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Thunderbird Club

Thanks. The Breakbeats kit is great...the newer ones are much better than the older ones too. Change the heads and make a few mods to the snare, and it's killer. We use the Glyn Johns three-mic technique, and we're happy
I really like the one I have. It's a 2013, so I don't know whether that's a new or old one. I put different heads on it, and that transformed it. The snare sounds a whole lot better now that I put cast rims on it as well. It's the perfect kit for a quick in/quick out gig, because the drums, less snare, all fit into a single tom case that I found. So, the kit travels in one bag, the snare in a second, the cymbals in a third, and the hardware in a fourth. It all fits easily on a single convertible hand truck. It even works fairly well tuned down a bit, although mine is generally tuned up more like a jazz kit than a rock kit. It is far better than it has any right to be.
 
Ok you two - the engineer in me loves to learn and better understand why things work the way they do. So as opposed to all of us babbling on about Fries vs chips vs crisps how about you two explain in laymans terms what you're talking about here.:thumbsup:

Seriously, in all respect, I find the discussion interesting but am having difficulty following the jargon and understanding the practical application or what to do with the information. Please enlighten me (and possibly other club members), it's gotta be more educational and applicable to Thunderbirds than deep frying butter.;)

So, self-resonance is something I've not heard of before - can you say more about it? Can I hear it? Is it even possible for Pickup inductance (Is that the strings vibrating thru a magnetic field?) to be in Series vs parallel with the Pickup capacitance (I didn't know pickups had capacitance, tell me more).

And how do we get Pickup inductance in parallel with the tone control capacitor? I know we can wire a set of pickups in Series or parallel, is that what you're talking about?

Resonance is more of a mechanical engineering topic so I'm pretty well versed on that at least. I assume you point on that one is the body/neck wood and construction method impact on dampening or accentuating certain frequencies. Like woof tones or dead spots or tendencies to be darker or brighter in tone or increasing/decreasing attack or sustain. Is that correct?

I'm aware of different resistance values for different pickups but I'm never able to recall the attributes of low resistance pups vs high resistance pups. How will each sound relative to the other?

What is "Lower L"? It appears to push the pup resonance up, can you explain what pup resonance is? Is that something that makes an audible difference in the pup?

What is "Lower C"? Is that the winding count around the coils? If so, what does less windings do vs more windings? I think wire size can also have an impact, but I'm not sure what the impact is.

I wasn't aware magnet permeability (density?) had any impact on the pup outside of weaker vs stronger magnets. I have heard there are sound differences between Ceramic vs Alnico magnets but I don't recall what the differences are or if there are other types of magnets used in normal pups.

Inquiring minds want to know. :thumbsup:
as beautifully answered by @LetItGrowTone and @PillO, electrical resonance can indeed be modeled mechanically as well (everything in life has a resonant frequency). other mechanical examples could include a flywheel or a pendulum. electrically, a capacitor C connected with an inductor L (L is used because H is used for magnetic field strength much as j is used to denote an imaginary number because i is used to denote current) in either series or parallel will create a circuit that will resonate at some frequency. because guitar/bass pickups are generally wired in parallel i'll stick to this configuration also referred to as a "tank" or "antiresonant" ckt.
upload_2020-1-29_9-9-14.png



at DC an inductor is an electrical short and a capacitor is an electrical open.
at AC on the other hand, inductors and capacitors (unlike resistors which will have the same value independent of frequency) start to exhibit a resistive (there is no real Ohmic loss as in resistors but that gets a little more involved) effect called Reactance (X) which as in resistors, is also measured in Ohms. For capacitors it's noted Xc (Capacitive Reactance = 1/2Pi fC), for inductors Xl (Inductive Reactance = 2Pi fL) where f denotes frequency. With rising frequency Xc decreases while Xl increases. it therefore follows that at some frequency, Xc will equal XL. this is known as the resonant frequency of that particular circuit and can be determined (as mentioned by PillO) by;
upload_2020-1-29_9-25-33.png

now we add the third component which is resistance (R) which is as most folks know is measured in Ohms and will be a major influence on the quality factor (Q). this factor is a trade off between high Q (a very narrow bandwidth response with no loss) or lower Q which will extend the bandwidth but reduce the magnitude of the resonance. mechanically, using a pendulum model, R would equate to the friction in the pivot which will dampen the oscillation of the pendulum decreasing it's "swing" limits and how long it "swings" and similarly wastes this energy in heat. to sum it up, in a pendulum C could be represent gravity, L inertial velocity and R pivot friction loss (damping)

because a pickup is wound as a coil it inherently possesses all three of these physical attributes; R and L in the wire and C because to augment the L (which will ultimately pick up the magnetic signal of the vibrating string so more L more signal strength) more wire needs to be added resulting in a coil that will have an intrinsic interwinding capacitance C due to it's construction and will define it's self resonance characteristics. adding an external parallel (tone) capacitor tunes the pickup.
Playing with these ratios (tricky because they are so closely related) will ultimate yield the response of that particular pickup. further, adding a magnetic core (magnets) will increase the L.

this is a cool little simulation site that will allow you to play with L and C values to observe the response of the question you asked about "decreasing the L would push the resonance upwards."

Parallel Resonance

in a pickup the R would be in series but since it represents loss it can be modeled in parallel as well.
apologies for the length of this post. hope it helps..;)
 
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I really like the one I have. It's a 2013, so I don't know whether that's a new or old one. I put different heads on it, and that transformed it. The snare sounds a whole lot better now that I put cast rims on it as well. It's the perfect kit for a quick in/quick out gig, because the drums, less snare, all fit into a single tom case that I found. So, the kit travels in one bag, the snare in a second, the cymbals in a third, and the hardware in a fourth. It all fits easily on a single convertible hand truck. It even works fairly well tuned down a bit, although mine is generally tuned up more like a jazz kit than a rock kit. It is far better than it has any right to be.
Agreed on all points. To tell if you have a newer version of the kit, check the badges. The older kits had stickers for badges and the washers on the kick drum were plastic. The newer Breakbeats kits have riveted metal badges and there are two washers for each lug on the kick...one plastic and one metal.
 
