The holocaust..

[D.Don]

I dont know if nazis did make a lot of money out of killing jews, but they were used as work force to build tanks and other war machinery before they were sent to the death chambers.

Siemens, VW Group and lots of other big German companies has paid a lot of fees to families who suffered WW2 concentration and labor camps, as many of these companies where more or less founded during that time and driven by the Nazi government.

D.Don

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

I dont know if nazis did make a lot of money out of killing jews, but they were used as work force to build tanks and other war machinery before they were sent to the death chambers.

The confiscated (i.e., stolen) property of the imprisoned and murdered Jews made some Nazis fairly wealthy, at least for a few years.

 

[KPAX]

The US and Roosevelt were plenty concerned but before WW2 the US military was in no position to do much of anything except get beat. Between WWI and WWII the US cut the military back to a small, weak, ill-equipped and obsolete nub and was mired in the great depression.
I believe I read that on the eve of WWII (1939) the US army was smaller that that of Romania whereas Germany had one of the largest, and no doubt the best equipped and trained army.
It was almost 1942 when the US was attacked and it took 2.5 years before the military was ready to take Germany on in the open spaces of Europe.
By the time it was over the US and it's military had won a war on two continents and oceans while significantly feeding and equipping British, Soviet, French, Polish, Chinese (and other) forces and populations on the tab of the US taxpayers and in their blood.
I don't see anything sad in that and I don't know of anything like it before or since.

I think it's a sad historical note that the United States wasn't concerned enough about the atrocities being committed by the Nazis to actually do something about it until we were forced to take sides by the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor.

 

[UncleFluffy]

The US and Roosevelt were plenty concerned but before WW2 the US military was in no position to do much of anything except get beat.

That's partly true, but there were also a lot of people holding strong isolationist (or even pro-German in some cases) views. For an amusing look at this, check out a book called "Dr Suess Goes To War" - it's a collection of editorial cartoons pre- and during WW2 drawn by Dr Suess trying to rally support for taking action.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

There's some of it [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] but I recommend anyone interested in that time get the book, it's a great read.

 

[KPAX]

Looking at the names on those trees, that would be 1941. What could the US military have done then? Well, we soon learned in Bataan and Corregidor, didn't we?
It's one thing to draw a cartoon, it's quite another to take on and beat the Nazis.
During the Great Depression the US population was justifiably ambivalent about taking sides in another European war especially after learning the anti-German propaganda of atrocities it was fed in WWI was overwhelmingly false and after witnessing the punishing terms the Versailles Treaty (which the US opposed) France (and Britain) forced on Germany after that war.
After the conclusion of WWI many Americans felt disgusted, duped and used by it's European allies. If that war had been concluded differently (and more justly), WWII and Hitler probably wouldn't have happened.
You might have noticed the US didn't allow it's European allies to set (Western) policy towards the defeated powers after WWII. That time around, the US was firmly in the drivers seat and didn't make a mess of dealing with Germany and Japan.

That's partly true, but there were also a lot of people holding strong isolationist (or even pro-German in some cases) views. For an amusing look at this, check out a book called "Dr Suess Goes To War" - it's a collection of editorial cartoons pre- and during WW2 drawn by Dr Suess trying to rally support for taking action.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

There's some of it [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] but I recommend anyone interested in that time get the book, it's a great read.

 

[burk48237]

Antisemitism is still widespread, especially among muslims, but I think the situation is in few ways comparable to the inter-war years. By that time antisemitism was deeply entrenched many societies, it was an integral part of nation-building in European countries. But it took a totalitarian system to execute Holocaust. Today we have neither the same kind of antisemitism, nor the totalitarian state.

While Anti semitism may not be on the pre war levels in Europe it is certainly on the rise around the world and not just among Muslims. The Muslims had plenty of non muslim support during the Gaza invasion in gross anti-semitism through-out the world. This was in places like Ft. Lauderdale, Amsterdam, And Copenhagen where protesters were chanting "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the Gas" or "Murderers, Go back to the ovens". Wether you disagree or agreed with Israel's Gaza incursion it became a mere excuse for latent anti-semitism all around the western World.

http://www.jeffjacoby.com/1655/yes-its-anti-semitism

Is it at the organized levels it was at when the "elders of the protocols of Zion" was a best seller in Germany? Nope, and while the spread of Islam is certainly fueling it, it is convenient and common through out history to blame the Jews when economic times are tough. This is even happening in Asia.

