The Official MTD USA Thread

[Vic]

I'm with Cameron on this one, by far. Why anyone would want to run an MTD through a pre like that is lost to me, and yes when compared to much more expensive pre-amps the Sadowsky is a poo-box.

I think Joe's point, and mine, is that just because running double preamps in this price class generally degrades sound, does not translate to the Sadowsky outboard preamp being "mediocre". It's the wrong application for the device, and therefore a completely inappropriate condition to pass general judgment on it.

Oh, and BTW, the preamp in the MTD is pretty much (if not exactly) a straight up Bart NTMB918. Guess what, same class of device... including the price, so you might as well call the MTD preamp "mediocre" too if you're gonna' go down that road. The REAL difference in the MTD is the pickups, and the extra module in the cavity is just a pre-preamp for the pickups because they're very low output due to their design.

The Sadowsky outboard preamp was designed specifically to be used with a passive instrument, and in particular, a J type bass, because that's what the circuit was designed to be used with from the beginning. That's not to say you can't use it with an active instrument of some kind and maybe even dig the sound, but that wouldn't be the typical case.

It's also ridiculous to compare the Sadowsky preamp to other devices that aren't in its class. It's good for what it is. Just because it's not the world's best of the best (with a price tag to match, mind you), doesn't mean it's crap.

Bottom line is, IMHO, this whole discourse just seems massively silly to me... being critical of a device when used in an application it was not at all designed for, or for comparing it to other devices that are not in its class. Sheesh.

 

[narud]

Last I'll comment on this...Sadowski fanboys...

Cameron

lol, coming from from captain mtd fanboy.... btw, i dont own or plan on owning a sad or one his pres.

why would you buy a pre like that to run an active bass anyway? if you took the guts out of one of your mtd's and ran it in a stompbox, it would do the same thing youre describing the sad as doing.i guess mike is using mediocre pres too.

 

[narud]

I am thinking to buy Sadowski outboard preamp, but from your experience now I was

dont believe the hype if youre running a passive bass or an active bass with the pre bypassed, its a great box.

 

[KJung]

I am thinking to buy Sadowski outboard preamp, but from your experience now I was

Cameron (and cliffd) is unfortunately confused. The Sadowsky (and ANY battery powered outboard preamp like the A-C, FBass, etc. circuits) are identical to the internal on-board EQ circuits these luthiers put in their basses, and were originally designed for players with vintage Fender instruments who wanted to go 'active' without in any way modifying their instruments. As was mentioned, the internal Sadowsky pre and external box pre are the same circuit (although the stomp box version has some extra bells and whistles like a mute switch and a nice DI), and very similar in design and quality to the Bart circuit used by MTD.

These small external boxes are not 'preamps' in the sense of the Millenia or other AC powered true 'preamps' that are capable of driving a power amp, etc.

You would never want to run a bass with an on-board pre into ANOTHER on-board preamp type circuit that happens to be in a box. That is just pure 'user error' based on not understanding what these boxes are. The issue with the MTD is that since the pickups are active, there is no preamp bypass mode, so these bases kind of 'do what they do' (that very active, wide tone). You don't have the option of bypassing the on-board pre if you want to try one of these 'on-board pre's in a stomp box' units from other manufacturers.

Edit: Basically +1 to all of Vic's and Narud's posts about this.

 

[KJung]

He does. I havent been there in a while but I remember him having an EA cab and some SWR gear also.

The IP rig is the ultimate with MTD. I also remember a Glock HeartRock through an S1 Epifani 410 being a fairly religious experience.

JC

Just another perspective from one who has about a thousand gigs (literally) under his belt with a couple different MTD's (ash/wenge and ash/ash/maple) and lots of rigs.

While these very widely voiced rigs like the Epi UL's with the 502/902, the iAmp500/800, some of the Berg HT models, and the Glock HeartRock/Soul heads sound amazing in the basement or shop with most MTD basses, I found them VERY problematic on the gig (at least in the mixes I perform in). For better or worse, the MTD preamp/active pickup voicing has a VERY wide frequency footprint, which gives the impression of scooped mids to many who play and listen to these basses (especially low mids, where the meat of a bass sound resides)....super deep low end, super sizzly 10K+ upper treble sizzle. When you combine that tonal footprint with heads and cabs that have that same 'super wide hi pass/lo pass filtering' type voice (Epi heads and UL cabs, TecAmp heads, some of the wider voiced Berg HT's like the old HT210, and the HeartRock/Soul class of Glock heads), it can easily be way too much of a good thing, especially if you are playing pop music in a busy mix at high volumes.

