Thoughts on Keith Moon

[tbz]

I agree. I always heard the tempo in his playing, even the stuff not recorded with a click.

Listen to Daltrey in the video below at the 1:58 minute mark.

"It sounds like it's completely random, but it's not, it's completely on the button all the time."

I disagree, he falls off meter constantly. Listen to any of their live stuff, you'll hear him drop a fill or two per song at minimum. John Entwistle wouldn't look quite so pissed if Moonie was on tempo.

Daltrey isn't the best judge of that sort of thing. It's like listening to Manzarek talk about Jim Morrison. When the legend keeps your grandkids fed, you say whatever makes the legend more legendary.

 

[MarkM13]

'SET FLAME THROWERS TO CHARRRR!!!"

I am a very new bassist but, have been drumming 35 years in all sorts of situations. Honestly, I've never been able to stand Moon's or Baker's drumming styles. The constant barrage of fills, complete lack of groove, tunes always rushing, other parts being trampled...just doesn't work for me.
IMO the most influential drummer of that era was Bonham. He had it all: groove, fills & tons of technique. Think of the groove for "Fool In The Rain" If you think Pocarro listened to that a few times before tracking Rosanna you'd be spot on.
It's not that I don't like busy styles. I grew up on Neil Peart, Billy Cobham, Lenny White, Terry Bozzio etc. But, it takes serious technique to be able to pull that style off off and not trample the tune and or destroy it's groove. Moon and Baker just don't/didn't have it.

FWIW, the band I'm currently playing bass in does "Sunshine Of Your Love" The drummer does a real good job of covering the original part. And...I can't stand it. There's nothing to lock into, no kick pattern or snare backbeats/accents. I just listen to the guitar and get through it.

 

[GregC]

Also note that they replaced Moon with a very straight drummer.

Which they later realized was a mistake. Zak Starkey has been with the Who for 21 years now (obviously far longer than Jones or Phillips) and he's by far the most Moon-like drummer they've had.

 

[GregC]

I'd postulate that the furrowed brow and slight frown Entwistle displays on literally every second of live Who footage, when Moon was alive, dispute that statement.

In his solo stuff he used considerably less busy drummers.

I'd be shocked if anyone can truly discern a difference in Entwistle's onstage facial expressions pre- and post-Moon.

As for his solo album drummer choices, not sure that's relevant since it's obviously different material.

 

[tbz]

I'd be shocked if anyone can truly discern a difference in Entwistle's onstage facial expressions pre- and post-Moon.

As for his solo album drummer choices, not sure that's relevant since it's obviously different material.

You can. Pre-Moon, more angry, more intense. Post-Moon, less angry, less intense.

It's clear he's concentrating very hard to make sure he's riding the pulse properly when he plays with Moon. Drummers like that are a complete pain to play with.

I'll pull up citations if you need to see them, but he actually smiles mid-song post Moon, occasionally.

Solo drummer choices are relevant. If he liked playing with someone that busy, he would have hired someone that busy. Mitch Mitchell wasn't doing much post Hendrix, neither was Michael Giles from Crimson, post Crimson.

 

[hintz]

you guys gotta listen to this clip from the howard stern show from the day after john entwistle died... wow

After reading this thread I went on YouTube and found this Howard Stern thing last night, kinda ticked me off but then I remind myself that that was his thing no matter how distasteful he gets, still kinda funny though LOL

I'd postulate that the furrowed brow and slight frown Entwistle displays on literally every second of live Who footage, when Moon was alive, dispute that statement.

In his solo stuff he used considerably less busy drummers.

If he was that bad dont you think they would've replaced him?? I can't imagine those songs without Keith on them and they must've seen/heard *something* in his playing that got him in the band in the 1st place and kept him in without them firing him!! After watching a documentary last nite they did like his "mod" image in the group, but as they progressed musically they *could've* gotten someone else but they chose not to!! As many others, I believe they all complemented each other, but that's just my opinion!! Besides, how often did you see John entwistle smiling *ever* even live with his solo gigs??

 

[tbz]

After reading this thread I went on YouTube and found this Howard Stern thing last night, kinda ticked me off but then I remind myself that that was his thing no matter how distasteful he gets, still kinda funny though LOL


If he was that bad dont you think they would've replaced him?? I can't imagine those songs without Keith on them and they must've seen/heard *something* in his playing that got him in the band in the 1st place and kept him in without them firing him!! After watching a documentary last nite they did like his "mod" image in the group, but as they progressed musically they *could've* gotten someone else but they chose not to!! As many others, I believe they all complemented each other, but that's just my opinion!! Besides, how often did you see John entwistle smiling *ever* even live with his solo gigs??

Moon's drums were the lead instrument in the Who, most of the time. When they replaced him with a less busy drummer the songs were substantially less exciting and busy, which IIRC is why the Who added a *lot* of musicians to the band in their 1980s lineups.

If I had to guess, they had a choice, pre-fame, of going with a guy that sucked and couldn't keep time, or Moonie who overplayed in an exciting way, but couldn't quite be bothered to keep time.

