That's ABSOLUTELY not true. There are a ton of differences between tubes. Just to site a few:
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The Sushi Box FX Secret Society
- Thread starter kranahan
- Start date
That's ABSOLUTELY not true. There are a ton of differences between tubes. Just to site a few:
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Respectfully disagreed. I've got a Slampegg - there's a distinct tonal difference between the stock JJ 12AX7, the TungSol 12AT7, and the old HP 12AT7 that I've been experimenting with in there. The Tung Sol is the winner by a mile.
I respectfully submit that if someone changed 12ax7 tubes and the listener was BLIND (= listening only with ears) and didn't know what tube he was listening to, it'd all be a sonic blur with differences no more significant than bugs on the proverbial windshield. I have a box full of recent & vintage 12ax7, 12at7, 12au7 tubes and have messed with 'em a lot, in numerous heads/preamps, and have heard only minimal, subtle (even equivocal) differences between them. I realize there is an entire industry around/cultish belief in the different sounds of different tubes, but IMHO (again, respectfully), to the truly BLIND listener, the differences are marginal at best. If someone replaced one of the tubes in one of my Sushi pedals with another of the same type, there's absolutely no way I'd power it up afterward ........... and gasp in disbelief because my tone had changed. I'm not saying there are no differences, just that those differences are too subtle to distinguish with only one's ears.
It reminds me of vodka. I told a couple of friends who are very particular about their vodka brands that there was effectively no taste difference between double distilled vodkas, and that by definition (because there is an accepted standard), vodka is distilled to the point where the impurities (which are what actually impart flavour) have been removed, effectively leaving nothing but ethyl alcohol. They swore up and down that their Grey Goose/Chopin/potato vodka, etc. was far more delicious than the local bargain brand.........I offered to wager that in a blind test they could not reliably distinguish between their 2 favourite boutique vodkas and 2 cheapo (but double distilled) local brands.....they declined.....so I then suggested we do the test with no money on the line.......they had no rational reason not to try that, and unsurprisingly, none of us could distinguish between any of the 4 vodkas when blinded. Psychoacoustics are a thing, and tone chasing is the most fertile ground for 'em
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There are big differences between tube TYPES (12ax7 vs at7), but if you listened to the 2 at7 tubes without knowing which was which, the game might change. Unless you do the blind test, you really can't know. That said, what matters is that you have found a sound that pleases you.
A fun little primer for vodka lovers (note-does not apply to almost any other booze) that will save a lot of money, shattered "beliefs" notwithstanding:
I've got a few different tube types in a few different boxes as well (style, vintage, etc...). When I objectively consider the way I play them, in a band mix, I would be hard pressed to tell a difference between them. The only thing truly different is how much the gain knob is cranked before the breakup starts to occur. I prefer the 12AU7 in one of my Space Heaters because it really works nicely and I have lots of wiggle room with the gain knob to get the sound I want, but if I swapped out a 12AX7 and never looked at the gain knob I probably wouldn't know the difference in the context of a band mix.
Do I still love my vintage 12AU7 and 12AT7? Of course... they sound great. If I were to solo test them, in my music room, I might be able to tell the difference without looking at the knobs.
I too agree with a lot of what's been said above. The Finally also makes an excellent tool to "listen" to different preamp tubes by just running a guitar or bass straight into the Finally, and the Finally straight into a clean amp and playing solo.
That said, after going though my little collection of new and vintage tubes, I found that the biggest difference (as several here have already said) is when comparing different types (AX versus AU, for example) and 97% of that difference is simply how it effects gainstaging, not "tone".
Comparing different brand tubes of the same type (like vintage RCA 12AX7 versus modern Russian 12AX7) there are subtle sonic differences, but so minor that in my opinion they mostly are just "cork sniffing", easily compensated with a little EQ, and absolutely are not detectable in a mix.
The biggest difference I could hear between any of them was actually with the JJ 12AX7 versus any other 12AX7... on a guitar, the JJ seemed to roll off a noticeable bit of treble (about 2-3 notches worth on a Fender tonestack) but with a bass the treble-loss effect was much less noticeable (only about half to one notch worth to my ear).
Jack
That said, after going though my little collection of new and vintage tubes, I found that the biggest difference (as several here have already said) is when comparing different types (AX versus AU, for example) and 97% of that difference is simply how it effects gainstaging, not "tone".
Comparing different brand tubes of the same type (like vintage RCA 12AX7 versus modern Russian 12AX7) there are subtle sonic differences, but so minor that in my opinion they mostly are just "cork sniffing", easily compensated with a little EQ, and absolutely are not detectable in a mix.
The biggest difference I could hear between any of them was actually with the JJ 12AX7 versus any other 12AX7... on a guitar, the JJ seemed to roll off a noticeable bit of treble (about 2-3 notches worth on a Fender tonestack) but with a bass the treble-loss effect was much less noticeable (only about half to one notch worth to my ear).
Jack
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- Apr 3, 2003
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Definitely some truth, there, and the flavor/aroma/color (or lack thereof) should all be the same between various vodkas. However, there are some other discernable variables, most notably mouth feel. I won a bet at a convention a few years back by being able to correctly identify various vodka martinis. The bartender prepared six different dry vodka martinis using six different brands of vodka, but otherwise measured/prepared the same way (no olives for this test). I was told what each one was and sampled them all with no blindfold. My compatriots then blindfolded me and mixed up the drinks. I was able to identify them, 6 out of 6. They then switched them up again, and I went 6 for 6, again. It was the mouth feel which provided the distinction. Now, it's possible that the bartender used slightly different amounts of vermouth in each one (he said he didn't), but I've done similar A/B comparisons of just straight vodka, and you can often tell a difference in mouth feel.