That MTD voicing also can cause some headaches for soundpersons with large front of house systems in large venues, if they don't take the time to apply a LOT of EQ tightening/hi pass filtering to those basses.

I find that the MTD's, many of which (especially the wenge necked instruments and also those chambered versions) sounding overly low end extended, overly clicky up top and lacking mid punch with wider voiced rigs, can really work much better with more mid voiced rigs with a bit of built in 'warmth' to take that uber modern edge off the top end.

IMO, and just another point of view from a former MTD user with a LOT if gigs under his belt with these very nice basses. The point is, be careful about becoming overly enamored with the simply amazing, wide, hi fi 'solo' tone of these instruments in a shop or at home. That tone profile can cause a LOT of issues live, especially if you engage the super deeply voiced bass control of that modified Bart on-board pre.

IMO and lots of IME

 

[Bassflute]

I'm with Cameron on this one, by far. Why anyone would want to run an MTD through a pre like that is lost to me, and yes when compared to much more expensive pre-amps the Sadowsky is a poo-box.

Exactly...

I am thinking to buy Sadowski outboard preamp, but from your experience now I was

not for an active bass...a passive bass, that's another story...

The Sadowsky preamp sounds good (to me) if you plug into it a passive bass in order to have the "active bass" options.

I tried it and enjoyed it with my passive Jass Bass, however honestly I never tought plugging my MTDs into it as they are already active basses.

A voice of reason...

I think Joe's point, and mine, is that just because running double preamps in this price class generally degrades sound, does not translate to the Sadowsky outboard preamp being "mediocre". It's the wrong application for the device, and therefore a completely inappropriate condition to pass general judgment on it.

Oh, and BTW, the preamp in the MTD is pretty much (if not exactly) a straight up Bart NTMB918. Guess what, same class of device... including the price, so you might as well call the MTD preamp "mediocre" too if you're gonna' go down that road. The REAL difference in the MTD is the pickups, and the extra module in the cavity is just a pre-preamp for the pickups because they're very low output due to their design.

The Sadowsky outboard preamp was designed specifically to be used with a passive instrument, and in particular, a J type bass, because that's what the circuit was designed to be used with from the beginning. That's not to say you can't use it with an active instrument of some kind and maybe even dig the sound, but that wouldn't be the typical case.

It's also ridiculous to compare the Sadowsky preamp to other devices that aren't in its class. It's good for what it is. Just because it's not the world's best of the best (with a price tag to match, mind you), doesn't mean it's crap.

Bottom line is, IMHO, this whole discourse just seems massively silly to me... being critical of a device when used in an application it was not at all designed for, or for comparing it to other devices that are not in its class. Sheesh.

Some of this I agree with, although I didn't personally attack you. And if you plugged an MTD into ANOTHER Bartolini preamp, it would probably sound like muck as well...

lol, coming from from captain mtd fanboy.... btw, i dont own or plan on owning a sad or one his pres.

why would you buy a pre like that to run an active bass anyway? if you took the guts out of one of your mtd's and ran it in a stompbox, it would do the same thing youre describing the sad as doing.i guess mike is using mediocre pres too.

The original poster was going to, not me. I just voiced my opinion on what an MTD sounds like through an external Sadowski preamp because I've heard it...it sounds like ****.

Cameron (and cliffd) is unfortunately confused. The Sadowsky (and ANY battery powered outboard preamp like the A-C, FBass, etc. circuits) are identical to the internal on-board EQ circuits these luthiers put in their basses, and were originally designed for players with vintage Fender instruments who wanted to go 'active' without in any way modifying their instruments. As was mentioned, the internal Sadowsky pre and external box pre are the same circuit (although the stomp box version has some extra bells and whistles like a mute switch and a nice DI), and very similar in design and quality to the Bart circuit used by MTD.

These small external boxes are not 'preamps' in the sense of the Millenia or other AC powered true 'preamps' that are capable of driving a power amp, etc.

You would never want to run a bass with an on-board pre into ANOTHER on-board preamp type circuit that happens to be in a box. That is just pure 'user error' based on not understanding what these boxes are. The issue with the MTD is that since the pickups are active, there is no preamp bypass mode, so these bases kind of 'do what they do' (that very active, wide tone). You don't have the option of bypassing the on-board pre if you want to try one of these 'on-board pre's in a stomp box' units from other manufacturers.