A CHINESE bestseller titled The Currency War describes how Jews are planning to rule the world by manipulating the international financial system. The book is reportedly read in the highest government circles. If so, this does not bode well for the international financial system, which relies on well-informed Chinese to help it recover from the present crisis.

Link Removed

 

[UncleFluffy]

Looking at the names on those trees, that would be 1941. What could the US military have done then? Well, we soon learned in Bataan and Corregidor, didn't we?
It's one thing to draw a cartoon, it's quite another to take on and beat the Nazis.
During the Great Depression the US population was justifiably ambivalent about taking sides in another European war especially after learning the anti-German propaganda of atrocities it was fed in WWI was overwhelmingly false and after witnessing the punishing terms the Versailles Treaty (which the US opposed) France (and Britain) forced on Germany after that war.

I'm not disagreeing, and certainly not trying to minimize the value of the US contribution. (Father is a military historian, so I was raised on this kind of material). Just trying to paint a broader picture and point people to an interesting historical artifact that many may not know about.

As for the WWI propaganda and the Treaty of Versailles, that could turn into a very long conversation full of "yes, but what about... ?" so I'd rather not even go there. Nothing's ever 100% black or white. (But very rarely 50/50 either, for those who like that kind of simplification).

 

[vene-nemesis]

Siemens, VW Group and lots of other big German companies has paid a lot of fees to families who suffered WW2 concentration and labor camps, as many of these companies where more or less founded during that time and driven by the Nazi government.

D.Don

This reminds me that the car that has been sold the most in the world was co-designed by Hitler and Ferdinand Porsche, VW beetle that is.

 

[vene-nemesis]

The confiscated (i.e., stolen) property of the imprisoned and murdered Jews made some Nazis fairly wealthy, at least for a few years.

Yes this is very true.

I know that one of the reasons for the holocaust was to relocate the economical power of germany under german hands as jews were really wealthy and under control of german economy. So if we think about it as: Nazis had nothing and after the usurpation of jew properties they were able to rise an empire and arm it then yes, the orchestation and execution of the holocaust did make the Nazis rich.

 

[mvw356]

This reminds me that the car that has been sold the most in the world was co-designed by Hitler and Ferdinand Porsche, VW beetle that is.

hitler had nothing to do with the design of the beetle. he told Dr. Porsche to design a reliable and cheap car and the beetle was the result. porsche also designed the tiger tank, amongst many other tanks and military vehicles. the 'schwimmwagen' and 'kübelwagen' were derivatives of the beetle.


a couple of weeks ago there was a very interesting article in ' der Speigel' about the holocaust and how other nations were involved. the essence was that without the help of the occupied territories the nazi's would have never achieved that much on their own.


i also learnt the other day that isreal has some blatantly antisemitic neo nazi groups too, and the most shocking part is that these guys are actually jewish. antisemitism will unfortunately not go away because it's easy to dump your problems on a relatively small group of people that you don't know much about or care to know about.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Yes this is very true.

I know that one of the reasons for the holocaust was to relocate the economical power of germany under german hands as jews were really wealthy and under control of german economy. So if we think about it as: Nazis had nothing and after the usurpation of jew properties they were able to rise an empire and arm it then yes, the orchestation and execution of the holocaust did make the Nazis rich.

The Nazis went after the more numerous Jews who weren't really wealthy, too. Think of it this way: if you acquired the wealth of several middle-class neighbors, you could be comparatively quite well off, too.

 

[Bass Viking]

I fear that in the future we could see anti-semitism directed towards American jews in response to the US government and American media overwhelmingly pro-Israel stance in middle east affairs. As it stands now, anyone who criticizes Israel runs the risk of being branded an anti-semite. British journalist Robert Fisk, who is middle east reporter, says that journalists (especially American ones) who show the other side of the conflict have these accusations leveled at them. He says that if this continues, eventually being an anti-semite will become respectable and then the REAL anti-semites will start coming into their own.

