The Eagle Has Landed!!! Sadowsky All-Tube Head!!!

[jacove]

Joker,

I normally run my db750 on 11 gain and between 10 and 12 on the master, never go past 12 o'clock...can the SA200 hold up, do you think...

 

[schmittuml]

any compared this to a HIWATT?

 

[jokerjkny]

$2800...this is going to hurt.

Surprised that it's rated at 210 watts...seems like everybody's selling 500+ now days (sort of like the cars). I like it.

well, 210 "tube" watts = roughly 500 "SS" watts...

Joker,

I normally run my db750 on 11 gain and between 10 and 12 on the master, never go past 12 o'clock...can the SA200 hold up, do you think...

yea, i'd say so. a 7 day return policy should help you find out, too.

 

[Larry Kaye]

I can't get past the pricetag .....where are the innovations or other upgraded or unique componentry that adds almost double the price compared to Mesa 400+, Orange 200, Ampeg SVTCL and SVTAN, Eden VT 300 (same manufacturer of SA200, righrt?), Almost 3x the streetprice of Sunn/Fender 300T, Mesa Buster 200, and 4 times+ the price of a Traynor YBA200. Could each of these heads or all of them perhpas either on their own or with help of an outboard parametric or graphic sound "close enough" or equivalent of the SA200?

I'm just getting tired of the "exclusivity" and "it's not for everybody", and the "well if you can't afford it don't buy it" BS, eliteist type of reasoning being used when someone here challenges the pricepoint of some of, not all of, the more boutiqueish bass and head/speaker cab manufacturers. which seems to be the justification and rationale for charging $2800 for the SA200. I do wonder whether the 410 speaker cab collaberation of Sadowsky and Bergantino is gonna be that way too.

Tommy Bowlus...how much is the projected price for the 410 Bergantino/Sadowsky, have you heard? I can't wait. $1000-1200 street price? I'll believe it when I see it! I could be wrong!

Look, I understand everything has gone up. Do you guys remember the Aguilar DB359? I bought one about 4 years ago for $1250 NEW. It was a $1650ish retail then. 200 watt all tube head, 45 or so pounds? in a two rack space cabinet!!! It was the only 2 rack space tube head out...there was technical innovation in tube layout transformer type and size/weight, + an all aluminum chassis I believe, so they charged a little, not double or 3 times more than the going rate for tube heads. They also have a tremendous reputation for reliability and their preamp sound and quality which was and is still considered one of the best whether contained in their DB750 head or bought separately.

Then, all of a sudden they raised the price retail to $2895. Why? Did their manufacturing costs go up...tubes all of a sudden made outta gold...No...they felt they weren't making enough or were losing too much on it so, kabooom, instant price increase to over double street price for the exact same amp. Guess what? I don't know the details..whether People stopped buying it ior they stopped making it first. (chicken or the egg thing) The result is the same,,,,no more new ones and one of the nicest lightest tube heads that has come out in the past 10 years.

I know the Sadowsky clan is gonna trash me and insult me , but how can a $2800 street price be justified for this head when there are so many other equal too and more powerful tube heads with equal or more features being made both in the US and by Koch for 1/4 to 2/3 the street price. I just feel that "exclusivity" and "supply and demand" are understandable justifications when you're talking about crude oil, where you don't have a whole lotta choices, but bass guitar equipment? Come on!!!

LKaye

 

[Steve Clark]

Larry, I mentioned this in a Fodera thread earlier today: when the value to the consumer exceeds the price being asked the consumer will buy. That's all there is too it. For any product. Kia vs. Aston Martin (mmmmm Aston Martin), Starbucks vs. Tim Horton's and so on.

You do ask a good question about the Sadowsky badged Bergs relative to the 'regular' Bergs. If it looks/sounds like a duck(Berg) then one might be inclined to get the duck (Berg). That would be the value to the consumer statement in action.

One of my other businesses (not music related) deals in the high end of the market. I could double the other business tomorrow and wipe out the competition by cutting the price but then I would have double the managment so this business is priced at a point to make it profitable and manageable. That said the industry as a whole has taken a downturn but based on the price point the business is still strong. Heck, if 10 people were willing to buy the product at $10,000 each that would make the business much easier to manage. When we started the company 15 years ago we were charging $449 for 25 hours of training. Now we charge $799 for 25 hours of training. There are still some in this industry charging $300 for 25 hours. Sheesh the math on that means they can't pay their people a lot of money and still haven't paid for rent.