Once the band was established they didn't really have a reason to fire him. They knew how to work around him in the studio, he was awesome when he was actually "on" live, and was apparently really fun to hang out with.

 

[hintz]

Not to mention the fact Keith basically needed a babysitter on the road for all his crazy drug/alcohol induced antics??!! They still kept him until his early demise!!

 

[tbz]

Not to mention the fact Keith basically needed a babysitter on the road for all his crazy drug/alcohol induced antics??!! They still kept him until his early demise!!

Have you read the Bio his babysitter wrote? It's priceless.

http://www.amazon.com/Full-Moon-Amazing-Rock-Keith-ebook/dp/B008KM20LC/

 

[hintz]

Moon's drums were the lead instrument in the Who, most of the time. When they replaced him with a less busy drummer the songs were substantially less exciting and busy, which IIRC is why the Who added a *lot* of musicians to the band in their 1980s lineups.

If I had to guess, they had a choice, pre-fame, of going with a guy that sucked and couldn't keep time, or Moonie who overplayed in an exciting way, but couldn't quite be bothered to keep time.

Once the band was established they didn't really have a reason to fire him. They knew how to work around him in the studio, he was awesome when he was actually "on" live, and was apparently really fun to hang out with.

I did acknowledge that he did overplay in my first post on this, and ill add that its tough playing with a guy like that...

 

[hintz]

Have you read the Bio his babysitter wrote? It's priceless.

http://www.amazon.com/Full-Moon-Amazing-Rock-Keith-ebook/dp/B008KM20LC/

I bet that's an interesting read!! LOL...

I dunno, I just gotta say that I crack up everytime I see footage of him play, he just entertaining as hell much more than many "better" drummers!! I just dig it I guess!

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Oh dear. Might have been true back then, but Clive Bunker did have too many idiosyncrasises too (later on) that Ian Anderson had to record SOME things on the drums himself. Later down the years, Clive rehearsed and auditioned for Camel, but didn't get the gig due to "years of alternative playing". I e he found it hard to learn new stuff. Camel may have been prog, but not incredibly hard to play. Most of their drumming is backbone "regular" things.

Anderson recorded some electric guitar and bass too, and the latter during the Glascock years even before Glascock was ill and Glascock was definitely a better player, so it might be as much about Anderson's vision of a piece as Bunker, but I am just relaying what Bonham said, to show that those at the time may have had different opinions to what seems the case 40 years later. Still, I think Barlow was the definitive Tull drummer. Great sound, style, very musical.

 

[MR PC]

I'm with Ginger Baker's assessment of Moon's playing..."he couldn't swing his way out of a bag of sh**" Outside of the great songs, the Who was more about the histrionics associated with the addiction to booze, powder, and anger at being destroyed by the nazi airforce really. Can't blame 'em. Close your eyes and a lot of it is powder puff compared to the real deal of real rock and roll, which is an American phenomenon.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Precisely—that was the whole point. Moonie was the right drummer in the right band at the right time.

Personally, the music of Thee'Oo got me through high school and the music they made after he died failed to grab me by the short 'n' curlies (fortunately the energy of punk rock filled the void). I still can't think of The Who as The Who without Keith and John.

Without the flamboyance of Moon it wouldn't have worked as a foil for the others.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Did he ever use a hihat? I don't even remember him ever having one.

There's one in the clip posted earlier in the thread, and he's using his foot on it, just not hitting it as far as I can tell.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I'd postulate that the furrowed brow and slight frown Entwistle displays on literally every second of live Who footage, when Moon was alive, dispute that statement.

In his solo stuff he used considerably less busy drummers.

If he was out of time coming out of fills live as in the clip earlier I could see that being quite stressful for Entwistle as suddenly the entire base of the song is in doubt and needs to be resolved. From the clip, though, it seems Moon was out coming out, but did correct quickly. Whether that is self correction or hearing the bass I don't know. I would imagine the latter would depend a lot on being able to hear the bass live in those days.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

But I don't get why people are slagging his whole contribution.

I'm certainly not, just grumbling about that particular clip, which is a bit unfair without listening to a lot more live clips. On the record things seem pretty solid although I will have to go and listen again later...

 

[-Asdfgh-]

IMO the most influential drummer of that era was Bonham.

I suspect you are right, and despite my grumbles about Bonham's tendency to speed up before bigger fills, and his occasional squeaky pedal, mostly it's on the button, and the short fills are generally pretty tight, and from cross-talk the base tracks often seem to be live, at least until LZ IV.

There are a lot of very good drummers in non-rock genres, too, although I am not sure which genre you put Bill Bruford in.

 

[socialleper]

Thoughts: I'm pretty sure he was a drummer and he's dead.
Beyond that? Nada.

 

[Mantis Tobaggan]

You know, while Moon's style isn't my favorite, I respect him. Technical perfection is not rock n'roll. Rock is loose and drug fueled with two fingers up to the establishment.