Edit: Basically +1 to all of Vic's and Narud's posts about this.

I'm not the slightest bit confused. You PARTIALLY read my initial posts and started talking about the internal Sadowski pre. And the external pre is not EXACTLY the same at all, because you are running the signal down TWO cables, with all the resultant signal loss, so it is NOT the same as hooking it directly to the pickups and output of a bass. It's more like running a Corvette engine through 20' of driveshaft....

So, to reiterate, in my opinion, an MTD American running into a Sadowski offboard pre sounds like ****...if you want to run these with an offboard preamp, get a good one.

Cameron

 

[CliffD]

What I am not confused about is the fact that I'm jonesin' for an MTD inmy hands, yes indeed.

 

[KJung]

What I am not confused about is the fact that I'm jonesin' for an MTD inmy hands, yes indeed.

That makes sense to me.

 

[Joelc73]

If you could bypass the MTD pre-amp (which you cannot) it might be worth running the Sadowsky outboard box. I did that for a while with my Foderas. I ran them passively into the Sadowsky pre. It sounded pretty good actually.

 

[Joelc73]

Just another perspective from one who has about a thousand gigs (literally) under his belt with a couple different MTD's (ash/wenge and ash/ash/maple) and lots of rigs.

While these very widely voiced rigs like the Epi UL's with the 502/902, the iAmp500/800, some of the Berg HT models, and the Glock HeartRock/Soul heads sound amazing in the basement or shop with most MTD basses, I found them VERY problematic on the gig (at least in the mixes I perform in). For better or worse, the MTD preamp/active pickup voicing has a VERY wide frequency footprint, which gives the impression of scooped mids to many who play and listen to these basses (especially low mids, where the meat of a bass sound resides)....super deep low end, super sizzly 10K+ upper treble sizzle. When you combine that tonal footprint with heads and cabs that have that same 'super wide hi pass/lo pass filtering' type voice (Epi heads and UL cabs, TecAmp heads, some of the wider voiced Berg HT's like the old HT210, and the HeartRock/Soul class of Glock heads), it can easily be way too much of a good thing, especially if you are playing pop music in a busy mix at high volumes.

That MTD voicing also can cause some headaches for soundpersons with large front of house systems in large venues, if they don't take the time to apply a LOT of EQ tightening/hi pass filtering to those basses.

I find that the MTD's, many of which (especially the wenge necked instruments and also those chambered versions) sounding overly low end extended, overly clicky up top and lacking mid punch with wider voiced rigs, can really work much better with more mid voiced rigs with a bit of built in 'warmth' to take that uber modern edge off the top end.

IMO, and just another point of view from a former MTD user with a LOT if gigs under his belt with these very nice basses. The point is, be careful about becoming overly enamored with the simply amazing, wide, hi fi 'solo' tone of these instruments in a shop or at home. That tone profile can cause a LOT of issues live, especially if you engage the super deeply voiced bass control of that modified Bart on-board pre.

IMO and lots of IME

All valid points. I've never used that rig live - but it makes one hell of a basement practice rig!

I would think it would be a nice rig though for a sparse (trio perhaps) where the AJ vibe and tone would work.

 

[KJung]

All valid points. I've never used that rig live - but it makes one hell of a basement practice rig!

I would think it would be a nice rig though for a sparse (trio perhaps) where the AJ vibe and tone would work.

+1

 

[Vic]

Some of this I agree with, although I didn't personally attack you. And if you plugged an MTD into ANOTHER Bartolini preamp, it would probably sound like muck as well...

I didn't think you attacked me, we're good on that, and what you say here as well is pretty much my main point. It's not the device, it's the application that's bad, and causing the "mediocre" results (which I would expect... at best, actually).

Oh, and for the record, for those who might not know this about me, I own multiple Sadowsky basses AND multiple MTD USA basses, so I'm not biased in particular one way or another. I think they're both absolutely top of the game instruments... just in a totally and completely different tonal realm, that's all.

 

[DRay521]

I just picked up another 535 in a trade. I haven't had a chance to plug her in yet but, just like all of Mike's children, she sure looks pretty! Black limba with a mac ebony top and a wenge/wenge neck. I'll post some pictures later.

I don't know about y'all, but after all that Sadowsky preamp tangent I'm still just wanting to see pictures of this bass...