I played a gig the last month at the opening of a high end home audio store. It's actually possible to spend a $150,000 on home audio in that place. Boggles my mind that there is a market for that. I can't see the store surviving but there may be enough people in the surrounding area who are prepared to pay that and keep the business viable.

Not sure how much I am adding to the discussion. But if nobody bought product X because the price was too high then the manufacturer would have to rethink the strategy but if enough of product X is being sold . . . .


[Must stop editing]

I lied, I can't stop editing. I just wanted to add that I have a huge amount of respect for the small retailers/luthiers who have built successful businesses and is their sole source if income. It is a very tough industry where the margins really are quite slim.

 

[KJung]

Larry, I mentioned this in a Fodera thread earlier today: when the value to the consumer exceeds the price being asked the consumer will buy. That's all there is too it. For any product. Kia vs. Aston Martin (mmmmm Aston Martin), Starbucks vs. Tim Horton's and so on.

You do ask a good question about the Sadowsky badged Bergs relative to the 'regular' Bergs. If it looks/sounds like a duck(Berg) then one might be inclined to get the duck (Berg). That would be the value to the consumer statement in action.

One of my other businesses (not music related) deals in the high end of the market. I could double the other business tomorrow and wipe out the competition by cutting the price but then I would have double the managment so this business is priced at a point to make it profitable and manageable. That said the industry as a whole has taken a downturn but based on the price point the business is still strong. Heck, if 10 people were willing to buy the product at $10,000 each that would make the business much easier to manage.

I played a gig the last month at the opening of a high end home audio store. It's actually possible to spend a $150,000 on home audio in that place. Boggles my mind that there is a market for that. I can't see the store surviving but there may be enough people in the surrounding area who are prepared to pay that and keep the business viable.

Not sure how much I am adding to the discussion. But if nobody bought product X because the price was too high then the manufacturer would have to rethink the strategy but if enough of product X is being sold . . . .

+!... This issue gets rehashed quite a bit. I also deal with this sort of issue as a marketing consultant in my day job. It's all about supply, demand, and the value of your brand and image. For luxury items like this, there's no legal, moral or ethical reason to price your product below what it can sell for. In the particular situation of the Sadowsky tube amp, when you roll in the fact that the volumes are likely going to be too small to get any sort of production efficiencies (i.e., they are probably pretty close to being handmade), the pricing actually doesn't seem out of line.

It also doesn't surprise me that many TBers would think that the price/value equation is out of line. In some ways, that really is the definition of a 'boutique' amp or instrument.... one that is low production, relatively handmade, over the top quality, over the top price!, and a somewhat unique sound, with a brand name that is recognizable and that suggests 'special'. These type products make a small part of the market drool, and make the vast majority of the market think those that are drooling are idiots

 

[cheezewiz]

I can't get past the pricetag .....where are the innovations or other upgraded or unique componentry that adds almost double the price compared to Mesa 400+, Orange 200, Ampeg SVTCL and SVTAN, Eden VT 300 (same manufacturer of SA200, righrt?), Almost 3x the streetprice of Sunn/Fender 300T, Mesa Buster 200, and 4 times+ the price of a Traynor YBA200. Could each of these heads or all of them perhpas either on their own or with help of an outboard parametric or graphic sound "close enough" or equivalent of the SA200?

I'm just getting tired of the "exclusivity" and "it's not for everybody", and the "well if you can't afford it don't buy it" BS, eliteist type of reasoning being used when someone here challenges the pricepoint of some of, not all of, the more boutiqueish bass and head/speaker cab manufacturers. which seems to be the justification and rationale for charging $2800 for the SA200. I do wonder whether the 410 speaker cab collaberation of Sadowsky and Bergantino is gonna be that way too.

Tommy Bowlus...how much is the projected price for the 410 Bergantino/Sadowsky, have you heard? I can't wait. $1000-1200 street price? I'll believe it when I see it! I could be wrong!

