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THE LOUDEST SPEAKER IN THE WORLD IS...
- Thread starter Pandafist
- Start date
Just because it's collective doesn't necessarily make it wise.For the gazillionth time, though I'm sure not the last, there is no such thing as underpowering.
Can you elaborate? This is somewhat opposite the information I've gleaned over the years. While not sending a strong enough signal to the speakers (sometimes called "underpowering") can't damage anything, I am under the distinct impression that power amp clipping sends damaging DC signals to the speakers.
Just because it's collective doesn't necessarily make it wise.
If the OP is happy with the amp he can use drivers that will handle it, clipped or not. For the 15 use an Eminence Definimax 4015 LF, for the tens Kappapro 10s. Neither cheap nor lightweight, but they'll take whatever is thrown at them.
I too am asking for some better explanation.
While I do bow to your technical knowledge Bill, there seems to be more than just needing a "more powerful" speaker.
Each of the cabs he mentioned should be more than able to handle that head by themselves, let alone being used in a multi-cab setup.
He openly states that his pre stage is maxed, and he is in a "volume war". Sounds like by the time the signal leaves the power stage, it is seriously clipping.
I use cabs that are rated at 300 - 400 watts and have never blown a speaker because I am feeding them clean power with lots of headroom.
No. If there is DC leaking out of your speaker outs, there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with your amp.
What happens when you push an amp past its limits is the signal gets progressively more clipped. In the most extreme cases of this, you have square waves, which almost any speaker can still handle. They carry significantly more power than an equivalent sine wave, but the nature of the beast itself is not damaging to drivers in any way. It actually doesn't sound all that different from extreme fuzz and synth pedals, and the wave patterns are fairly similar, as well.
What problem IS happening here is that the OP, with all of his distortion at the preamp and poweramp stages, is not noticing his speakers distorting. That's what happens when you're pushing the speakers beyond their limits with too much power at any given frequency. Low frequencies are especially notorious for this. He keeps chugging away, thinking all of that glorious distortion is coming from his pedals and his cranked up amp, and BAM! Speakers start dying. Voice coils melt, tweeters fry, cones tear, all of the horror stories.
So, if the man is blowing speakers left and right, he needs to make his tone a little more conservative so he can hear when he's pushing his speakers too hard, or he needs to hook himself up with some SERIOUSLY powerful speakers. And you don't compromise your tone for anything, so it's time to bring out the big guns.
I agree that your head is most likely the problem. With a tube head you'd simply end up with more dirt (which it sounds like you want) rather than clipping a solid state head, which is probably what's blowing speakers.
There are lots of good speakers, but I'd look at the head upgrade. An SVT-CL or VR and an 810e would be a good combination for what you're doing.
There are lots of good speakers, but I'd look at the head upgrade. An SVT-CL or VR and an 810e would be a good combination for what you're doing.
Clipping an SS head's output isn't the problem - the same thing could happen with an all-tube head, too. AFAICT, he's just trying to do too much in the wrong way. Sure, the amp's holding up, but his quest for "Gain past 11" is overexerting his speakers. It's a number of problems, here... not being able to recognize when he's gone too far with pushing his speakers... probably bad EQing (i.e., boosting the lows like crazy)... etc.
The reason why I suggested a head with more headroom is because I suspect that he IS boosting the lows too much or doing something else terribly wrong with his EQ, to make up for what he's not getting with his current head. He's killing his speakers in an attempt to stand out against a crazy keyboardist. But headroom alone won't solve anything, because then he risks overpowering his speakers in a different way.
Pandafist, what do your EQ settings look like? You shouldn't have to blow drivers constantly to stand out in the mix. It does seem like you're doing something wrong - perhaps scooping the mids or something. Cranking the lows won't help you stand out and be heard.
The reason why I suggested a head with more headroom is because I suspect that he IS boosting the lows too much or doing something else terribly wrong with his EQ, to make up for what he's not getting with his current head. He's killing his speakers in an attempt to stand out against a crazy keyboardist. But headroom alone won't solve anything, because then he risks overpowering his speakers in a different way.
Pandafist, what do your EQ settings look like? You shouldn't have to blow drivers constantly to stand out in the mix. It does seem like you're doing something wrong - perhaps scooping the mids or something. Cranking the lows won't help you stand out and be heard.
Whoa hold on a second. These may be great speakers, but no-one has even mentioned the importance of the Speaker / Box relationship.
Even great speakers can sound like a$$ if you put them in the wrong size box and/or don't get the tuning correct.
Forget the replacement idea unless you're up to speed on your loudspeaker design theory.
Thanks for that post Mystic
That's why I said it has to be more than just a matter of better speakers.
It seems like a chain event of problems, and there is no "ONE" easy fix.
And I agree with you 100% Petebass.
Actually I am very surprised that Bill would just suggest some high power speakers to the OP without mentioning that they may sound like ass
That's why I said it has to be more than just a matter of better speakers.
It seems like a chain event of problems, and there is no "ONE" easy fix.
And I agree with you 100% Petebass.
Actually I am very surprised that Bill would just suggest some high power speakers to the OP without mentioning that they may sound like ass
Yeah, he ripped me a new one over a question like this! I'm such a n00b equipment-wise!
