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The Eagle Has Landed!!! Sadowsky All-Tube Head!!!
- Thread starter tombowlus
- Start date
bikeplate said:
Ditto, Biker.
This should not even be an issue. If you don't have the money for it, don't buy it, and don't be jealous someone else can.
Scott
Hrothgar said:
And don't assume people are jealous just because they say the price is nuts. I could afford it and i STILL think the price is nuts. That also doesn't mean buying it is out of the question
vision
It's all about the groove!
- Feb 25, 2005
- 3,988
- 618
- 47
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: MTD Basses, La Bella Strings, and 64 Audio IEMs
Fretless5verfan said:
I still don't get the "immorral" thing with this...if a grocery store is the only source of food in an area, and they double their prices to make more off of people, then you could call that "immorral". But if you have an upscale restaurant in an area with MANY other food options, and it costs twice as much to get a meal there vs. anywhere else, they aren't being immorral, they are simply charging whatever the market allows for them to have a good profit margin. It isn't like Sadowsky is "depriving" bassplayers who can't afford the pricetag...noone HAS to have an SA200 - there are many other options for them at a lower pricetag. But if he has enough interest in his product that he can sell the amps he produces at that price, then more power to him!
You still fail to see my point. I'm not saying that Roger is Immoral. I'm talking about the HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION in my original post. There is still a lack of ethical focus possible in the boutique world, THAT is my point.
Yea you're right, no one NEEDS to have an SA200, but if Roger was really concerned about delivering his top notch gear to alot of players to make thier experience with music more satisfying, he'd price it at a point where he makes a good amount of money, but also at a point where the largest amount of people could afford it. And honestly i think that's what he's doing. If he wanted to he could've easily charged 3600+ for it. Why didn't he?
Anyway that's my point....and now back to talking about how good the SA200 sounds
Yea you're right, no one NEEDS to have an SA200, but if Roger was really concerned about delivering his top notch gear to alot of players to make thier experience with music more satisfying, he'd price it at a point where he makes a good amount of money, but also at a point where the largest amount of people could afford it. And honestly i think that's what he's doing. If he wanted to he could've easily charged 3600+ for it. Why didn't he?
Anyway that's my point....and now back to talking about how good the SA200 sounds
HI
Exactly. Always some guy who's gotta say something costs too much. Everything costs too much. Everything should be free? This is the USA. Get over it. Move if you're gonna cry. LOL
Rob
Exactly. Always some guy who's gotta say something costs too much. Everything costs too much. Everything should be free? This is the USA. Get over it. Move if you're gonna cry. LOL
Rob
Wow, 6 pages and it hasn't been closed yet!! LOL! I have avoided getting in the middle of this one because once I do they usually get closed! I must admit, it is hard not to though.....
I am gonna throw my hat in the ring and let it fall where it may...
I have a good idea of what it actually costs to build an amp like this one and I guess that when you consider that he will probably count his sales in the dozens per year and not in the hundreds or thousands you have to imagine that he is not gonna accept a 5% margin of profit or even double or triple that or there would not be a lot of incentive to build them. The transformers in the thing probably COST him about $700 or so apiece not to mention the what appears to be meticulous attention to detail and the fact that as far as I know these are hand made, it is not going to be a mass sale item. Whenever you have a limited customer base you are going to have to have a higher per unit price.
The buyer should (and does) decide whether the asking price is worth the charge of admission and pays it or doesn't. Economics 101 is still the only obvious answer here. As far as the suggestion that this is somehow unethical or immoral because a manufacturer (ANY MANUFACTURER OF ANY PRODUCT HERE) won't sell their product as cheap as possible so that the "less fortunate" (I am not sure how else to politically correctly paraphrase here but I welcome any suggestion and apologize for any offense) can buy them is indeed "crap" to me as well. If somebody feels sorry for me for believing that then so be it.
The bottom line here is that Roger did bring out the Metro line so that more people could afford them and he made sure that they are built to the same standard and with the same attention to detail that a NYC gets is commendable and appreciated by me and a lot of other people. Is it something he "had" to do? Certainly not, I have had both Metros and NYCs and my MV5 is my main player now and yes, I can afford a NYC and have had them too, but so what? I don't buy "because" of price. I buy because of service and the value of the product I am buying. I have always gotten exceptional service in a world of mediocrity from Roger, his staff, and his products. Sadowsky is one of the VERY few places I leave a credit card number on file and just pick up the phone and order what I want and they know to bill it to that card and they always ship it out straight away. I have never had any problem with them and don't expect to.
Roger does not pay me a cent to state my opinions or give advice to potential buyers and I pay full price for every product of his I buy. I own his basses, use his strings exclusively, and have bought 2 outboard preamps. I have also sent a bass in and had them add PUPS and an onboard preamp and the job was perfect. That is what you pay for when it has his name on it. I promise you that when there is ever a problem (not very often) he will stand behind his products even if it is something beyond his control and that he obviously did not do. I also have gotten the same level of attention and service from Dave Funk at Thunderfunk, Mark Wright at Accugroove and Jim Bergantino at Bergantino just to name a few.
These are all people who are charging a premium for their respective products and I think you will find that their customer base is as loyal to them (for the very same reasons) as we are to Sadowsky. While I understand that someone else would not pay what I do for some of the things I buy, I would never start or get involved in a thread and say to someone else why would you pay that price for that product or to take the opposite stand of the one here and say to people who buy less expensive products "why buy that cheap product?" that is cheaply made crap and it sucks. If it is a good value to the buyer it does not matter the price they pay.
If you would not pay someone's asking price, don't. If you feel that you have to whine about what someone else pays for what they buy, start your own thread about it. Heck I might even come over and agree with you. I am not a "rich" person. I am a working Pro in this business and I appreciate all the help I can get in helping me to try gear that I may have an interest in. I have the utmost respect for tombowlus (and I admire his tenacity in trying to buy it all...LOL! ) joker is an honest, working pro in a business full of people of "questionable" character to say the least. I for one appreciate both the time and the dedication that they have given to this site and I find their contibutions invaluable when I am considering gear. I would like to think that there are others here who will take them at face value and can get an exceptional "education" in gear and will find what they have to offer worth the read.