Look, I understand everything has gone up. Do you guys remember the Aguilar DB359? I bought one about 4 years ago for $1250 NEW. It was a $1650ish retail then. 200 watt all tube head, 45 or so pounds? in a two rack space cabinet!!! It was the only 2 rack space tube head out...there was technical innovation in tube layout transformer type and size/weight, + an all aluminum chassis I believe, so they charged a little, not double or 3 times more than the going rate for tube heads. They also have a tremendous reputation for reliability and their preamp sound and quality which was and is still considered one of the best whether contained in their DB750 head or bought separately.

Then, all of a sudden they raised the price retail to $2895. Why? Did their manufacturing costs go up...tubes all of a sudden made outta gold...No...they felt they weren't making enough or were losing too much on it so, kabooom, instant price increase to over double street price for the exact same amp. Guess what? I don't know the details..whether People stopped buying it ior they stopped making it first. (chicken or the egg thing) The result is the same,,,,no more new ones and one of the nicest lightest tube heads that has come out in the past 10 years.

I know the Sadowsky clan is gonna trash me and insult me , but how can a $2800 street price be justified for this head when there are so many other equal too and more powerful tube heads with equal or more features being made both in the US and by Koch for 1/4 to 2/3 the street price. I just feel that "exclusivity" and "supply and demand" are understandable justifications when you're talking about crude oil, where you don't have a whole lotta choices, but bass guitar equipment? Come on!!!

LKaye

Larry, I gotta admit, I'm a bit perplexed by your obsession regarding this amp and its price. I mean, if you feel it is too expensive, don't buy it. Simple solution. I can't afford an amp of that price, so I ain't buying one. I can't imagine constantly posting about an amp I can't buy and have never played. I'm NOT one of the Sadowsky crowd. I can't afford 'em. I'm looking forward to check Tom's out some time though!

 

[Fretless5verfan]

For luxury items like this, there's no legal, moral or ethical reason to price your product below what it can sell for.

No offense to you or Tom or any other legal minded people, but you have moral AND ethical reason to do EVERYTHING. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but if out of nowhere custom shop fenders cost 15,000 and a couple rich people buy them so they keep it up there, it's a moral diservice to other players who could have afforded it at 4-5000, and it shows an overall goal of getting rich instead of a love for the music and the instruments themselves. I think that's the key. This isn't pointed at Roger, btw.

Is this head hand built on the inside? If not, i don't see the price justification. If this is produced just like other tube heads (2x the power btw) there's really nothing boutique about it. boutique stuff is personalized to your taste, and even though i might like the SA200s sound, i had nothing to do with what it looks like, sounds like, etc. Now with one of his basses that'd be a different deal. With those, tons of time is spent on them making sure they're perfect. Does the same thing happen with the Amp? If so i can see myself paying fo it with little hesitation.

 

[Scutterflux]

Seriously though, why would you want to pay that much for an amp like that, to impress tom and Jkrjny (just as an example IMHO you guys are respected and seem to be admired by others on tb, based on the gear you own and the opinions you hold) and some other Tb nerds IMHO. If you like tube sound get an old fender or mesa or traynor, or a peavey, sunn, and enjoy, get a graphic eq and make them sound like the Sad if you must. There all out there because somebody liked the tone at one point and thought it was marketable and then sold them for 10 or more years because there good sounding and reliable at a reasonable price. Appreciate what you can afford, and let the rich analize there tone and depate who's got the best, because it obviously makes them feel special to have something no one else can afford. With a little time and patients you can find a tube amp of desireable tone and with a little tube swapping make it even more desireable, and eq it for that Phat warm and clear sound if you must. You don't always have to spend allot, I found this out after trading in my M-pulse $2000 cdn for an all tube traynor yba-200 $855 cdn and then again for an all tube Peavey alphabass $200 cdn, And I regard each of these a progressive step in the search for my ultimate tone. Granted I did just upgrade my cabs from mesa to EA, But I got them used. Just be patient and let the rich take the brunt of the cost, and then buy one used in a few years when thunderfunk and sansamp make there all tube amps and the Sadowsky thrill is gone. This is what happens everytime a new pricey amp comes out, everybody seems to get excited, and say it's the best they've ever heard, no it's just different, and exciting like a new girlfriend, and it can't do anything wrong, at least not at the start.

 

[tombowlus]

Larry, I gotta admit, I'm a bit perplexed by your obsession regarding this amp and its price. I mean, if you feel it is too expensive, don't buy it. Simple solution. I can't afford an amp of that price, so I ain't buying one. I can't imagine constantly posting about an amp I can't buy and have never played. I'm NOT one of the Sadowsky crowd. I can't afford 'em. I'm looking forward to check Tom's out some time though!