 

[tombowlus]

I'm still just wanting to see pictures of this bass...

+1 I have had a 535 in the works with Mike for a long time (brown ash body, mac ebony top, flamed ash neck with white wenge strigers, birdseye maple board), but we've been waiting for the ebony for the top to dry. So I'd love to see another ebony top MTD to tide me over! I reviewed an ash/ebony/ash/maple 635 in issue #2, and ebony tops really do sound/look great on MTDs!

 

[lindseyp]

... The question was what an OFFBOARD EXTERNAL Sadowski preamp sounds like with an MTD, and having had one for quite a few months, I VOICED MY OPINION...fluffy, woofy, and completely mediocre.
...

With HIS MTD. My ahs-necked 535 sounds pretty good through one, so you'll have to find one, plug into it and determine for yourself. Maybe next week we'll plug the maple-necked one into the Sadowsky to hear what happens. I'm not questioning anyone's opinion here, just pointing out another experience, and I'd like to know if more people use this or any other box. Our bass player really likes the Sadowsky and I don't have anything similar to compare it to.

 

[Sithian]

Thank you all for your feedback regarding the Sadowsky outboard preamp. I know that it was an oddball question, given the fact that MTD's are active basses. I figured that there would be several differing opinions on this, and I am glad to hear the different sides of the coin. I was also well aware that someone here would have tried this.

Anyone old enough to remember the old Reese's peanut butter cup slogan "two great tastes that taste great together" (you got your chocolate in my peanut butter)....

Well- was thinking that maybe that would be the case with this combination (although I probably would've known that by now).... and I am also not one to shy away from asking a question if I am curious...

 

[bass12]

I haven't had time to take my own pictures but here are a few taken by the previous owner:

 

[Georges Abitbol]

Just another perspective from one who has about a thousand gigs (literally) under his belt with a couple different MTD's (ash/wenge and ash/ash/maple) and lots of rigs.

While these very widely voiced rigs like the Epi UL's with the 502/902, the iAmp500/800, some of the Berg HT models, and the Glock HeartRock/Soul heads sound amazing in the basement or shop with most MTD basses, I found them VERY problematic on the gig (at least in the mixes I perform in). For better or worse, the MTD preamp/active pickup voicing has a VERY wide frequency footprint, which gives the impression of scooped mids to many who play and listen to these basses (especially low mids, where the meat of a bass sound resides)....super deep low end, super sizzly 10K+ upper treble sizzle. When you combine that tonal footprint with heads and cabs that have that same 'super wide hi pass/lo pass filtering' type voice (Epi heads and UL cabs, TecAmp heads, some of the wider voiced Berg HT's like the old HT210, and the HeartRock/Soul class of Glock heads), it can easily be way too much of a good thing, especially if you are playing pop music in a busy mix at high volumes.

That MTD voicing also can cause some headaches for soundpersons with large front of house systems in large venues, if they don't take the time to apply a LOT of EQ tightening/hi pass filtering to those basses.

I find that the MTD's, many of which (especially the wenge necked instruments and also those chambered versions) sounding overly low end extended, overly clicky up top and lacking mid punch with wider voiced rigs, can really work much better with more mid voiced rigs with a bit of built in 'warmth' to take that uber modern edge off the top end.

IMO, and just another point of view from a former MTD user with a LOT if gigs under his belt with these very nice basses. The point is, be careful about becoming overly enamored with the simply amazing, wide, hi fi 'solo' tone of these instruments in a shop or at home. That tone profile can cause a LOT of issues live, especially if you engage the super deeply voiced bass control of that modified Bart on-board pre.

IMO and lots of IME

I found exactly the same thing.
I usualy boosts the mids & the bass on the preamp of my MTDs to enhance mids to avoid mid scooping.
I tried Accugroove, Glockenklang, some brands which produce high power & lightweight amps... sound good alone, sound not so good live.
Now I use a Mesa 400+ or an Ampeg SVT 2 pro with Mesa PH cabs (PH410 or PH1000), to me, it's the perfect match to my MTDs.

 

[tombowlus]

I haven't had time to take my own pictures but here are a few taken by the previous owner:

Wow! That's beautiful!

 

[bass12]

Wow! That's beautiful!

It's funny, because I saw an old post of mine where I stated my dislike of ebony tops! This one didn't even have to grow on me. Looking forward to seeing your next build, Tom - stringers and all!