Thoughts on Keith Moon

[JimK]

Believe I read or heard an interview with Neil Peart of Rush, and he mentioned his love of Keith Moons playing.

Peart woulda been a prefect replacement for Moon.
In the Rush docu (on Netflix), Peart mentions he was a big fan of the group...Lee/Lifeson said Peart's audition was a cross between Moon & Bonham, etc.

Moon's 'style'? Some would call it "energy playing"...some knock Free Jazz drumming as "energy playing", too.

The Who, at least IMO, came down a few notches without Moon.

A guy I laud around here whenever I get the chance...Cornell Rochester.
How about playing with this guy? "1" is nowhere to-be-found.

 

[JimK]

Interesting to ponder this, and as I do, I think you are 100% correct.

How close, though.
Moon & Entwistle were set to leave The Who...to start a band with Jimmy Page & ___________. Damn, drawing a blank. Was the 4th member Robert Plant?

Also, IIRC, Roger Daltrey has said Moon woulda left The Who, even at their heights, to join The Beach Boys. He loved that stuff!

 

[Winterglo]

Keith was right up there with Bonham & Ginger Baker.

I was surprised to recently find out that Baker is still alive. Considering the life he's led, it was a shock to me.

There is a documentary about Baker. He has a bit of an anger issue.

 

[electracoyote]

I disagree, he falls off meter constantly. Listen to any of their live stuff, you'll hear him drop a fill or two per song at minimum. John Entwistle wouldn't look quite so pissed if Moonie was on tempo.

Daltrey isn't the best judge of that sort of thing. It's like listening to Manzarek talk about Jim Morrison. When the legend keeps your grandkids fed, you say whatever makes the legend more legendary.

You may have a point re: the live stuff. I haven't listened to a lot of live Who, and knowing what we know about this kind of personality, the road is a playground that takes a serious toll on musicianship for some.

I guess I was referring more to the studio recordings, where even overindulgent types tend to pull it together long enough to record something worthy for posterity.

I can count a solid beat when I listen to Keith Moon play on the studio recordings. I'm not pointing fingers, but I know some musicians who would be totally thrown by his wildness, unpredictability, and distracting counter-beat moments. But I never have a problem tapping my foot along with him. In a strange way, it's like listening to a jazz drummer, like a Dave Weckl type, but in the pop/rock genre, on the verge of losing control, like they are playing while tripping down a flight of stairs, but somehow miraculously keeping time.

And I think you unfairly discount the opinion of The Who's lead singer. I doubt he was making nice to be PC. Lead singers depend on a solid back beat so they can syncopate their vocal delivery. I believe that Daltrey heard what I hear when Moon laid down a drum track in studio and was sincere with his "on the button" comment.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

There is a documentary about Baker. He has a bit of an anger issue.

"Beware of Mr. Baker" is pretty good. He hits the guy doing the documentary, when he finds out he intends to go talk to all his past acquaintances.

 

[Winterglo]

"Beware of Mr. Baker" is pretty good. He hits the guy doing the documentary, when he finds out he intends to go talk to all his past acquaintances.

I liked the documentary. I knew he was a good drummer, but after seeing that, despite everything, he is a great drummer. And he knows it

 

[Winterglo]

Paul McCartney used to mention Moon all the time as his favorite drummer, after Ringo of course.

 

[MarkM13]

I suspect you are right, and despite my grumbles about Bonham's tendency to speed up before bigger fills, and his occasional squeaky pedal, mostly it's on the button, and the short fills are generally pretty tight, and from cross-talk the base tracks often seem to be live, at least until LZ IV.

There are a lot of very good drummers in non-rock genres, too, although I am not sure which genre you put Bill Bruford in.

You just nailed one of my all time favorite drummers. He transcends genres. My favorite quote from him is, "I was always too rock for the jazz guys and too jazz for the rock guys"! Man, that sums up my style. Maybe that's why I'm playing bass. Actually still drumming in a killer Latin band but, you get the point.

 

[Fat Steve]

Though the following quote is directed towards "Dr. Gonzo" in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, it's also perfectly applicable when discussing Keith Moon:

"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."