I don't think tombowlus or joker either one bought this piece of gear because of any "elitist" ideal. I think both are driven by the fact that they are familiar with the work that our mutual friend Mr. Sadowsky is capable of and have a genuine curiosity to experience most anything that Roger would be satisfied enough with to put his name on. If you don't know the man or his work, that is OK. If you have experienced his work and are less than thrilled, that is OK to. Some of us appreciate the effort and are willing to take a chance that it is probably something that is worth buying if you have the means to do so. That is not a stab at the "less fortunate" that is a stab at the naysayers who feel the need to particiapte in these types of threads with the sole purpose of starting exactly what is going on now.
We know you wouldn't pay the price...WE DON'T CARE. We also know you don't get it...WE DON'T CARE....We also know that you never will no matter how many times we say the same things over and over....WE DON'T CARE.....Go start your own Threads and discuss your disgust there......please!
We prefer not to have the dissention in these threads. I don't understand why the same people come on Sadowsky threads and feel that they have to push their "agenda". I don't know a single person who has ever gone in a Fender thread or an Ibanez thread (or pick your builder) and dissed them in favor of a Sadowsky and caused the kind of mess that goes on in nearly every Sadowsky thread I have ever seen.....Why do you guys feel the need to do it here....Just avoid Sadowsky threads and you will be fine....
So When do I get to sample one of these fine new amps?
Now that I have thrown in my hat it is just a matter of time before this one gets closed you wait and see.....
You know I love you guys!!!
Much love to all the respectful, open minded people out there, wish there were a few more of you that participate here. Thanks for all the info you guys share, I appreciate it!!
It is written that when Jesus was going to the cross that he said "Forgive them father for they know not what they do" maybe you don't realize what you are doing here....If that is the case we forgive you......
God Bless and Peace to all, Lets go play some music!!
T
I am gonna throw my hat in the ring and let it fall where it may...
I have a good idea of what it actually costs to build an amp like this one and I guess that when you consider that he will probably count his sales in the dozens per year and not in the hundreds or thousands you have to imagine that he is not gonna accept a 5% margin of profit or even double or triple that or there would not be a lot of incentive to build them. The transformers in the thing probably COST him about $700 or so apiece not to mention the what appears to be meticulous attention to detail and the fact that as far as I know these are hand made, it is not going to be a mass sale item. Whenever you have a limited customer base you are going to have to have a higher per unit price.
The buyer should (and does) decide whether the asking price is worth the charge of admission and pays it or doesn't. Economics 101 is still the only obvious answer here. As far as the suggestion that this is somehow unethical or immoral because a manufacturer (ANY MANUFACTURER OF ANY PRODUCT HERE) won't sell their product as cheap as possible so that the "less fortunate" (I am not sure how else to politically correctly paraphrase here but I welcome any suggestion and apologize for any offense) can buy them is indeed "crap" to me as well. If somebody feels sorry for me for believing that then so be it.
The bottom line here is that Roger did bring out the Metro line so that more people could afford them and he made sure that they are built to the same standard and with the same attention to detail that a NYC gets is commendable and appreciated by me and a lot of other people. Is it something he "had" to do? Certainly not, I have had both Metros and NYCs and my MV5 is my main player now and yes, I can afford a NYC and have had them too, but so what? I don't buy "because" of price. I buy because of service and the value of the product I am buying. I have always gotten exceptional service in a world of mediocrity from Roger, his staff, and his products. Sadowsky is one of the VERY few places I leave a credit card number on file and just pick up the phone and order what I want and they know to bill it to that card and they always ship it out straight away. I have never had any problem with them and don't expect to.
Roger does not pay me a cent to state my opinions or give advice to potential buyers and I pay full price for every product of his I buy. I own his basses, use his strings exclusively, and have bought 2 outboard preamps. I have also sent a bass in and had them add PUPS and an onboard preamp and the job was perfect. That is what you pay for when it has his name on it. I promise you that when there is ever a problem (not very often) he will stand behind his products even if it is something beyond his control and that he obviously did not do. I also have gotten the same level of attention and service from Dave Funk at Thunderfunk, Mark Wright at Accugroove and Jim Bergantino at Bergantino just to name a few.
These are all people who are charging a premium for their respective products and I think you will find that their customer base is as loyal to them (for the very same reasons) as we are to Sadowsky. While I understand that someone else would not pay what I do for some of the things I buy, I would never start or get involved in a thread and say to someone else why would you pay that price for that product or to take the opposite stand of the one here and say to people who buy less expensive products "why buy that cheap product?" that is cheaply made crap and it sucks. If it is a good value to the buyer it does not matter the price they pay.
If you would not pay someone's asking price, don't. If you feel that you have to whine about what someone else pays for what they buy, start your own thread about it. Heck I might even come over and agree with you.
I am not a "rich" person. I am a working Pro in this business and I appreciate all the help I can get in helping me to try gear that I may have an interest in. I have the utmost respect for tombowlus (and I admire his tenacity in trying to buy it all...LOL! ) joker is an honest, working pro in a business full of people of "questionable" character to say the least. I for one appreciate both the time and the dedication that they have given to this site and I find their contibutions invaluable when I am considering gear. I would like to think that there are others here who will take them at face value and can get an exceptional "education" in gear and will find what they have to offer worth the read.I don't think tombowlus or joker either one bought this piece of gear because of any "elitist" ideal. I think both are driven by the fact that they are familiar with the work that our mutual friend Mr. Sadowsky is capable of and have a genuine curiosity to experience most anything that Roger would be satisfied enough with to put his name on. If you don't know the man or his work, that is OK. If you have experienced his work and are less than thrilled, that is OK to. Some of us appreciate the effort and are willing to take a chance that it is probably something that is worth buying if you have the means to do so. That is not a stab at the "less fortunate" that is a stab at the naysayers who feel the need to particiapte in these types of threads with the sole purpose of starting exactly what is going on now.