If you're grinding up your signal that much, there's no way to tell when something is clipping or speakers are reaching their limit. Your just going to keep over stressing components and burning them up.
Find a stompbox that will deliver the sound you like at a low volume. Then turn it off and play your bass clean and loud - until you start to hear the amp clipping or the speakers start protesting. That's as loud as your amp is going to get, period. Re-read Nick Kay's post - he's dead on the money.
If your rig doesn't produce adequate volume cleanly, fuzzing the hell out of it might give you the illusion that it's louder, but in reality it isn't.
Bottom line, get the keyboardist to play at a reasonable volume, or join the fray and get a bigger rig. 2 15"s & 4 10"s or something like that with plenty of juice behind it. A 350 won't cut it.
Find a stompbox that will deliver the sound you like at a low volume. Then turn it off and play your bass clean and loud - until you start to hear the amp clipping or the speakers start protesting. That's as loud as your amp is going to get, period. Re-read Nick Kay's post - he's dead on the money.
If your rig doesn't produce adequate volume cleanly, fuzzing the hell out of it might give you the illusion that it's louder, but in reality it isn't.
Bottom line, get the keyboardist to play at a reasonable volume, or join the fray and get a bigger rig. 2 15"s & 4 10"s or something like that with plenty of juice behind it. A 350 won't cut it.
Guys, with all due respect, one doesn't have to be up to speed on loudspeaker science to change out some drivers in his cabs.
Judging by the OP's description of his settings and desired tone, it seems beyond the point of the subtle nuances achieved by precisely matching and tuning the cab.
At this point, he needs the toughest speakers that will reasonably fill the bill. I'm sure Bill F. is familiar enough with the driver parameters, and possibly the particular cabs, to suggest this as a general fix. When using this much overdrive with a lower powered amp, the tonal finesse is already out the window.
Sounds to me that the OP needs more of everything; power, headroom, cone surface area and/or supertough loudspeakers!
Pandafist, what do your EQ settings look like?
I typically don't use the EQ, ie, flat. I certainly don't boost the lows too much.
I've tried the frown technique mentioned earlier with a little success.
I've also tried bypassing the amp's preamp by running into the effect return. Still clips to the point of no return. My volume level with the pedal off and on is the near the same.
I just don't get it.
I'm going to have to just try a different head and pray it's money well spent. I don't really have it to spend for that matter, but I've always been a great trade-upper
And
I'd like to thank everyone for their help here. I'm definitely learning. This is good.
I typically don't use the EQ, ie, flat. I certainly don't boost the lows too much.
I've tried the frown technique mentioned earlier with a little success.
I've also tried bypassing the amp's preamp by running into the effect return. Still clips to the point of no return. My volume level with the pedal off and on is the near the same.
I just don't get it.
I'm going to have to just try a different head and pray it's money well spent. I don't really have it to spend for that matter, but I've always been a great trade-upper
And
I'd like to thank everyone for their help here. I'm definitely learning. This is good.
Someone asked earlier what my head is.
Ampeg 350H.
Would the 450 be enough?
Or do I have to drop the grand on a SVT Classic?
PS - The reason I chose these over the pro series is... I'm aesthetically more inclined towards the head design as opposed to the rack-mount gear. I think this comes from being a life-long guitar player. Rack-mount heads just look weird to me. I also like my gear to match. It's an issue. I'll probably get over it when I realize that's a ridiculous standard, but until then, I like a head to look like a head, and I like it to look pretty sitting on top of it's offspring.
Ampeg 350H.
Would the 450 be enough?
Or do I have to drop the grand on a SVT Classic?
PS - The reason I chose these over the pro series is... I'm aesthetically more inclined towards the head design as opposed to the rack-mount gear. I think this comes from being a life-long guitar player. Rack-mount heads just look weird to me. I also like my gear to match. It's an issue. I'll probably get over it when I realize that's a ridiculous standard, but until then, I like a head to look like a head, and I like it to look pretty sitting on top of it's offspring.
Honestly, probably not man. You're defintiely not blowing them by putting too much wattage into them, so you're probably melting the coils from poweramp clipping. A speaker with higher handling isn't going to do you any good; clipping will ruin any speaker. It isn't just going to be a matter of popping in some rugged speakers.
I'm not an expert, and I'm not trying to offend, but I'm pretty sure all that is absolutely wrong.
You're underestimating the effect the cab has on the tone. OK so what happens when you put a speaker in a 120Litre box that's works optimally in a 70 Litre box? And what if the box is tuned to 40Hz but the speaker works best at 55Hz? How much harder do you have to push the amp to compensate for all the missing bottom end? How long can you do that before the speaker blows again? And that's just 2 of the thousands of ways to get it wrong..........
Either design the box(s) from scratch and build it right, or buy a pre-made cab(s) that suits your needs. Both are more likely to succeed than a swap-out, especially an un-researched one.
Pete, if Bill Fitzmaurice tells him those are the speakers he should install, then they're the speakers he should install. He IS an audio physicist, after all.
And Panda, no, an SVT 450 wouldn't be much better. In order to do what you want to do, you're going to have to make your peace with rackable amps.
And Panda, no, an SVT 450 wouldn't be much better. In order to do what you want to do, you're going to have to make your peace with rackable amps.
