The Sushi Box FX Secret Society

[bassbrad]

I'd argue, and maybe it's just semantics that we're getting caught up in now, that those aren't the same tube types being swapped. Going from a standard 12AX7 to a 12AX7MG is reducing the level of gain from one tube to the other, which will for sure impact the sound. Different gain stages will definitely yield different response from an amp, and in my opinion, the main reason to roll tubes (besides mechanical failure)!

My suggestion was that the differences between a JJ 12AX7 vs. Tung-Sol 12AX7 vs. Sovtek 12AX7 etc, which all have identical gain levels, are sufficiently minimal (in my own opinion, I suppose, since I seem to be firmly in the minority atm) as to be largely negligible in bass and guitar amplifiers/preamps. Especially in the context of a mix! Particularly in a live mix, there was no chance of me hearing any differences from tube swaps, but even in the studio, any differences should get swallowed up by all the other instruments. Perhaps there are some subtle things one can notice with a solo'd bass, but I'd love to hear sound evidence of those differences carrying over into a musical context.

Not all 12ax7 spec tubes are made the same inside, those differences in design result in minor changes in performance and sound. NOS aka New Old Stock tubes like old GE, JAN or Millard tubes do offer those variations just as much as the difference between JJ and other contemporary tubes. If those differences didn't matter we would all be drinking generic beer like Repo Man.

 

[XLunacy]

Are we having the tonewood conversation here?

My understanding of that issue, which seem to apply here also: "There is probably a marginal difference that could be heard in certain testing conditions and depending on the listener and the setup, but most likely too small to matter in real life applications, especially when compared to most other contributing factors.
It matters, however, that the player feels like he is using the best-sounding device, to give his best, so if that fancy or specific {wood or tube} changes the way the player interacts with the instrument, makes him more confident etc.. then it matters much more than what can l be measured in the lab"
Humans..

 

[johnk_10]

as far as vodka goes, i can easily tell all of the brands of vodka apart. the best that i've ever had was XO, but i usually drink Grey goose (XO is too expensive!)
IMO, if you can't tell Popov, from Smirnoff, or Tito's, then you're not a vodka drinker. none of them taste alike and IMO, Grey Goose is leaps and bounds better (to me) than any of them with the exception of XO.
...........now back to your regular tube rolling discussion.......

 

[gtirard]

Are we having the tonewood conversation here?

My understanding of that issue, which seem to apply here also: "There is probably a marginal difference that could be heard in certain testing conditions and depending on the listener and the setup, but most likely too small to matter in real life applications, especially when compared to most other contributing factors.
It matters, however, that the player feels like he is using the best-sounding device, to give his best, so if that fancy or specific {wood or tube} changes the way the player interacts with the instrument, makes him more confident etc.. then it matters much more than what can l be measured in the lab"
Humans..

Best contribution on the topic, thanks!

 

[lomo]

as far as vodka goes, i can easily tell all of the brands of vodka apart. the best that i've ever had was XO, but i usually drink Grey goose (XO is too expensive!)
IMO, if you can't tell Popov, from Smirnoff, or Tito's, then you're not a vodka drinker. none of them taste alike and IMO, Grey Goose is leaps and bounds better (to me) than any of them with the exception of XO.
...........now back to your regular tube rolling discussion.......

You might enjoy having a blind vodka tasting party...we certainly had a great time, and many of us were truly surprised by the results. Just keep in mind that only double distilled vodkas need apply. The uber cheapo ones are not, but plenty of less expensive ones are.

 

[DennyOnBass]

OK, I did the Finally/Slampegg/Strobostomp mini board into my home studio last night and got this fully hooked up, and I'm getting that whining sound that other people have discussed. I'm powering this with a One Spot and a daisy chain at the moment.

I was able to change it to a whine that only happens during power up - raising in pitch and then lowering until it basically disappears over the course of about 60-90 seconds, by daisy chaining the tuner and the Finally and then powering the Slampegg off of the power out on the tuner.