We know you wouldn't pay the price...WE DON'T CARE. We also know you don't get it...WE DON'T CARE....We also know that you never will no matter how many times we say the same things over and over....WE DON'T CARE.....Go start your own Threads and discuss your disgust there......please!
We prefer not to have the dissention in these threads. I don't understand why the same people come on Sadowsky threads and feel that they have to push their "agenda". I don't know a single person who has ever gone in a Fender thread or an Ibanez thread (or pick your builder) and dissed them in favor of a Sadowsky and caused the kind of mess that goes on in nearly every Sadowsky thread I have ever seen.....Why do you guys feel the need to do it here....Just avoid Sadowsky threads and you will be fine.... So When do I get to sample one of these fine new amps?
Now that I have thrown in my hat it is just a matter of time before this one gets closed you wait and see.....
You know I love you guys!!!Much love to all the respectful, open minded people out there, wish there were a few more of you that participate here. Thanks for all the info you guys share, I appreciate it!!
It is written that when Jesus was going to the cross that he said "Forgive them father for they know not what they do" maybe you don't realize what you are doing here....If that is the case we forgive you......
God Bless and Peace to all, Lets go play some music!!
T
tommixx said:Wow, 6 pages and it hasn't been closed yet!! LOL! I have avoided getting in the middle of this one because once I do they usually get closed! I must admit, it is hard not to though.....
I am gonna throw my hat in the ring and let it fall where it may...
I have a good idea of what it actually costs to build an amp like this one and I guess that when you consider that he will probably count his sales in the dozens per year and not in the hundreds or thousands you have to imagine that he is not gonna accept a 5% margin of profit or even double or triple that or there would not be a lot of incentive to build them. The transformers in the thing probably COST him about $700 or so apiece not to mention the what appears to be meticulous attention to detail and the fact that as far as I know these are hand made, it is not going to be a mass sale item. Whenever you have a limited customer base you are going to have to have a higher per unit price.
The buyer should (and does) decide whether the asking price is worth the charge of admission and pays it or doesn't. Economics 101 is still the only obvious answer here. As far as the suggestion that this is somehow unethical or immoral because a manufacturer (ANY MANUFACTURER OF ANY PRODUCT HERE) won't sell their product as cheap as possible so that the "less fortunate" (I am not sure how else to politically correctly paraphrase here but I welcome any suggestion and apologize for any offense) can buy them is indeed "crap" to me as well. If somebody feels sorry for me for believing that then so be it.
The bottom line here is that Roger did bring out the Metro line so that more people could afford them and he made sure that they are built to the same standard and with the same attention to detail that a NYC gets is commendable and appreciated by me and a lot of other people. Is it something he "had" to do? Certainly not, I have had both Metros and NYCs and my MV5 is my main player now and yes, I can afford a NYC and have had them too, but so what? I don't buy "because" of price. I buy because of service and the value of the product I am buying. I have always gotten exceptional service in a world of mediocrity from Roger, his staff, and his products. Sadowsky is one of the VERY few places I leave a credit card number on file and just pick up the phone and order what I want and they know to bill it to that card and they always ship it out straight away. I have never had any problem with them and don't expect to.
Roger does not pay me a cent to state my opinions or give advice to potential buyers and I pay full price for every product of his I buy. I own his basses, use his strings exclusively, and have bought 2 outboard preamps. I have also sent a bass in and had them add PUPS and an onboard preamp and the job was perfect. That is what you pay for when it has his name on it. I promise you that when there is ever a problem (not very often) he will stand behind his products even if it is something beyond his control and that he obviously did not do. I also have gotten the same level of attention and service from Dave Funk at Thunderfunk, Mark Wright at Accugroove and Jim Bergantino at Bergantino just to name a few.
These are all people who are charging a premium for their respective products and I think you will find that their customer base is as loyal to them (for the very same reasons) as we are to Sadowsky. While I understand that someone else would not pay what I do for some of the things I buy, I would never start or get involved in a thread and say to someone else why would you pay that price for that product or to take the opposite stand of the one here and say to people who buy less expensive products "why buy that cheap product?" that is cheaply made crap and it sucks. If it is a good value to the buyer it does not matter the price they pay.
If you would not pay someone's asking price, don't. If you feel that you have to whine about what someone else pays for what they buy, start your own thread about it. Heck I might even come over and agree with you.
I don't think tombowlus or joker either one bought this piece of gear because of any "elitist" ideal. I think both are driven by the fact that they are familiar with the work that our mutual friend Mr. Sadowsky is capable of and have a genuine curiosity to experience most anything that Roger would be satisfied enough with to put his name on. If you don't know the man or his work, that is OK. If you have experienced his work and are less than thrilled, that is OK to. Some of us appreciate the effort and are willing to take a chance that it is probably something that is worth buying if you have the means to do so. That is not a stab at the "less fortunate" that is a stab at the naysayers who feel the need to particiapte in these types of threads with the sole purpose of starting exactly what is going on now.
We know you wouldn't pay the price...WE DON'T CARE. We also know you don't get it...WE DON'T CARE....We also know that you never will no matter how many times we say the same things over and over....WE DON'T CARE.....Go start your own Threads and discuss your disgust there......please!
So When do I get to sample one of these fine new amps?
Now that I have thrown in my hat it is just a matter of time before this one gets closed you wait and see.....
Much love to all the respectful, open minded people out there, wish there were a few more of you that participate here. Thanks for all the info you guys share, I appreciate it!!
It is written that when Jesus was going to the cross that he said "Forgive them father for they know not what they do" maybe you don't realize what you are doing here....If that is the case we forgive you......
God Bless and Peace to all, Lets go play some music!!
T
Agreed, he aint getting rich off of theses. Even if he were, who cares? Don't buy one if you don't see the value in it!
My SVT I am rebuilding will have near the new ticket price as one of these by the time it is done. This stuff isn't cheap.
I want to add as little fuel to the flaming that has started here, but please realize as well as many posters can express themselves, there's an equal amount of readers who don't see, understand, or interpret other's posts how they were intended.
