intention. I'm just trying to share knowledge about bass gear in general, and the SA200 in particular. And if I tend to gush about it, that's because I like it. Everyone else is on their own to form their own opinion.

Can we all agree to "live and let live" and move on, here?

Tom.
 
#249
I actually was/am very interested in what the the SA200 sounds like, and was very happy to see this thread begin. Thanks tombowlus for your review. I would like to try out some Sadowsky basses/amps someday, but right now it is unpractical for my finances. Perhaps later in life...

Now, as far as the unhappy campers on both side - relax. It's all just stuff. It ain't faith, hope, love, family, friends, or anything of eternal value... Just musical gear. Just tools.
Regardless of whether you can afford it or not, think its worth it or not, or dont care - its just stuff. (Maybe incredibly cool stuff... but thats beside the point.) No need to freak out, overreact, insult, or be insulted.

Love Sadowsky products? Get one if you can afford it, and enjoy it.
Hate Sadowsky products? Leave em alone. Don't buy them, or endorse them to others.
Easy as that.

Peace be with you all (hopefully soon)

 
#250
tombowlus said:
I apologize if I have been coming across as trying to pressure you (or anyone else) to adopt my personal preferences when it comes to gear.
Click to expand...

gimme a break... you alone have "pressured" hundreds of us into buying all kinds of gear... you are truly the instigator of all that is evil as it pertains to G.A.S..

P.S. please re-read the prior statement with the intended sarcasm and lightheartedness it was written with. !!:D

tombowlus said:
Can we all agree to "live and let live" and move on, here?
Click to expand...

Gee I sure hope so...

Tom I know you are busy... and seemingly EVERYONE is asking for comparisons between this Sadowsky amp and other amps (Like your V8)... I just wanted to add my name to the list of those that are waiting!!!:cool:
 
#253
Larry Kaye said:
Nino..first...On the Schroeder megathread, there have been several guys, Including Tom Bowlus, correct Tom?, who have either said the Schroe's are not for them or have explained in more depth what it specifically was that caused their negative opinion.

I'm not saying everyone's perfect, but the guys on that thread including me, went outta our way to find out about the type of music they do, what other instruments and amplification were in the band, what bass, head, effects the poster was using, how they set the cabinet up (on it's side or horizontal) even what strings, guitar and speaker cords they used, and actually made suggestions like did you try eq'ing different, or turning the enhance knob off on your Eden head or whatever. drool? or if you can't afford it whatever comment follows.

I personally encouraged many of the posters there to tell us about any negatives or problems they may be having. I don't assume the product is perfect and works for everyone in every occasion, and I can't assume that everyone feels Sadowsky products are the cat's meow either.

Nino....The reason that I'm constantly (maybe not that often) picking on Sadowsky has NEVER EVER BEEN BECAUSE OF QUALITY and I truly believe that the SA200 is of the highest quality one can expect from a total highest reputation outsourcing.

However, I'm still waiting for some "real world" objective reasons from either of you or the other Sadowsky proponents about what makes this head so much more expensive than a Mesa 400+ or Ampeg SVTCL for instance. Forget the Traynor YBA200...it's a different breeda cat.

Regarding flaming Tom, I'm being told I don't get it? Get what? I've been playing bass for 40 years and have an additional 10 years on guitar and piano. What is it I don't get here? Is it that I don't understand the subjective opinions or observations of others as they don't understand mine? Yep, you're right. If that's the case, I could easily say that you guys don't get it either, but I go farther, I say you're entitled to your opinions, subjective or not and I am entitled to mine and to question your answers...but the bottom line is unless the area is quantitative, there is no right and wrong. It's all a matter of opinion. What's not is the price comparing features and benefits to features and benefits in a factual way.