Is this only a daisy chain issue? I have an MXR Mini Brick power supply I could get under this jury rigged PedalTrain pedal riser I'm using as a board, but I'd need to get some taller feet on this thing to fit even that underneath and likewise grab a current doubler cable to make sure that the pedals are properly powered. It sounds great once the whine goes away, but I'd totally make that change if it would be helpful.

Just put my VT Bass DI up for sale, this is SO much better…
View attachment 5049786

 

[DennyOnBass]

tell us more....

The VT Bass DI was a great utility pedal for me - I'd keep it in my gig bag and basically use it for ampless gigs, sitting in with singer/songwriter friends, jumping in at an open mic with a decent PA, etc. I always felt like I got decent rocky, overdriven tones out of it with my Jazz Bass, but I mainly play PBass with flats these days and I was never really able to dial in anything that I thought resembled a B15 or Motown type sound with that bass and felt that the grit it added was kind of artificial sounding.

I've also been a regular user of the Two Notes VT Bass DI, I've owned two of them, and while I felt like that got me closer to what I was looking for the EQ was still not sitting right for what I was going for. Close, just not quite right. It can kind of do vintage, but it definitely excels at more modern overdriven tones IMO. Again, my Jazz sounded better through it than the P ever did.

I made an immediate connection with the Slampegg as soon as I plugged into it. The grit is right, it's adding to the tone in all the right ways, just enhancing without sounding overly hyped. Definitely more of that B15 vibe that I wanted. It adds the dimension and richness that I was looking for. Being able to have a small tube DI after it is just the icing on the cake. It's just a lot more amp-like, and overall sounds fantastic!

 

[lomo]

[QUOTE="DennyOnBass, post: 27456673, member: 37425"

Is this only a daisy chain issue? I have an MXR Mini Brick power supply I could get under this jury rigged PedalTrain pedal riser I'm using as a board, but I'd need to get some taller feet on this thing to fit even that underneath and likewise grab a current doubler cable to make sure that the pedals are properly powered. It sounds great once the whine goes away, but I'd totally make that change if it would be helpful.[/QUOTE]

Prolly but no way to know 100% for sure until/unless you try....your call as to whether it's worth your while considering it's apparently fine after the tube gets fully powered up.

 

[sears]

Definitely some truth, there, and the flavor/aroma/color (or lack thereof) should all be the same between various vodkas. However, there are some other discernable variables, most notably mouth feel. I won a bet at a convention a few years back by being able to correctly identify various vodka martinis. The bartender prepared six different dry vodka martinis using six different brands of vodka, but otherwise measured/prepared the same way (no olives for this test). I was told what each one was and sampled them all with no blindfold. My compatriots then blindfolded me and mixed up the drinks. I was able to identify them, 6 out of 6. They then switched them up again, and I went 6 for 6, again. It was the mouth feel which provided the distinction. Now, it's possible that the bartender used slightly different amounts of vermouth in each one (he said he didn't), but I've done similar A/B comparisons of just straight vodka, and you can often tell a difference in mouth feel.

My takeaway is that for mixed drinks, when mouth feel doesn't normally matter, don't pay for top shelf vodka. But in a dry vodka martini, I do enjoy some vodkas more than others. YMMV, of course.

12 martinis later...

 

[lomo]

12 martinis later...

LOL……I do loves my martinis….. but I am aware that although one is often not quite enough, two is usually too many.

 

[sloppy_phil]

OK, I did the Finally/Slampegg/Strobostomp mini board into my home studio last night and got this fully hooked up, and I'm getting that whining sound that other people have discussed. I'm powering this with a One Spot and a daisy chain at the moment.

I was able to change it to a whine that only happens during power up - raising in pitch and then lowering until it basically disappears over the course of about 60-90 seconds, by daisy chaining the tuner and the Finally and then powering the Slampegg off of the power out on the tuner.

Is this only a daisy chain issue? I have an MXR Mini Brick power supply I could get under this jury rigged PedalTrain pedal riser I'm using as a board, but I'd need to get some taller feet on this thing to fit even that underneath and likewise grab a current doubler cable to make sure that the pedals are properly powered. It sounds great once the whine goes away, but I'd totally make that change if it would be helpful.