 

[tbz]

I guess I was referring more to the studio recordings, where even overindulgent types tend to pull it together long enough to record something worthy for posterity.

Um, or the producers that are paid a *huge* salary worked around the problems of said overindulgent types in order to make a sale-able product.

Have you ever listened to The Soft Parade by The Doors? IIRC it took a *lot* of takes to get a finished vocal out of Morrison. I swear you can practically hear him starting to heave at the end of some lines in that song, if you listen closely. He wasn't in good shape...

 

[tbz]

If he was out of time coming out of fills live as in the clip earlier I could see that being quite stressful for Entwistle as suddenly the entire base of the song is in doubt and needs to be resolved. From the clip, though, it seems Moon was out coming out, but did correct quickly. Whether that is self correction or hearing the bass I don't know. I would imagine the latter would depend a lot on being able to hear the bass live in those days.

He had good nights and he had bad nights.

Since he was personally undisciplined, had an uncontrolled chemical intake, did not eat well, and generally took terrible care of himself the bad outnumbered the good, as time wore on.

 

[tbz]

And I think you unfairly discount the opinion of The Who's lead singer. I doubt he was making nice to be PC.

If Daltrey came out and said "Yeah, well, he was a kid that had terrible ADD, took tons of speed pills when we started, then kinda degenerated until he died of an overdose of anti-alcoholism pills after not *quite* being able to play for several years" it wouldn't sell Who shirts.

It's not about PC. It's about profiting from your work.

 

[the yeti]

My immediate impression of Keith Moon is, even though he was wildly unpredictable in his choices of licks and fills, he could still have amazing tempo and meter. Many of those classic 60's Who hits were every bit as radio friendly and tempo-conscious as anything else on AM radio, which contributed to their popularity with mainstream audiences at the time, yet nobody drummed with the same sense of adventure and abandon. I've yet to hear another pop/rock drummer who could be so unconventional with such impeccable meter. Bizarre, really.

what about travis barker?

 

[paparoof]

He was a great drummer for the Who... Personally, I Thought he overplayed, didn't really listen to Entwistle as much as Entwistle listened to him, and generally sucked for my taste... But, was perfect for the Who, and I like the Who as a band. I was told by a few notable people that the Who "knew how to stay out of his way..." But, after 20 years of playing with English drummers I came to the conclusion I don't like playing with English drummers generally. They tend to drag, overplay and react to whoever is playing the melody. NOT THE BASSIST. I think that's why guitarists like them so much. Although in Rock (John Bonham), that backbeat made things feel BIG, or heavy, which worked for that genre... Depending on who else was in the band... There are exceptions like Dave Early (God rest his soul), or Ashley Soan (Scottish though..) that I've worked with... But 9 1/2 times out of 10, I hated it. I love Richard Bailey's playing, but in the studio, I knew that he wasn't going to compromise anything in the groove, so I did... As I told someone once "(insert name) doesn't play with you, he enforces his feel on you and you have to bend to his feel. Good or bad..." I think a sympathetic English drummer is more valuable than Platinum, and just as hard to find these days.

If you like an AMERICAN groove or R&B, then you probably won't enjoy having an English cat behind you generally speaking of course...

Moon was a trailblazer definitely, but I believe one or two drummers with that style is enough...

But that's my opinion and experience...

D.

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion so please understand it's just curiosity that demands I ask you:

Do you feel the same way about Charlie Watts?

How about Nick Mason?

 

[JMacBass65]

'SET FLAME THROWERS TO CHARRRR!!!"

I am a very new bassist but, have been drumming 35 years in all sorts of situations. Honestly, I've never been able to stand Moon's or Baker's drumming styles. The constant barrage of fills, complete lack of groove, tunes always rushing, other parts being trampled...just doesn't work for me.
IMO the most influential drummer of that era was Bonham. He had it all: groove, fills & tons of technique. Think of the groove for "Fool In The Rain" If you think Pocarro listened to that a few times before tracking Rosanna you'd be spot on.
It's not that I don't like busy styles. I grew up on Neil Peart, Billy Cobham, Lenny White, Terry Bozzio etc. But, it takes serious technique to be able to pull that style off off and not trample the tune and or destroy it's groove. Moon and Baker just don't/didn't have it.