+1 If you don't plan on buying it because of the price (or for any other reason), why do you care if other people do like it and find the price withing reason? Sure, a Subaru Legacy GT Wagon does a lot of what my Audi S6 can do (they are both AWD wagons with a "sporty" bent), but I chose to buy the Audi (which costs about 2.5X the price of the Subaru, new - of course I bought mine used). The Subaru is a great car that makes a lot of sense for many people, but I prefer the Audi for a whole host of reasons (and fortunately, I was able to afford it). Sames goes for the SA200 versus some of the competition you mentioned.

As for the price of the Bergantino-designed 4x10, it's going to be right about $1,000, and will be the same price whether you buy it from Sadowsky or from Bergantino (I think that they will all have the Sadowsky badge on them, but I also believe that you will be able to buy from authorized dealers of both).

Tom.

 

[Steve Clark]

Tb nerds IMHO.

Hey did you just call me a nerd? (smilies, lots of smilies)

Enjoy the EA cabs.

 

[emjazz]

......no it's just different, and exciting like a new girlfriend, and it can't do anything wrong......

So this is why those married guys get so much gear........

 

[Larry Kaye]

AT least not yet

I was a bit surprised by a couple of responses, and will comment tonight. Let's see what else comes down the pike after some of the more vocal Sadowskyites reply like I'm sure they will.

Have a great time digesting yesterday's meal!!!

Larry

 

[Steve Clark]

AT least not yet

I was a bit surprised by a couple of responses, and will comment tonight. Let's see what else comes down the pike after some of the more vocal Sadowskyites reply like I'm sure they will.

Have a great time digesting yesterday's meal!!!

Larry

I hope I didn't sound like I was trashing you. Not intended in that manner at all.

 

[KJung]

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but if out of nowhere custom shop fenders cost 15,000 and a couple rich people buy them so they keep it up there, it's a moral diservice to other players who could have afforded it at 4-5000, and it shows an overall goal of getting rich instead of a love for the music and the instruments themselves. I think that's the key.

I totally and completely disagree with you. Maybe with basic food, clothing, etc. you might have a point... but a totally non-essential luxury item Also, these guys are not getting rich!

 

[Fretless5verfan]

I totally and completely disagree with you. Maybe with basic food, clothing, etc. you might have a point... but a totally non-essential luxury item Also, these guys are not getting rich!

Read what i said. It's a theoretical situation. I never said they were getting rich now.


If you're making basses AND money, then you suddenly upcharge for the same product without increased costs or something of that nature, you're attempting to make extra money off of people and your focus isn't on delivering a super high quality instrument to as many players as possible. Which, IMHO people like Roger, Carey, Keith, and company actually focus on.

 

[KJung]

Read what i said. It's a theoretical situation. I never said they were getting rich now.

Here's what you said.

No offense to you or Tom or any other legal minded people, but you have moral AND ethical reason to do EVERYTHING. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but if out of nowhere custom shop fenders cost 15,000 and a couple rich people buy them so they keep it up there, it's a moral diservice to other players who could have afforded it at 4-5000, and it shows an overall goal of getting rich instead of a love for the music and the instruments themselves. I think that's the key. This isn't pointed at Roger, btw.



My disagreement is with the idea that charging a lot for a luxury item is somehow 'immoral'. I don't get it.

 

[Fretless5verfan]

I never said it was immoral to charge a lot man. Charging alot and charging a RIDICULOUS amount are two different things.

 

[cheezewiz]

AT least not yet

I was a bit surprised by a couple of responses, and will comment tonight. Let's see what else comes down the pike after some of the more vocal Sadowskyites reply like I'm sure they will.

Have a great time digesting yesterday's meal!!!

Larry

No trashing at all intended Larry. It was just something that struck me. You seem to be getting pretty cranked up over an amp you have no interest it. I must admit, I WOULD be interested in one (as well as Sadowsky basses....especially some of the more "vintagey" models), but with a wife, 3 kids, an ex, child support, a mortgage, living above my means, and a crappy salary, none of these are in the cards in this lifetime.

 

[bikeplate]

HI

More crap

Rob