My takeaway is that for mixed drinks, when mouth feel doesn't normally matter, don't pay for top shelf vodka. But in a dry vodka martini, I do enjoy some vodkas more than others. YMMV, of course.
[QUOTE="tombowlus, post: 27454814, member: 31302"
My takeaway is that for mixed drinks, when mouth feel doesn't normally matter, don't pay for top shelf vodka. But in a dry vodka martini, I do enjoy some vodkas more than others. YMMV, of course.[/QUOTE]
That is remarkable. How much was the bet? I would have happily laid down a Ben Franklin against you, and apparently would have been poorer for it I will revisit the vodka test with mouth feel in mind . I am an avid martin man, but much prefer gin. For our vodka test we went with 2 glasses for each vodka, one straight and one with 1/2 club soda.
My takeaway is that for mixed drinks, when mouth feel doesn't normally matter, don't pay for top shelf vodka. But in a dry vodka martini, I do enjoy some vodkas more than others. YMMV, of course.[/QUOTE]
That is remarkable. How much was the bet? I would have happily laid down a Ben Franklin against you, and apparently would have been poorer for it
I will revisit the vodka test with mouth feel in mind . I am an avid martin man, but much prefer gin. For our vodka test we went with 2 glasses for each vodka, one straight and one with 1/2 club soda.
imho a 5751 in the UA definitely changes the bass response. When you can A/B 2 of the same pedals by turning one off and the other on it is more apparent than flipping tubes in 1 pedal.
Tube rolling can offer interesting variations in amps, hi-fi components and tube pedals. There are variants that do offer significant changes in tone for example the JJ ECC83MG or 12AX7MG
that offers an enhanced and lowered mid, crystalline highs and greater headroom. Using this tube in a UA is great for fretless bass or a warm classic jazz guitar tone. Certain NOS tubes offer unique characteristics as well.
I am not a Vodka expert but to my tasting there are minor variation in taste and odor depending on the ethanol source; wheat, potato, corn or other no matter what the Vodka Law states. Leanderthal Distilling a local distiller of Vodka and other spirits introduced me to the nuances.
Every time I swap a tube I hear a HUGE difference. I only swap when a tube fails.
I know for a time I had the VTDI as my main pre and sound. It sounded good, but not like a Sushi pre into a Finally. To me, the improvement in tone is huge.
I respectfully submit that if someone changed 12ax7 tubes and the listener was BLIND (= listening only with ears) and didn't know what tube he was listening to, it'd all be a sonic blur with differences no more significant than bugs on the proverbial windshield. I have a box full of recent & vintage 12ax7, 12at7, 12au7 tubes and have messed with 'em a lot, in numerous heads/preamps, and have heard only minimal, subtle (even equivocal) differences between them. I realize there is an entire industry around/cultish belief in the different sounds of different tubes, but IMHO (again, respectfully), to the truly BLIND listener, the differences are marginal at best. If someone replaced one of the tubes in one of my Sushi pedals with another of the same type, there's absolutely no way I'd power it up afterward ........... and gasp in disbelief because my tone had changed. I'm not saying there are no differences, just that those differences are too subtle to distinguish with only one's ears.
It reminds me of vodka. I told a couple of friends who are very particular about their vodka brands that there was effectively no taste difference between double distilled vodkas, and that by definition (because there is an accepted standard), vodka is distilled to the point where the impurities (which are what actually impart flavour) have been removed, effectively leaving nothing but ethyl alcohol. They swore up and down that their Grey Goose/Chopin/potato vodka, etc. was far more delicious than the local bargain brand.........I offered to wager that in a blind test they could not reliably distinguish between their 2 favourite boutique vodkas and 2 cheapo (but double distilled) local brands.....they declined.....so I then suggested we do the test with no money on the line.......they had no rational reason not to try that, and unsurprisingly, none of us could distinguish between any of the 4 vodkas when blinded. Psychoacoustics are a thing, and tone chasing is the most fertile ground for 'em
I’m using $1800 IEM buds. I can assure you that I can hear the difference. But, to your point…the average listener in the crowd almost certainly can’t tell even when distortion is turned on.
Since we’re off topic a bit, that vodka from Costco tastes like lighter fluid. If one can’t tell the difference between that and any decent vodka, your taste buds may be damaged beyond repair.
I'd argue, and maybe it's just semantics that we're getting caught up in now, that those aren't the same tube types being swapped. Going from a standard 12AX7 to a 12AX7MG is reducing the level of gain from one tube to the other, which will for sure impact the sound. Different gain stages will definitely yield different response from an amp, and in my opinion, the main reason to roll tubes (besides mechanical failure)!
My suggestion was that the differences between a JJ 12AX7 vs. Tung-Sol 12AX7 vs. Sovtek 12AX7 etc, which all have identical gain levels, are sufficiently minimal (in my own opinion, I suppose, since I seem to be firmly in the minority atm) as to be largely negligible in bass and guitar amplifiers/preamps. Especially in the context of a mix! Particularly in a live mix, there was no chance of me hearing any differences from tube swaps, but even in the studio, any differences should get swallowed up by all the other instruments. Perhaps there are some subtle things one can notice with a solo'd bass, but I'd love to hear sound evidence of those differences carrying over into a musical context.
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- Feb 12, 2006
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Some of the perception of how different tubes of the same type might sound can also be traced back to the type of circuit that it is used in. Different circuits can minimize tube differences and some can exaggerate them. In general, the differences on an average common cathode circuit is fairly small, and will change a little as the tube ages. This is not automatically bad or good, just a property of tubes.