FWIW, the band I'm currently playing bass in does "Sunshine Of Your Love" The drummer does a real good job of covering the original part. And...I can't stand it. There's nothing to lock into, no kick pattern or snare backbeats/accents. I just listen to the guitar and get through it.

I basically agree with this.

One note though - you might not be able to blame Baker for Sunshine of Your Love.

The Tom Dowd documentary "Tom Dowd and the Language of Music" reveals that Dowd (the engineer and/or producer on the album) suggested that drum pattern in the verse. They had been working on the tune for a while, and nothing was jelling. He suggested an native american drum beat thing, and off they went.

Excellent documentary if you have not seen it.

 

[CDT]

I love ginger...I still think moon was a badass..

 

[JMacBass65]

He was a great drummer for the Who... Personally, I Thought he overplayed, didn't really listen to Entwistle as much as Entwistle listened to him, and generally sucked for my taste... But, was perfect for the Who, and I like the Who as a band. I was told by a few notable people that the Who "knew how to stay out of his way..." But, after 20 years of playing with English drummers I came to the conclusion I don't like playing with English drummers generally. They tend to drag, overplay and react to whoever is playing the melody. NOT THE BASSIST. I think that's why guitarists like them so much. Although in Rock (John Bonham), that backbeat made things feel BIG, or heavy, which worked for that genre... Depending on who else was in the band... There are exceptions like Dave Early (God rest his soul), or Ashley Soan (Scottish though..) that I've worked with... But 9 1/2 times out of 10, I hated it. I love Richard Bailey's playing, but in the studio, I knew that he wasn't going to compromise anything in the groove, so I did... As I told someone once "(insert name) doesn't play with you, he enforces his feel on you and you have to bend to his feel. Good or bad..." I think a sympathetic English drummer is more valuable than Platinum, and just as hard to find these days.

If you like an AMERICAN groove or R&B, then you probably won't enjoy having an English cat behind you generally speaking of course...

Moon was a trailblazer definitely, but I believe one or two drummers with that style is enough...

But that's my opinion and experience...

D.

Interesting. Reminds me of a question/thought I have had for a while. Is there a particularly "british" way of playing bass.

I think there is - but don't know enough to describe what I am hearing, or think i am hearing.

If it's worthy of a new thread - lemme know and I'll start one.

 

[DrayMiles]

Interesting. Reminds me of a question/thought I have had for a while. Is there a particularly "british" way of playing bass.

I think there is - but don't know enough to describe what I am hearing, or think i am hearing.

If it's worthy of a new thread - lemme know and I'll start one.

I will say this...

I saw a guy playing in exactly the same style as Entwistle... It was fascinating to watch. I think there is a difference.. Primarily that they fight too hard to do things in an "authentic" American way. Whether it's the gear or whatever... Then you'll get cats who are pro Brit, and do things their way, which might have a slight taste of blues or whatnot ... IMO... I used to see Joe Hubbard and Philpott(he was at BIT in Wapping then...) and there were a few conversations...

A new thread might be interesting regarding that...

 

[DrayMiles]

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion so please understand it's just curiosity that demands I ask you:

Do you feel the same way about Charlie Watts?

How about Nick Mason?

Hard to believe, but like Moon and the other guys you mentioned... I think their quirks created innovation. Technique can sometimes "sterilize" a player if they don't eventually find themselves. To find a band that you fit into and accentuate, to the point where you are irreplaceable, wow... Those bands make buying tickets worthwhile IMO.

Technically, I don't see anything with those guys playing that's incredible (but being impressive technically is boring too, I preferred Yngwie in Alcatrazz)... except they do what they do as individuals well. But, they aren't cookie cutter, versatile players, they have a style that, IMO, has found a niche and a market. You can't fault it one bit...

If we all went for the same thing we'd all be bored senseless...

And thanks for letting me have that opinion... with clarification!

Cheers,

D.

But, then I may be nuts, because I liked early Peter Criss too... A prime example of non-technique... but he had a funkiness I liked...

 

[brianrost]

Technically, Moon was a total mess.

In terms of raw excitement, a master.

For rock and roll excitement is way more important.

The Who never sounded right after Moon died.