1. Whether any of us like it or not, everyone is entitled to their opinion here, positive about it or not and it's our right as posters to say what we feel, think,know. But it's not our right to flame others for what they feel think or know. It it not anyone's right to tell anyone else what they can or can't say except for the monitor.
2. Mr. mixxxer....your points are well taken until what looks like poster/internet rage took over. Please try and relax...even if many of us don't know you and you don't care about what we think, many of us DO CARE that you don't pop an artery over this. We're not worth it!!!!
I'm trying not to take a pity party, social worker, everyone should be able to buy anything attitude. By the same token, I don't personally, again, IMHO, like people who tend to show off/flaunt their looks, money, intelligence, assets, ego, playing ability, technical expertise etc. etc. I prefer understated humility but CAN ACCEPT these other more assertive traits...just don't want to hang with 'em...understand?
This includes, again IMHO, individuals who CONSISTENTLY have no interest or seem to not care about what they are getting for their hard earned dollars. I personally don't respect people who spend just to prove they have it to spend. That's their/your choice and there have purchases I've made where value didn't figure into the decision, but don't expect everyone to agree with you and I don't expect everyone to agree with my attitude.
I'm not going to comment about the price of the SA200 other than to reiterate that I personally can't get over how little value it potentially brings to me. There are others that agree (which surprised me) and others who don't agree. Too
This colloberation between Mr. Sadowsky and Koch is a business/marketing venture aimed at people who prioritize image, name recognition, and exclusivity. There's nothing WRONG with being or having those priorities. But for those to say WE DON"T GET IT when you're saying what in essence is "why should I pay $800 to 1000 for something that I can pay $2800 for an equivalent with a Sadowsky name on it, well you're right. I, we, and many others don't get it. Sorry.
I use Schroeder cabinets...as many people that have read the Schroe megathread here at talkbass.com. there are probably, who knows, 100's or times more bassists who have never heard of 'em. How I describe 'em....their the lightest, cheapest, smallest, loudest, nicest sounding cabinets I've ever played. I find a certain joy, egostroke, pat on the back, call it what you want to say that I don't need to spend $3500 on a bass, $2800 on a head, and $2000 on a cabinet to sound like I have. This is where I feel others DON'T GET IT and while I'm sounding just as good as you, I got enough left over to, well in my case, at least pay my rent for a few months!!!
What we hopefully can agree about is that everyone should be able to buy whatever they choose to, pay whatever they pay, and be able to discuss, agree, defend or criticize their own or others decisions to do so on these open forums, provided that it's done in a non-flaming, non-name calling way, that's alowed by the rules of the forum.
That's the issue here, not that the amp cost what it does and some think it's too much, too little, or just right.
LK
1. Whether any of us like it or not, everyone is entitled to their opinion here, positive about it or not and it's our right as posters to say what we feel, think,know. But it's not our right to flame others for what they feel think or know. It it not anyone's right to tell anyone else what they can or can't say except for the monitor.
2. Mr. mixxxer....your points are well taken until what looks like poster/internet rage took over. Please try and relax...even if many of us don't know you and you don't care about what we think, many of us DO CARE that you don't pop an artery over this. We're not worth it!!!!
I'm trying not to take a pity party, social worker, everyone should be able to buy anything attitude. By the same token, I don't personally, again, IMHO, like people who tend to show off/flaunt their looks, money, intelligence, assets, ego, playing ability, technical expertise etc. etc. I prefer understated humility but CAN ACCEPT these other more assertive traits...just don't want to hang with 'em...understand?
This includes, again IMHO, individuals who CONSISTENTLY have no interest or seem to not care about what they are getting for their hard earned dollars. I personally don't respect people who spend just to prove they have it to spend. That's their/your choice and there have purchases I've made where value didn't figure into the decision, but don't expect everyone to agree with you and I don't expect everyone to agree with my attitude.
I'm not going to comment about the price of the SA200 other than to reiterate that I personally can't get over how little value it potentially brings to me. There are others that agree (which surprised me) and others who don't agree. Too
This colloberation between Mr. Sadowsky and Koch is a business/marketing venture aimed at people who prioritize image, name recognition, and exclusivity. There's nothing WRONG with being or having those priorities. But for those to say WE DON"T GET IT when you're saying what in essence is "why should I pay $800 to 1000 for something that I can pay $2800 for an equivalent with a Sadowsky name on it, well you're right. I, we, and many others don't get it. Sorry.
I use Schroeder cabinets...as many people that have read the Schroe megathread here at talkbass.com. there are probably, who knows, 100's or times more bassists who have never heard of 'em. How I describe 'em....their the lightest, cheapest, smallest, loudest, nicest sounding cabinets I've ever played. I find a certain joy, egostroke, pat on the back, call it what you want to say that I don't need to spend $3500 on a bass, $2800 on a head, and $2000 on a cabinet to sound like I have. This is where I feel others DON'T GET IT and while I'm sounding just as good as you, I got enough left over to, well in my case, at least pay my rent for a few months!!!
What we hopefully can agree about is that everyone should be able to buy whatever they choose to, pay whatever they pay, and be able to discuss, agree, defend or criticize their own or others decisions to do so on these open forums, provided that it's done in a non-flaming, non-name calling way, that's alowed by the rules of the forum.
That's the issue here, not that the amp cost what it does and some think it's too much, too little, or just right.
LK
You have a very interesting post that deserves response on many levels, but I'll start with one:
Where can I get an equivalent amplifier, as you imply I can, for $800 to $1000?
You use an AI Focus, a nice amp (I own a Clarus). Are you suggesting that our AIs sound like an SA200? I'm not asking whether an AI sounds as good as the Sadowsky, because that's a meaningless statement without the context of what voice a particular bassplayer is trying to speak with. The question is achieving a particular tone that a bassplayer is trying to achieve. You might get the sound in your head playing through a Fender Bassman 100, and that's great. Others may be looking for a different tone, and if it takes the Sad to get that tone, and if they can afford it, so be it.
