The Official MTD USA Thread

[bucephylus]

Sounds like this may be a 'round hole, square peg' situation. Not everything works for everyone; some just need meat & potatoes. It comes across to me like a knee jerk reaction that just needs a step back to properly evaluate, but that just might be my perception and I could be way off base. Hoping you're able to give it the time but understand if you're not willing to.

Thanks for the support.

In fact, I just had a fairly interesting discussion with Mike; who is a completely gracious cat and completely generous with his time.

I understand enough of what’s going on now that I am at least going to get a Peterson and give the recommended intonation a shot. It still basically bothers me that notes up the neck get systematically sharp. But, Mike’s logic is that setup produces better ensemble intonation. So, I’m willing to give it a shot. I confess that I’ve never noticed intonation issues with my “old way” intonated Fenders. Or earlier Tobiases. Anyhow, I’ll give it a go.

BTW, FWIW, simply moving the bridge back won’t return the instrument to the “old way” of being properly intonated. The zero fret also has to be relocated further towards the nut; a somewhat non-trivial change.

Mike also mentioned that some VERY well known and skilled players have simply not been able to adjust to this “stretch” intonation / tuning. Bobby Vega was one he mentioned. So, the whole thing is pretty non-trivial.

The hardest part for me is unthinking stuff that has accumulated the last 50+ years, which I thought was correct. The more I know, the more I don’t know it seems.

 

[bucephylus]

There is a discussion with offsets here:
Intonation offsets for Buzz Feiten

Thanks for the reference. I see the offsets listed in Post #6. I still have no idea whatsoever what they mean. But, I’ll keep at it.

 

[bucephylus]

Dude. Take a deep breath, and just de-escalate. Instead of asking a bunch of non-technical enthusiasts here to solve your "problem", Google Buzz's system and learn the value points in the words of its own creator. And then realize you still have two options - to intonate with the BF system, or not to. We're talking about about nearly infinitesimally small increments here. If you are not super familiar with what a cent is in tuning, it's 1/100th of the pitch difference bwteen any two frets on your bass. You're supposedly offsetting by 1 of these on most strings. The fretting system isn't altered on a BF instrument except for to move the nut or zero fret slightly closer to the next fret. You can intonate your bass regularly with practically no discernible difference from a non-BF bass. It's gonna be ok.

You weren’t correctly reading my frustration. Maybe my fault.

To review, I was trying to put my first fresh set of strings on the instrument. I’m using Fodera Nickels. The B string is tapered, but not as tapered as Mike’s B. So, I was trying to reset the intonation by matching the fretted twelfth fret to the twelfth harmonic. But in doing so, the saddle ended up at full throw back, and the fretted note was still sharp.

Now, I get it that the BF intonation doesn’t do that. That’s my ignorance. But, it is frustrating to try to change strings and then find out that my preconceptions about intonation are now wrong, and then have to put the instrument away and not be able to use it because I don’t have the right tuner to set intonation. Anyhow, I think that’s frustrating.

 

[R Briere]

To put my mind at ease, is Buzz Feiten a distant cousin of Beaver Felton at Bass Central? (Just kidding )

And both Buzz and Beaver are the offspring of Batt Masterson ......... hero of the West and well known Bass Player with a Gambling Addiction. Everyone Calm now?

 

[bucephylus]

Batt Masterson, Beaver Felton, or Buzz Feiten?? Well, at least no one compared me to Beavis or Butthead. Yet.

Since I apparently caused consternation this morning, here is a YT video showing Mike’s Setup. The offset adjustment starts at about 4:03.


I believe this explains the use of the offsets that @soflbass referenced. The thing that got me off center this morning was realizing that the bass literally can not be intonated at the 12th fret. That was rather jarring, at least to me. Mike explains what he wants you to do instead.

The reality is that I don’t think anyone you play with will notice the intonation difference. I certainly didn’t, and I have pretty decent pitch discrimination. My hang up came when I couldn’t properly intonate the new strings. Learn by doing; but, this one was a bit unexpected.