Flaming, my opinion is of lesser respectability or reliability by being told if you can't afford it don't buy it, How does anyone there know what I can afford or not and what has that got to do with the validity of what I say or with my knowledge level of bass amplification or bass playing in general. Or..if I don't have any real interest in buying it, I'm being told not to post, or being told to shut up and drool? Why is it automatically ASSUMED that if someone questions the pricing of a Sadowsky product, "you're of a lesser financial status unable to afford one, and are therefore jealous or whatever.." Or if some of us don't hear the Sadowsky mystique in tone, we must be tone deaf or again, we can afford one?

It's all subjective horsemanure. It's all conjecture and assumption, marketing hype not backed up by any real facts or knowledge of facts. So when I obsess about the value, you know why....it's not explainable logically or at least, it hasn't been attempted. The only thing that is logical is that I'm allowed to post, question, comment until I break the rules...or get put on probation or are told to limit which threads I can post on, temporarily or permanently which I will do if ordered to by the powers to be.

In the meantime I only drool in my sleep Munji and my dreams are not of Sadowsky's SA200 or basses dancing around like little sugarplums. I dream of Audi R6 or Volvo R5 wagons and doing the hot MILF driving one. Yes Tom, I'm a station wagon (and graphic EQ) addict, with no GAS in these areas at the moment.

L
Click to expand...

This has the be the longest stretch of PMS I have ever seen.

We get it, you don't like it.
 
#256
It's unethical for someone to monopolize, say, a water supply, and then sell that necessity at unreasonable profit. Roger Sadowsky has no monopoly on tube amps, or basses for that matter! If his products were outrageously priced, he would lose to the competition.


I'm a Sadowsky owner, but not defending Roger because of that. Sure, my P5 was expensive... but no more so than the street price of the MTD 535 I bought used, and of course some boutiques are WAY more expensive than Sadowsky.

Also, I'm the first to say that the Lull P5 is a better bargain than the Sadowsky P5. They are both excellent instruments, and the Lull is less expensive. However the fact is that they are not identical, and for various reasons I have chosen Sadowsky over Lull, despite the significant jump in cost. Others here choose Lull... and heck, some here who can afford Sadowsky still go with production Fender. Which of us is correct? All of us! Just because Brand X is "worth it" to Person Y, doesn't mean it should be to anyone else. We all get to decide for ourselves.



P.S. I'm grateful to Tom for all of his comments here @Talkbass. He is as unbiased as anyone here, clearly stating differences between facts and personal opinion. His goal is to provide information, not sell product. I don't believe anyone has said or implied otherwise, I'm just giving holiday thanks!
 
#257
I am not patronizing here but I too, believe it or not, am grateful that other people here have either the resources or the availability to try stuff out and / or buy stuff and share their experiences, like Tom B does.

I personally always tried to be helpful on the Schroeder thread and there have been several entries that were not the most positive. I certainly was not one of the participants in that Megathread to question Tom's preference and opinion that the tone wasn't for himn...not trying to defend myself...just letting the Sadowskyite's know I'm not the one pressuring Tom to change his mind.

So, fine. we go on from here. Sorry if my ramblings or PMS, I'm not a woman by the way.....oooops...sorry, I said I would stop.

Lkaye
 
#258
SMASH said:
What I'm curious about, admittedly just on a discussion level since I'm not a tube amp guy for bass, is how can you cut through a dense mix or boomy room if you needed to with no EQing on the amp between 80 Hz (Bass) and 800 Hz (Mid). I find all my cutting through is done at the 250-400 Hz area. Add that Sadowsky basses have no mids control (no problem there IMO as far as a bass goes), isn't there a potential problem there overall if pairing the amp with a Sadowsky bass or any bass that is lacking in those key mids? Or is the amp voiced heavy in that range naturally? :confused:
Click to expand...

I know I am going to open a giant can of worms here-----
Obviously, one of the things I get a great deal of feedback on is how well Sadowsky basses cut through either live or in the mix. I have had top pros I have known for years come see me to say "what is it about your basses that make them cut through so well". So I just want to share some of my thoughts in light of the above post. I won't have the time to engage in a lot of replies.