I use an Aguilar 750 most of the time at gigs. I didn't buy it because I'm trying to prove how much money I have to spend. I bought it because I have certain power and tone requirements that in my opinion only the 750 could meet. Presumably, you don't have the same requirements, and that's fine. But it's not an answer to say that amplifiers exist of reasonable power and quality for $800. They don't sound like I want to sound.
Your valid comment could well be that you have your tone with a head that happens to cost $800. That's great, and if so, you would indeed be foolish to spend almost $3000 for an amp. I have different tone requirements. Note I said different, not better-I'm not here to judge that in any way. Why should you be negative that a product exists, to the detriment of nothing, that fulfills other players' desires to achieve their voices?
Where can I get an equivalent amplifier, as you imply I can, for $800 to $1000?
You use an AI Focus, a nice amp (I own a Clarus). Are you suggesting that our AIs sound like an SA200? I'm not asking whether an AI sounds as good as the Sadowsky, because that's a meaningless statement without the context of what voice a particular bassplayer is trying to speak with. The question is achieving a particular tone that a bassplayer is trying to achieve. You might get the sound in your head playing through a Fender Bassman 100, and that's great. Others may be looking for a different tone, and if it takes the Sad to get that tone, and if they can afford it, so be it.
I use an Aguilar 750 most of the time at gigs. I didn't buy it because I'm trying to prove how much money I have to spend. I bought it because I have certain power and tone requirements that in my opinion only the 750 could meet. Presumably, you don't have the same requirements, and that's fine. But it's not an answer to say that amplifiers exist of reasonable power and quality for $800. They don't sound like I want to sound.
Your valid comment could well be that you have your tone with a head that happens to cost $800. That's great, and if so, you would indeed be foolish to spend almost $3000 for an amp. I have different tone requirements. Note I said different, not better-I'm not here to judge that in any way. Why should you be negative that a product exists, to the detriment of nothing, that fulfills other players' desires to achieve their voices?
Just a quick refresher here for those not hip to what business is about. The primary purpose of any commercial enterprise is to increase the wealth of its shareholders. That may be many thousands of shareholders in a publicly held company, or a single shareholder in a sole proprietorship.
OK, so we got that going, now it is incumbent on the management, particularly senior management, to maximize the return on investment for the shareholders. That means assessing the market and setting prices as high as possible, while maintaining sufficiently high sales to produce maximum profitability. If they raise prices too high, sales will drop, as will profitability. It may be necessary to lower prices which, in turn, could restore sales to a level that profitability will rise, albeit at a lower margin (ideally the increase in sales will counter the reduced margin).
Conversely, if sales increase, possibly even higher than the company's production capability, it's time to raise prices. It doesn't matter if production costs have risen or not. Companies have no moral compulsion to keep prices low just to do you a favor. There are just going to be some things in life you can't afford. It may be a Sadowsky or a Fodera. It may be that Mercedes McClaren SLR I covet.
The solution for you is to get yourself educated in a field that pays well, get paid well, and buy the expensive stuff if you want it. If you can't afford it, just shut up and drool.
Some of you remind me of the two guys who grew watermelons. It cost them 7 cents a pound to grow them, and they were selling them for 5 cents a pound at the farmers' market. They had a pickup truck they used to haul the watermelons to market, and they'd fill the whole thing up every weekend, but still couldn't turn a profit. After deep analysis of their predicament, they realized they needed to get a bigger truck.
OK, so we got that going, now it is incumbent on the management, particularly senior management, to maximize the return on investment for the shareholders. That means assessing the market and setting prices as high as possible, while maintaining sufficiently high sales to produce maximum profitability. If they raise prices too high, sales will drop, as will profitability. It may be necessary to lower prices which, in turn, could restore sales to a level that profitability will rise, albeit at a lower margin (ideally the increase in sales will counter the reduced margin).
Conversely, if sales increase, possibly even higher than the company's production capability, it's time to raise prices. It doesn't matter if production costs have risen or not. Companies have no moral compulsion to keep prices low just to do you a favor. There are just going to be some things in life you can't afford. It may be a Sadowsky or a Fodera. It may be that Mercedes McClaren SLR I covet.
The solution for you is to get yourself educated in a field that pays well, get paid well, and buy the expensive stuff if you want it. If you can't afford it, just shut up and drool.
Some of you remind me of the two guys who grew watermelons. It cost them 7 cents a pound to grow them, and they were selling them for 5 cents a pound at the farmers' market. They had a pickup truck they used to haul the watermelons to market, and they'd fill the whole thing up every weekend, but still couldn't turn a profit. After deep analysis of their predicament, they realized they needed to get a bigger truck.
Larry, no offense man but your posts kinda make my head hurt. I think I understand where you are coming from, but I think the way you are presenting your opinion is just as "offensive" to everybody as you seem to find the "Not everybody will get it" phrasing.
You keep going back to the argument of:
"What we hopefully can agree about is that everyone should be able to buy whatever they choose to, pay whatever they pay, and be able to discuss, agree, defend or criticize their own or others decisions to do so on these open forums, provided that it's done in a non-flaming, non-name calling way, that's alowed by the rules of the forum."
But it really seems like you can't get over the fact that people see the SA200 and think it is ideal for them even at that price. I don't think anybody here is calling this amp a bargain or saying that nothing can possibly compete with it, but it has value to certain people.
For what its worth I think its overpriced and I wouldn't buy one if I had the money, but I absolutely see why certain people would want to buy one even at that price. Heck my instruments of choice are $1200 toilet seats, but I love them and they work for me.
You keep going back to the argument of:
"What we hopefully can agree about is that everyone should be able to buy whatever they choose to, pay whatever they pay, and be able to discuss, agree, defend or criticize their own or others decisions to do so on these open forums, provided that it's done in a non-flaming, non-name calling way, that's alowed by the rules of the forum."
But it really seems like you can't get over the fact that people see the SA200 and think it is ideal for them even at that price. I don't think anybody here is calling this amp a bargain or saying that nothing can possibly compete with it, but it has value to certain people.