 

[bucephylus]

I procured a Peterson Stroboplus HD tuner. This is the tuner Mike recommends, because the Buzz Feiten offsets are “burned into the chip.”

Ok, great. So, between consulting the manual and generally hacking the controls, I managed to select BFB for the so-called “sweetener.” But, my problem now is that there is zero explanation in the manual or the marketing heavy YT vids as to how that “sweetener” (god, I hate that term) actually affects the tuner response.

For example, trying to set intonation on the B string, I tune the open string as accurately as possible a B, 0 octave. OK, check.

The next step is supposed to be to check whether the fretted F# on the 7th fret is 1 cent sharp. Does the tuner automatically know this; such that the display adjustment is to 0 cent sharp? Who knows? No explanation. The result is I have absolutely no idea what the tuner is doing. It doesn’t appear that BFB is doing anything at all. It certainly isn’t “sweetening” my disposition any.

Any help would be appreciated. So far, the Peterson tuner is anything but user friendly. I realize it’s a new tool that requires learning; but, do I have to be a member of some club to find out how it works?

 

[rodneyat]

I procured a Peterson Stroboplus HD tuner. This is the tuner Mike recommends, because the Buzz Feiten offsets are “burned into the chip.”

Ok, great. So, between consulting the manual and generally hacking the controls, I managed to select BFB for the so-called “sweetener.” But, my problem now is that there is zero explanation in the manual or the marketing heavy YT vids as to how that “sweetener” (god, I hate that term) actually affects the tuner response.

For example, trying to set intonation on the B string, I tune the open string as accurately as possible a B, 0 octave. OK, check.

The next step is supposed to be to check whether the fretted F# on the 7th fret is 1 cent sharp. Does the tuner automatically know this; such that the display adjustment is to 0 cent sharp? Who knows? No explanation. The result is I have absolutely no idea what the tuner is doing. It doesn’t appear that BFB is doing anything at all. It certainly isn’t “sweetening” my disposition any.

Any help would be appreciated. So far, the Peterson tuner is anything but user friendly. I realize it’s a new tool that requires learning; but, do I have to be a member of some club to find out how it works?

Yes, the tuner knows all the offsets. That is how it is setup. So, as you stated, when you tuned the open B and then checked the octave you where still in tune. That is how the BFB setup on the Peterson tuners works. You are good to go. Don't get caught up in the 1 cent sharp stuff. Mike talked about that in his video so that, in theory, you could use a "normal" tuner to intonate your bass. He is using a true strobe tuner in the video that does not know the offsets for BFTS. So, that is how he has to intonate there as well. The Peterson tuner you have is digital and has a preset for Buzz Feiten. So, it takes into account all the offsets. Make sense?

 

[bucephylus]

Yes, the tuner knows all the offsets. That is how it is setup. So, as you stated, when you tuned the open B and then checked the octave you where still in tune. That is how the BFB setup on the Peterson tuners works. You are good to go. Don't get caught up in the 1 cent sharp stuff. Mike talked about that in his video so that, in theory, you could use a "normal" tuner to intonate your bass. He is using a true strobe tuner in the video that does not know the offsets for BFTS. So, that is how he has to intonate there as well. The Peterson tuner you have is digital and has a preset for Buzz Feiten. So, it takes into account all the offsets. Make sense?

Ahhh, so, what you are saying is that with the BF setting in the tuner, you just intonate the saddles the “old way” at the octave, and the tuner corrects for the temperament?

If so, that makes a lot of sense; but, it would help to have it explained somewhere.

Many thanks.

 

[bassgrackle]

Yes, the tuner knows all the offsets. That is how it is setup. So, as you stated, when you tuned the open B and then checked the octave you where still in tune. That is how the BFB setup on the Peterson tuners works. You are good to go. Don't get caught up in the 1 cent sharp stuff. Mike talked about that in his video so that, in theory, you could use a "normal" tuner to intonate your bass. He is using a true strobe tuner in the video that does not know the offsets for BFTS. So, that is how he has to intonate there as well. The Peterson tuner you have is digital and has a preset for Buzz Feiten. So, it takes into account all the offsets. Make sense?