My main thesis is that boosting mids in the 250-400Hz is exactly what you DO NOT want to do. First of all, the Sadowsky onboard preamp boosts bass centered at 40Hz and treble centered at 4KHz. The point where the two bell curves do NOT overlap is at 300Hz. So, if you are boosting the treble and bass controls at all, you are attenuating the mids at 300Hz by default!. The way to increase mids on a Sadowsky is to use the preamp a minimal amount. In addition, my humcancelling J-bass pickups are a bit scooped in the mids, so you can also fill out the mids by using single coils. One of the reasons I have stayed committed to a 2 band EQ is that I think you have much more opportunity to ruin your tone with a midrange boost than you have opportunity to improve it.

Regarding boosting mids in the 250-400Hz range----I have a theory that increasing these mids probably make the bass sound better to YOU on stage, but out in the house or in the mix, all they do is make you sound muddy. And I always have to ask, anytime I hear someone say how they EQ their bass to cut through better, is "how can you possible know what you sound like out in the house??" Unless you have a cohort, talking to you on a walkie talkie, when you are playing to a full house, you have no way of knowing what you sound like out there. So I come back to my point that you are really EQ-ing to how you like to sound through your amp or monitor and unfortunately, my experience has taught me that there is almost an inverse relationship to that and how you actually sound out in the house.

I know I could increase my "market share" by offering a 3 band EQ. I understand a lot of you like a 3 band. It is a decision I still struggle with. But I am convinced that a lot of the success of the Sadowsky tone has to do with that midrange attenuation centered at 300Hz. This is based solely on the feedback I receive from working bassists and my own experience with listening to a variety of basses in a live situation.

This is just my personal opinion, and, like ********, we all have them :-).

Roger
 
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#260
Sadowsky said:
I know I am going to open a giant can of worms here-----
Obviously, one of the things I get a great deal of feedback on is how well Sadowsky basses cut through either live or in the mix. I have had top pros I have known for years come see me to say "what is it about your basses that make them cut through so well". So I just want to share some of my thoughts in light of the above post. I won't have the time to engage in a lot of replies.

My main thesis is that boosting mids in the 250-400Hz is exactly what you DO NOT want to do. First of all, the Sadowsky onboard preamp boosts bass centered at 40Hz and treble centered at 4KHz. The point where the two bell curves do NOT overlap is at 300Hz. So, if you are boosting the treble and bass controls at all, you are attenuating the mids at 300Hz by default!. The way to increase mids on a Sadowsky is to use the preamp a minimal amount. In addition, my humcancelling J-bass pickups are a bit scooped in the mids, so you can also fill out the mids by using single coils. One of the reasons I have stayed committed to a 2 band EQ is that I think you have much more opportunity to ruin your tone with a midrange boost than you have opportunity to improve it.

Regarding boosting mids in the 250-400Hz range----I have a theory that increasing these mids probably make the bass sound better to YOU on stage, but out in the house or in the mix, all they do is make you sound muddy. And I always have to ask, anytime I hear someone say how they EQ their bass to cut through better, is "how can you possible know what you sound like out in the house??" Unless you have a cohort, talking to you on a walkie talkie, when you are playing to a full house, you have no way of knowing what you sound like out there. So I come back to my point that you are really EQ-ing to how you like to sound through your amp or monitor and unfortunately, my experience has taught me that there is almost an inverse relationship to that and how you actually sound out in the house.

I know I could increase my "market share" by offering a 3 band EQ. I understand a lot of you like a 3 band. It is a decision I still struggle with. But I am convinced that a lot of the success of the Sadowsky tone has to do with that midrange attenuation centered at 300Hz. This is based solely on the feedback I receive from working bassists and my own experience with listening to a variety of basses in a live situation.

This is just my personal opinion, and, like ********, we all have them :-).

Roger
Click to expand...

Roger, I am sure it has been said before, but I'd just like to thank you for taking your time to post and interact here with both your fans, and "skeptics".....it shows a lot of care to take the time to respond on a personal level, and I wish more companies had the nads to do so, like to few do.
 

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