For what its worth I think its overpriced and I wouldn't buy one if I had the money, but I absolutely see why certain people would want to buy one even at that price. Heck my instruments of choice are $1200 toilet seats, but I love them and they work for me.
I don't think anyone needs to come in here and start explaining to people how much it costs to buy parts for amps. The maker of this amp has not told anyone the cost of the parts, so why start spouting off figures on his behalf? No one is impressed.
-Mike
-Mike
HI
More crap. I dont use Sadowsky stuff for the prestige. I've had maybe two people come up to me the last five years and say "is that a Sadowsky" I play 170 shows a year. Nobody knows, nobody cares. It's not a status thing to me. Looks just like a Fender Jazz. I'm not showing off or flaunting my basses. What total crap!!
Its the best tool I've found to get the job done. It costs what it costs. If I could get another bass that was less coin to do the same or better job, I'd use those instruments. I'm not an idiot. I dont like flushing $ down the toilet.
I've tried the SA200 It smokes. I'd love one. Doesnt really work for me. I play so much, I prefer a light portable combo(EA 800 Combo) Doesnt mean I wouldnt like one. The price? Sure I wish it was cheaper. Sure I wish Roger would give me one. He should, in my opinion. I've spent enough $ there. LOL Just kidding Roger(I know you are readying this LOL)
Thats about it. Think I'll jump in my BWM and cruise chicks with my gold rolex
Rob
More crap. I dont use Sadowsky stuff for the prestige. I've had maybe two people come up to me the last five years and say "is that a Sadowsky" I play 170 shows a year. Nobody knows, nobody cares. It's not a status thing to me. Looks just like a Fender Jazz. I'm not showing off or flaunting my basses. What total crap!!
Its the best tool I've found to get the job done. It costs what it costs. If I could get another bass that was less coin to do the same or better job, I'd use those instruments. I'm not an idiot. I dont like flushing $ down the toilet.
I've tried the SA200 It smokes. I'd love one. Doesnt really work for me. I play so much, I prefer a light portable combo(EA 800 Combo) Doesnt mean I wouldnt like one. The price? Sure I wish it was cheaper. Sure I wish Roger would give me one. He should, in my opinion. I've spent enough $ there. LOL Just kidding Roger(I know you are readying this LOL)
Thats about it. Think I'll jump in my BWM and cruise chicks with my gold rolex
Rob
I agreed with Munji. I'm a businessman too...I own my own business in sickness and in health and I want to make as much as I can within the law and realize that you have to always be conscious of balancing price, value, and service.
....but then Munji, you made the statement about if you can't afford it, shut up and drool. That's not an opinion, it's plain and outright offensive and just inflames the troops who value, well.....value. You know, Mercedes, Lexus's, and, yes Tommy bowlus, even Audi's have recalls. Why, because imperfect humans make and assemble parts of the cars, no matter how much they sell for. Same with bass guitars, heads, and speaker cabinets.
There are pulennteeee of people on these threads that can afford a Fodera, Sadowsky, Mercedes, Lexus, $1,000,000 houses, but don't choose to buy them, just as there are people who do. All the power to those who do or decide to not get anything or something else....it doesn't make those who don't or can't purchase higher end material goods to be void of any opinion or points of discussion about how and why they feel the way they do.
There are several 200-400 watt tube amps available new in the $750 to 1500 range and many more pre-owned in this range...Add an outboard graphic or semiparametric and some people will find a tone that is just as acceptable as the $2500-4000 spread. Good for them. Price by itself doesn't always equal what everyone wants high or low.
I just don't see how this opinion should offend someone. I'm not name calling. I'm challenging the loyalty to a very expensive brand of bass maker and proposed looking into one of the other brands with an extra $100-200 eq investment as an alternative?
It's just my opinion....the same one I and the others are entitled to here.,....to state within the forum rules what you want to, how you want to. Yes, I pipe in several of the threads where some of you think "I don't belong" or "shouldn't" because I don't have a "real" interest in the Sadowsky products other than to challenge the price vs features.
But understand no one person or group has any exclusive rights to this forum, paying members, supporting members or not. To think you do is just a confirmation of the eliteist attitude I perceive many high end buyers have rightly or wrongly. You spend a lotta money, therefore your opinion is more valid or you command more "respect" about anything or everything because you're able to pay the piper? Sorry, that's sheer BS.
Now on to less pleasant things. Regarding the Ag 750 as your weapon of choice, my opinion, not asked for, I understand....GREAT HEAD.
But, I would state the same thing: that with at most a $100-200 outboard eq investment, you likely could get an equally acceptable tone and way enough power with a $750 amp, like a Sunn 1200 S used or Kustom Groove 1200. As you said, not better, not yours sucks and mine's great.
It's like some guys are in denial because you think that you can only get "your tone" with a $3500 bass, or a $2200-2800 head and/or a $2000 cabinet or you're even more "likely" to get your tone if you're spending bigger bucks. I will add categorically, that even if one gets one's tone that's exactly what it is and it's subjective totally. What isn't subjective is how much it costs someone to get what they perceive as "their" tone at least from an equipment point of view. That's a totally definable parameter.
LKaye
....but then Munji, you made the statement about if you can't afford it, shut up and drool. That's not an opinion, it's plain and outright offensive and just inflames the troops who value, well.....value. You know, Mercedes, Lexus's, and, yes Tommy bowlus, even Audi's have recalls. Why, because imperfect humans make and assemble parts of the cars, no matter how much they sell for. Same with bass guitars, heads, and speaker cabinets.
There are pulennteeee of people on these threads that can afford a Fodera, Sadowsky, Mercedes, Lexus, $1,000,000 houses, but don't choose to buy them, just as there are people who do. All the power to those who do or decide to not get anything or something else....it doesn't make those who don't or can't purchase higher end material goods to be void of any opinion or points of discussion about how and why they feel the way they do.
There are several 200-400 watt tube amps available new in the $750 to 1500 range and many more pre-owned in this range...Add an outboard graphic or semiparametric and some people will find a tone that is just as acceptable as the $2500-4000 spread. Good for them. Price by itself doesn't always equal what everyone wants high or low.