Pretty sure it's a daisy chain issue, but the only way to know for sure is to test it out! FWIW, I have that MXR Mini Iso-Brick and it's dead quiet. Mind you, as far as huge draw pedals, I'm only using one Sushi (UA), but I have the unit happily and quietly powering 9 pedals all told at the moment.

 

[laklandplayer]

Quick question for the collective but first some background:

I am using 2 UA's on my board. The first one I put a 12AT7 in it (Tungsol) and the second has the stock 12AX7. My goal here is to run the first as my basic "Always-On" somewhat clean (I'm really just using this one to add some tube warmth going into my Mesa D800+). The second one with the 12AX7 is going to be used for some warm grit (Essentially looking for a soft clip type of OD) and will be used as an alternate to the primary (Not stacked).

So the question I had was for anyone who has done any tube rolling...Wanted to see what your thoughts were on alternative tubes....Any significant differences? Any suggestions for what I am trying to achieve?

I put matched and microphonic tested 12AU7 JJ's from tubedepot.com (great site and lucky for me, local)
in both my UA and finally. DI. I was not digging the high gain or limited volume range before overdrive distortion that I was getting with the stock 12AX7's. I like the even harmonics and warmth of tubes and the 12AU's were the ticket. The AU improved the sound and range of the tone stack in my UA and I can get excellent volume and gain pre overdrive, which sounds more controlled. The AU also improved the finally DI and gives me more useable volume range without distortion.
The 12AU7 has the lowest gain of the 12A family - 12AX 1st, 12AT 2nd and then 12AU last.
A lot of Hi-Fi tube preamps use AU's as does my Hagerman Tube Compressor and that tube seems to be working best for me.
Also, the JJ's are excellent quality and very consistent tubes overall.
The Chinese made tubes, that I've tried, sounded good but were microphonic in live high volume situations and I've had some bad Mullard's too (the currents ones, not NOS) they just seem to have poor quality control, like half of the tube not working.
My 2 cents... Good Luck with the rolling!

 

[laklandplayer]

I don't really wanna open this can of worms, but if you are going between two of the same tube-type, there is effectively zero difference in tone. Tubes are not equalizers. As you already know, going from something like AX7 to AT7 will lower the gain staging and output, but even then, that doesn't actually change the tone, either.

Save yourself some money, and don't bother with tube rolling, unless one of the tubes in your pedals is dying.

Changing the tube changes the gain, which in effect gives you more range before distortion and that gives your tone more nuanced control regarding saturation before actual distortion. No, it doesn't affect the character of the sound but it does affect the tone somewhat but not drastically.

 

[DennyOnBass]

Pretty sure it's a daisy chain issue, but the only way to know for sure is to test it out! FWIW, I have that MXR Mini Iso-Brick and it's dead quiet. Mind you, as far as huge draw pedals, I'm only using one Sushi (UA), but I have the unit happily and quietly powering 9 pedals all told at the moment.

Yeah, I think I'll just grab the current splitter cable from Sweetwater the next time I make an order and see what the difference ends up being. I like that MXR mini brick, but really hate the big wall wart and the other side doesn't always hold well into the power supply. I've had two of them, same thing. I may need to see if I can find an alternate power supply.

 

[sloppy_phil]

@DennyOnBass Agreed, the adapter is a bit of a chunker, but I haven't had issues with the power cable popping out of the Brick itself. Perhaps I've just been lucky! I've got the unit velcro'd to the underside of my board (PT Metro 16, with added "feet" to angle and prop the board up), and have thus far only experienced good times.

 

[sloppy_phil]

@laklandplayer I could probably, in hindsight, have worded that a little better, but yes I know changing the gain stage will adjust how the amp behaves and responds, at least in terms of its output, and how quickly it will break up. I remain unconvinced that I'll see massive shifts in tone going from one brand of tube to another, but I'm also happy to just let it go at this point; not trying to get anybody upset!

 

[laklandplayer]

Pretty sure it's a daisy chain issue, but the only way to know for sure is to test it out! FWIW, I have that MXR Mini Iso-Brick and it's dead quiet. Mind you, as far as huge draw pedals, I'm only using one Sushi (UA), but I have the unit happily and quietly powering 9 pedals all told at the moment.