 

[Korladis]

I fear that in the future we could see anti-semitism directed towards American jews in response to the US government and American media overwhelmingly pro-Israel stance in middle east affairs. As it stands now, anyone who criticizes Israel runs the risk of being branded an anti-semite. British journalist Robert Fisk, who is middle east reporter, says that journalists (especially American ones) who show the other side of the conflict have these accusations leveled at them. He says that if this continues, eventually being an anti-semite will become respectable and then the REAL anti-semites will start coming into their own.

Indeed. I hate it when people call me anti-semitic for criticizing Israel's government. It's simply not true. I don't hate Jewish people, nor do I hate Israel. I just don't like that country's government. But half the time I don't even like my own government, so what gives?

 

[Korladis]

The Nazis went after the more numerous Jews who weren't really wealthy, too. Think of it this way: if you acquired the wealth of several middle-class neighbors, you could be comparatively quite well off, too.

Plus, many Jewish Germans thought of themselves more as German than Jewish.

To say that Jewish people had control of the economy is a bit foolish in its level of exaggeration.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Plus, many Jewish Germans thought of themselves more as German than Jewish.

To say that Jewish people had control of the economy is a bit foolish in its level of exaggeration.

Exactly.

 

[Norwegianwood]

Yes this is very true.

I know that one of the reasons for the holocaust was to relocate the economical power of germany under german hands as jews were really wealthy and under control of german economy. So if we think about it as: Nazis had nothing and after the usurpation of jew properties they were able to rise an empire and arm it then yes, the orchestation and execution of the holocaust did make the Nazis rich.

Except that the jews were German, and had been so for generations. To say that jews controlled the economy is actually buying into nazi rethoric. It is true that Jews were over represented in the banking sector, but there are several reasons for this - most of which has got to do with repression and anti-semitic laws during the course of modern history. Still, the scope of this over-representation was highly exaggerated, and this is a misconception that lives on to this day. And in the end none of this matter because, as I said, this jews were German. As opposed to easter european jews, German jews were highly integrated in German society, and considered themselves as German as any.

 

[makanudo]

Wow this turned into a really interesting thread, i keep checking back and learning something new..

 

[hbarcat]

I fear that in the future we could see anti-semitism directed towards American jews in response to the US government and American media overwhelmingly pro-Israel stance in middle east affairs. As it stands now, anyone who criticizes Israel runs the risk of being branded an anti-semite. British journalist Robert Fisk, who is middle east reporter, says that journalists (especially American ones) who show the other side of the conflict have these accusations leveled at them. He says that if this continues, eventually being an anti-semite will become respectable and then the REAL anti-semites will start coming into their own.

Yeah, because criticizing Israel is so rare, and those who do are so persecuted.

 

[vene-nemesis]

Except that the jews were German, and had been so for generations. To say that jews controlled the economy is actually buying into nazi rethoric. It is true that Jews were over represented in the banking sector, but there are several reasons for this - most of which has got to do with repression and anti-semitic laws during the course of modern history. Still, the scope of this over-representation was highly exaggerated, and this is a misconception that lives on to this day. And in the end none of this matter because, as I said, this jews were German. As opposed to easter european jews, German jews were highly integrated in German society, and considered themselves as German as any.

Oh excuse my bad english i by no means meant that the jew comunity in germany werent germans, even though what i wrote might be taken that way. After re-reading my post i did notice that it might have sound pro nazi, i apologize for this, sometimes it is hard for me explain myself properly since im selfthaught on english. When i said jews and germans i meant to use it like the "us and them" analogy to make a difference between the parties in play.

However if i remember correctly from my history lessons back in the day when hitler was raising the nazi party one of the main pillars of the nazi ideals was the belief that jews and not just german jews but also french and soviet jews, among other nationalities, dominated the economy of europe.

I think that the word "belief" is key to solve this missunderstanding.

 

[MaskedJackal]

. As opposed to eastern european jews, German jews were highly integrated in German society, and considered themselves as German as any.

Well put. I'm Jewish, and my grandfather remained a proud German until his death last June at 96-- and he and his family went from running a successful furniture company in Berlin to living on crumbs in the states after they bribed a Dutch freighter to take them over to the States. This was in '39. The reason they waited so long was their disbelief-- they refused to believe that their country would allow such atrocities would happen!

This thread for the most part is quite reassuring... too many people seem to brush off the importance Holocaust AND other genocidal events throughout history. Thanks, TB.