I just don't see how this opinion should offend someone. I'm not name calling. I'm challenging the loyalty to a very expensive brand of bass maker and proposed looking into one of the other brands with an extra $100-200 eq investment as an alternative?
It's just my opinion....the same one I and the others are entitled to here.,....to state within the forum rules what you want to, how you want to. Yes, I pipe in several of the threads where some of you think "I don't belong" or "shouldn't" because I don't have a "real" interest in the Sadowsky products other than to challenge the price vs features.
But understand no one person or group has any exclusive rights to this forum, paying members, supporting members or not. To think you do is just a confirmation of the eliteist attitude I perceive many high end buyers have rightly or wrongly. You spend a lotta money, therefore your opinion is more valid or you command more "respect" about anything or everything because you're able to pay the piper? Sorry, that's sheer BS.
Now on to less pleasant things. Regarding the Ag 750 as your weapon of choice, my opinion, not asked for, I understand....GREAT HEAD.
But, I would state the same thing: that with at most a $100-200 outboard eq investment, you likely could get an equally acceptable tone and way enough power with a $750 amp, like a Sunn 1200 S used or Kustom Groove 1200. As you said, not better, not yours sucks and mine's great.
It's like some guys are in denial because you think that you can only get "your tone" with a $3500 bass, or a $2200-2800 head and/or a $2000 cabinet or you're even more "likely" to get your tone if you're spending bigger bucks. I will add categorically, that even if one gets one's tone that's exactly what it is and it's subjective totally. What isn't subjective is how much it costs someone to get what they perceive as "their" tone at least from an equipment point of view. That's a totally definable parameter.
LKaye
MJ5150 said:
First of all I knew I should have kept my mouth shut because no matter how hard I try it seems that I rub some people the wrong way because I disagree with what they are saying. I am sorry that I am pretty blunt and to the point but that is just my nature. Whether you think I should come in here and say anything is totally pointless unless you are a moderator and I have broken some kind of rule. As far as I know, I can participate in any way I see fit as can you. Attacking me is certainly no way to get your point across (whatever it is
) and frankly makes you look kind of silly to suppose you know what impresses anyone else here. Unless you are clairvoyant or something and in that case I apologize you may be right. 
There are a great many other things I could spout off about but I don't think that would be constructive or would contribute anything of any additional value unless you are just trolling and trying to get me to lash out at you which ain't gonna happen. I think if you read my post I was attempting to answer the question of cost to produce this product. I certainly did not do so on anyone's behalf other than my own and my sole intention was to address the issue of actual cost of this amp which was the point of contention. I appreciate your position and your opinon and I would certainly appreciate the same courtesy. Even if I think you have a lot of ba778 trying to tell me what everyone here does or does not want me to say. As I said in my post I apologize in advance for any offense that I knew it would cause. I really mean no disrespect to anyone and my post is not aimed at anyone in particular unlike a couple of replies to my post....I must assume that since I am the only one who discussed the price of parts you must mean me and since I am the only one here with "mixxer" in any part of my handle I will assume that was aimed at me as well.
I am only going to respond once to both of these points and then I will leave it alone....My opinion is obviously my own and though it seems that I have a differing view of the topic at hand it would seem that I am to be singled out and be chastised for it....it is OK I have been through worse. I mentioned the cost of the transformers so that the layman could get an idea of what it costs to make these products considering that is only one of the multitude of costs that go into the final pricing which was what was being debated. Frankly, I did not post the info to "impress" anyone.
Dave Funk and I have had a number of discussions (off the boards) about the real costs that go into some of these products and that simply brought to mind something he relayed to me about the cost of Aguilars transformers after having peaked inside a DB750. I thought it would be of some use to "other" people who are participating here. If you did not like it I have to wonder, why? What exactly was it about me sharing that bit of info with people who might be interested so obviously effasive to you? I was not speaking for Roger or anyone else and have no investment in the argument either way. But to sit by and see someone say that it is not worth the price when it may simply be a case that they don't really know what the true cost is to me is wrong.
I don't see anyone berating the Aguilar DB750 which I think is a fine amp and I am actually considering getting my second one (before they are discontinued for something else) after I lost one in a fire. The BEST price I can find new is about $2100.00 (if anyone knows a better price let me know!!) which is not that much less than Roger's amp and it IS NOT an all tube amp. I think paying another $700.00 or so for an ALL TUBE amp is not that much of stretch. The Demeter 300 watt all tube amp has a retail price of $2799.00 and a street price of $2399.00 and is also a fine amp in its own right. So is the Sadowsky REALLY all that much more expensive (or should he sell his for the same price or something???) or is there some kind of conspiracy to fix the prices of all tube bass amps? I don't know but I would like to think that the pricing structure has something to do with cost per unit to build and the lower demand than traditional SS, Hybrid or Digital amps that are available as well. I would certainly appreciate the chane to debate that here without someone telling me that noone wants to hear it or that they are not impressed.
I know that I am certainly not the only one here who would like to discuss it without hearing a bunch of whining from people who don't think they are worth it.Lets face if it, somebody weren't buying these products why the heck would anyone build them. I am not an elitist, I am a consumer. I buy groceries just like you do and I buy everything else I need just like you do. If you don't want to buy the Heinz Ketchup and prefer the store brand that is fine, I buy the Heinz because to me it tastes better and I am willing to pay the extra $.30 or whatever it is that I have to pay to get it....I buy my music gear beacuse to me it plays or sounds better and sometimes that means that I am goinig to pay more than you for something that I want...If I could find something else comparable to my gear at a lower price I would be an idiot not to pay less. I said it before, I am not rich, I am just a pro that uses this stuff to make my living. My brother in law is a mechanic and has a LOT more INVESTED in his tools than I have in my gear at this point by FAR and everytime something comes out that helps him in his business he just buys it. The cost is irrelevant because he has to have it to do his job properly. Some of us feel the same way about our gear. Just give us a break and let us enjoy our conversations about that gear, that is all I am asking. Can't we all just leave it at that and get along????