I bought a couple of these and they work great and eliminate noise, they seem to be out of stock at amazon but you might find them elsewhere. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G9S1QHW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[mrperkolator]

@laklandplayer I could probably, in hindsight, have worded that a little better, but yes I know changing the gain stage will adjust how the amp behaves and responds, at least in terms of its output, and how quickly it will break up. I remain unconvinced that I'll see massive shifts in tone going from one brand of tube to another, but I'm also happy to just let it go at this point; not trying to get anybody upset!

as someone who works in a product research field.... I can say that different companies often have different tolerances for their product. Sometimes not their fault... like if a product is well designed, but put together sloppily by the factory. Therefore, I'd expect some variance between brands, but also.... likely the same variance between a single brand if their tolerance isn't tight enough.

I'm not super educated on tubes, but I'd bet a higher variability would cause you to get slightly different gain stages. Much like the capacitors in tone pots can sound wildly different even if from the same brand -- especially if you go from a capacitor on the low end of the tolerance to the high limit of tolerance. Personally that's why if I mod controls on a bass, I go with tighter tolerance capacitors. That way I know I'm getting what I expect.

Edit: When I say "wildly" different I'm talking isolated bass with good headphones. Lots of nuance gets lost in a mix. but a .047 uf cap can sound almost like a .033 uf cap if the tolerance is high and the .047 is measuring out closer to .033. This value difference can shift the peak as you turn it up and down. Spectrographs can be fun...

 

[laklandplayer]

@laklandplayer I could probably, in hindsight, have worded that a little better, but yes I know changing the gain stage will adjust how the amp behaves and responds, at least in terms of its output, and how quickly it will breakthe up. I remain unconvinced that I'll see massive shifts in tone going from one brand of tube to another, but I'm also happy to just let it go at this point; not trying to get anybody upset!

You're cool... the tube in and of itself doesn't have "tone" but the way it behaves affects the overall sound.
If tubes are built to standard design specifications they should all sound pretty much the same and behave alike. I really think that gold pins and such are just hi-fi marketing hype, I've never seen a corroded tube pin.
I like the AU's lower gain, in this case, because it's not too hot, I have more range and I can control the volume and saturation before distortion much better.
I was almost ready to sell my UA until I did the tube swap, the 12AX was practically either on or off with very limited range before distortion. The 12AU totally changed how the pedal behaves and changed my mind about the UA.

 

[Sushi Box FX]

I'm not super educated on tubes, but I'd bet a higher variability would cause you to get slightly different gain stages. Much like the capacitors in tone pots can sound wildly different even if from the same brand -- especially if you go from a capacitor on the low end of the tolerance to the high limit of tolerance. Personally that's why if I mod controls on a bass, I go with tighter tolerance capacitors. That way I know I'm getting what I expect.

To that point (then I promise I'll drop the subject), my old tube tester basically only measured if a tube was good or not, and had a more or less meaningful scale of "how good" it was, it didn't have any other useful data points. My new tube tester is computer-driven and has a lot more data points and measurements, one of which is the actual amplification factor of the tube. I have a modest supply of various NOS and vintage tubes, but the most common modern production 12AX7 I have around are JJ/Tesla (my typical choice) and Psvane (my backup for a couple months when JJ supply was low). So for curiosity's sake I took a small sample set (4) of each and measured the amplification factor, and I was surprised at the results.

12AX7 expected nominal amplification factor (µ) is 100 for each triode, of which there are two per tube.

JJ/Tesla
#1 - 97/96
#2 - 102/98
#3 - 95/97
#4 - 99/100

Psvane
#1 - 87/82
#2 - 84/83
#3 - 64/61
#4 - 78/68

These were all brand new tubes that otherwise tested "good" and passed signal as expected in a test circuit, but the amount of gain available on the Psvane 12AX7 was way lower and way more spread out than I expected. This isn't necessarily a bad thing and there are instances where a lower gain tube may give a more desirable sound, but I was surprised at the difference. JJ/Tesla on the other hand was very consistent and always within 5% of the nominal value on the datasheet.