I’m gonna be honest I end up using two tuners. One to tune the open strings and the Peterson to tune the intonation so I don’t have to keep messing with settings. And then when I get frustrated enough I drive up to see Mike for him to fix the mess I created. When it’s right, it really sounds quite sweet.

 

[rodneyat]

Ahhh, so, what you are saying is that with the BF setting in the tuner, you just intonate the saddles the “old way” at the octave, and the tuner corrects for the temperament?

If so, that makes a lot of sense; but, it would help to have it explained somewhere.

Many thanks.

Yes that is absolutely correct.

 

[rodneyat]

I’m gonna be honest I end up using two tuners. One to tune the open strings and the Peterson to tune the intonation so I don’t have to keep messing with settings. And then when I get frustrated enough I drive up to see Mike for him to fix the mess I created. When it’s right, it really sounds quite sweet.

Why not use the Peterson all the time? You can use it to tune the open strings too. For a long time, I had my Peterson attached to my pedalboard with it set to the Buzz Feiten preset and used it to tune all the time rather I was setting intonation or not.

 

[bucephylus]

Why not use the Peterson all the time? You can use it to tune the open strings too. For a long time, I had my Peterson attached to my pedalboard with it set to the Buzz Feiten preset and used it to tune all the time rather I was setting intonation or not.

+1

I just did what you recommended above in about 5 minutes, once I understood what was going on. Making the intonation adjustment transparent to the “old method” with built in offsets is just genius. I only wish it was described somewhere. Perhaps, should be obvious, but wasn’t to me.

Thanks again.

 

[bucephylus]

Yes that is absolutely correct.

Not to be a pest; but, after thinking about this a little more, I’m pretty dubious that this can be correct. To be true, the tuner would have to know which note was the octave harmonic and which was the fretted octave. Otherwise, it would be applying the offset to both. I just don’t see how this is possible.

 

[Combinator]

Not to be a pest; but, after thinking about this a little more, I’m pretty dubious that this can be correct. To be true, the tuner would have to know which note was the octave harmonic and which was the fretted octave. Otherwise, it would be applying the offset to both. I just don’t see how this is possible.

That's right, not possible. Use the open string to tune the open string, as opposed to the 12th harmonic (which i also prefer normally) - it will sense the next octave up of that pitch as the 12th fret fretted note. So just use open and 12th fret fretted.

 

[bucephylus]

That's right, not possible. Use the open string to tune the open string, as opposed to the 12th harmonic (which i also prefer normally) - it will sense the next octave up of that pitch as the 12th fret fretted note. So just use open and 12th fret fretted.

Thanks, that makes more sense.

 

[Vic]

Use the open string to tune the open string, as opposed to the 12th harmonic.

I must be missing something.

The 12th harmonic is going to be based on the open string, because in both cases the string is open... so they should be the same (including the offset), so it shouldn't matter which one you use to tune for the open string case.

 

[Combinator]

I must be missing something.

The 12th harmonic is going to be based on the open string, because in both cases the string is open... so they should be the same (including the offset), so it shouldn't matter which one you use to tune for the open string case.

The octave of that note differs between the two though, and the tuner can read the fundamental - I think when it senses the higher octave from higher fundamental, it applies the offset to that instance of that note, since it's programmed to accept standard B (open) for instance but B as X number of cents sharp an octave higher at the 12th fret (as an extension of +1 cent sharp at the 7th of that string).

 

[Vic]

...I think when it senses the higher octave from higher fundamental, it applies the offset to that instance of that note...

THAT's what I was missing. Thanks!

 

[Saluki]

Coming soon...

 

[Vic]

Coming soon...

Woah, nice!!