I take offense that some people have a tendancy to dismiss a product due to price when they have no clue what it really costs to make it. Frankly, I think a lot of people are put off and "unimpressed" when people come here and berate ANY manufacturer for their pricing, not just Sadowsky either, the same thing is going on over in a Fodera thread and it frankly makes me angry that noone outside of Fodera knows what their overhead and what they must make margin wise to even stay in business. I think Alembics are the most overpriced basses out there. But I have played a number of them and have owned 2 and I have to admit they are very well made and they do what is advertised. I have NEVER gone into an Alembic thread and made that statement just for the sake of trying to illicit a response as seems to be the case here.
I have seen MANY Sadowsky threads closed becasue of this same BS and it gets really old. The Sadowsky fans here just want to be able to share there enthusiasm for what we think are great products. We don't repquire any special "elitist" ideals or special admission, all are welcome and all are certainly welcome to particiapte in any way they see fit. However, where I take exception is when someone feels that they have to belittle the Sadowsky product or call it overpriced or spout off the same old reasons over and over as to why they don't want to buy it. I'll say it again in a different context that it is really not contributing ANYTHING of value to anyone involved in the thread who came here to get info on this product.
Now if you want to come on and say anything helpful or anything that is actually going to contribute anything useful and maybe give specific reasons why it is overpriced or why I should not spend my hard earned money to buy it such as poor craftsmanship on one you played or cheap components in 1 you took apart and actually validate your point of view, I for one would welcome that as I am sure everyone here would. But to come in and essentially troll the thread is very negative and just plain bad Karma as far as I am concerned.
Larry K Posted
2. Mr. mixxxer....your points are well taken until what looks like poster/internet rage took over. Please try and relax...even if many of us don't know you and you don't care about what we think, many of us DO CARE that you don't pop an artery over this. We're not worth it!!!!
I'm trying not to take a pity party, social worker, everyone should be able to buy anything attitude. By the same token, I don't personally, again, IMHO, like people who tend to show off/flaunt their looks, money, intelligence, assets, ego, playing ability, technical expertise etc. etc. I prefer understated humility but CAN ACCEPT these other more assertive traits...just don't want to hang with 'em...understand?
This includes, again IMHO, individuals who CONSISTENTLY have no interest or seem to not care about what they are getting for their hard earned dollars. I personally don't respect people who spend just to prove they have it to spend. That's their/your choice and there have purchases I've made where value didn't figure into the decision, but don't expect everyone to agree with you and I don't expect everyone to agree with my attitude.
I am not certain why you are taking a shot specifiaclly at me, as I recall you have done that a couple of times now in a couple different threads but I really feel that the point I was trying to make is that the people who are interested in Sadowsky's products have every to be and for you to consistantly come into these threads and try to (for whatever reason) belittle these guys for wanting to buy these products is beyond me. Just go back and look at your participation in the bulk of these threads, same argument, same almost combative behavior (unless I am interpreting you wrong which is possible and if so I am sorry I know it is not the same thing as the 2 of us sitting and having a beer and discussing the same topic so maybe I should chalk it up to that)
I was not in any way about to "pop an artery". I'm just really tired of trying to enjoy the discussion in these threads and constantly see what I consder to be outright trolling to the point that good threads get shut down for no reason other than it degenerates into a flame war. I am no where near "internet or poster rage" as you put it. I am just a bit put off by people who want to give a dissenting view or question another motives to purchase with an air of "I m better than you because I don't spend what you spend" which is EXACTLY how you come across in these threads to me....I will say it again WE DON'T CARE!! It seems to me that your whole point is not of adult civilized discussion but to elicit an environment of dissention and division between those who want to have these discussions and those who don't think we should.
You are most certainly entitled to your opinion but so am I as are the other particiapants. My suggestion was simply that if you don't want to particiapte in a constructive (and that does NOT mean that you have to agree with anyone) but you should cetainly consider that the original intent of this post was for Sadowsky supporters to get info about this head. I can't for the life of me see why you and some of the others would come here knowing that it was a pro Sadowsky thread and then seek to be disruptive and even outright combative in some places. To me when that happens regardless of the intent of the poster it does start a flame war and as we all know that is the goal of the troll!!
If the sole purpose of some of you guys is to flame these threads and start all the dissention I would frankly consider that trolling and I don't think the moderators disagree or they would not shut down so many of these threads. In my opinion, this one does not have much time left. Interestingly enough, we tried to start our own Sadowsky Mega thread and one point and it was closed after only 3 or 4 days. I am not aware of any others that has happened to. If you don't like Sadowsky start an anti Sdaowsky Mega thread, I won't get involved in it and you can dis the man and his products and his business as much as you want and we won't bother you. Please do us all a favor though, we would certainly appreciate it if you could see these threads for what they are information about a new product....that is all, no conspriacy, no elitism, no dissing anyone else and certainly no disrespect to the participants who want to be here and can have a constructive adult discussion about THE TOPIC...which is the amp in this case, not etiquette or dissenting views or who can flame who the best.....
Sorry if I offend anyone here including those that have taken a shot at me or anyone else here but if can't stand the heat......
God Bless you all and Peace,
T
Good point. Virtually no one knows what a Sadowsky is, including bass players. Shoot, the guys in the band I just joined don't even know what a Lakland is, and one of them worked at Guitar Center.bikeplate said:
And Larry, anyone in here who gets offended by anything I say is wasting good adrenaline. Folks, it's all just ones and zeros. How is your life going to be different as a result of anything anyone says in here? You have the choice to take it or leave it. Save your energy for life in the real world, not the aether of the internet. (Like the way I spell "ether" British style?)
I like to have fun chiding people in here occasionally (especially the teenagers, they have so much testosterone and so many raw nerve endings), but this flame-war stuff is getting old. This is for fun and enlightenment. If you don't feel enlightened or entertained by someone else's post, move along. I invoke the words of a fellow California motorist, "Why can't we all just get along?"