@Chucky Stiletti, on a J-type bass I can turn the tone all the way down and still get a distinctive edge of treble from what I called resonance #2 (between the L of the pickup and the C of the tone control capacitor (and the much smaller interwinding capacitance)), at around 300Hz. If I try to open the tone control even a little, it introduces enough resistance into the circuit to kill this resonance, and quickly resonance #1 appears (pickup self-resonance around 3Khz), which I have always strongly disliked, formerly on 6-string guitar and now on bass.

Does the above sound reasonable to you?

The good news about Ric pickups (the ones I have) is that the higher DC resistance (because they're wound with finer wire) dampens #1, so I can turn up the tone. Trouble is, I don't especially like bass tone turned up. And the bad news is it also kills #2, so that edge at T=0 is missing. Good news is the tone control is perfectly useable and works as expected at intermediate settings. I guess I like it set fairly low, but I'm not as happy with it as hoped, thus all of this agonizing.

Does the above also sound reasonable?

Lastly, a question that probably noone can answer for me: if I buy a Thunderbucker and mount it in something in the correct location, I wonder how it would strike me relative to the above two. I suspect somewhere in between.
 
For decades I fought against RLC effects because every copper trace on a printed circuit card is essentially a guitar pickup. The transmitting logic gate switches with a superfast switching time and its like ringing a bell and every gate that receives the signal sees something different and traces next to that trace see some energy as well ;)
yeah, distributed parameters and transmission lines....my favorite....make them higher Z and terminate accordingly..:thumbsup:
 
@Chucky Stiletti, on a J-type bass I can turn the tone all the way down and still get a distinctive edge of treble from what I called resonance #2 (between the L of the pickup and the C of the tone control capacitor (and the much smaller interwinding capacitance)), at around 300Hz. If I try to open the tone control even a little, it introduces enough resistance into the circuit to kill this resonance, and quickly resonance #1 appears (pickup self-resonance around 3Khz), which I have always strongly disliked, formerly on 6-string guitar and now on bass.

Does the above sound reasonable to you?

The good news about Ric pickups (the ones I have) is that the higher DC resistance (because they're wound with finer wire) dampens #1, so I can turn up the tone. Trouble is, I don't especially like bass tone turned up. And the bad news is it also kills #2, so that edge at T=0 is missing. Good news is the tone control is perfectly useable and works as expected at intermediate settings. I guess I like it set fairly low, but I'm not as happy with it as hoped, thus all of this agonizing.

Does the above also sound reasonable?

Lastly, a question that probably noone can answer for me: if I buy a Thunderbucker and mount it in something in the correct location, I wonder how it would strike me relative to the above two. I suspect somewhere in between.
PM me..
 
@Chucky Stiletti, ok I will.

Here is another way that you Thunderbird experts might be able to help me.
In this song starting at :10 the bass (a Ric) seems to be played on neck pickup with the tone rolled off.
Can you point me to a song (famous enough so I can hear it on Youtube or Spotify) in which a Thunderbird was played with settings like that and with a tone somewhat like that? Don't need that exact tone, just looking for a comparison.
 
as beautifully answered by @LetItGrowTone and @PillO, electrical resonance can indeed be modeled mechanically as well (everything in life has a resonant frequency). other mechanical examples could include a flywheel or a pendulum. electrically, a capacitor C connected with an inductor L (L is used because H is used for magnetic field strength much as j is used to denote an imaginary number because i is used to denote current) in either series or parallel will create a circuit that will resonate at some frequency. because guitar/bass pickups are generally wired in parallel i'll stick to this configuration also referred to as a "tank" or "antiresonant" ckt.
View attachment 3687416


at DC an inductor is an electrical short and a capacitor is an electrical open.
at AC on the other hand, inductors and capacitors (unlike resistors which will have the same value independent of frequency) start to exhibit a resistive (there is no real Ohmic loss as in resistors but that gets a little more involved) effect called Reactance (X) which as in resistors, is also measured in Ohms. For capacitors it's noted Xc (Capacitive Reactance = 2Pi fC), for inductors Xl (Inductive Reactance = 2Pi fL) where f denotes frequency. With rising frequency Xc decreases while Xl increases. it therefore follows that at some frequency, Xc will equal XL. this is known as the resonant frequency of that particular circuit and can be determined (as mentioned by PillO) by;
View attachment 3687437
now we add the third component which is resistance (R) which is as most folks know is measured in Ohms and will be a major influence on the quality factor (Q). this factor is a trade off between high Q (a very narrow bandwidth response with no loss) or lower Q which will extend the bandwidth but reduce the magnitude of the resonance. mechanically, using a pendulum model, R would equate to the friction in the pivot which will dampen the oscillation of the pendulum decreasing it's "swing" limits and how long it "swings" and similarly wastes this energy in heat. to sum it up, in a pendulum C could be represent gravity, L inertial velocity and R pivot friction loss (damping)

because a pickup is wound as a coil it inherently possesses all three of these physical attributes; R and L in the wire and C because to augment the L (which will ultimately pick up the magnetic signal of the vibrating string so more L more signal strength) more wire needs to be added resulting in a coil that will have an intrinsic interwinding capacitance C due to it's construction and will define it's self resonance characteristics. adding an external parallel (tone) capacitor tunes the pickup.
Playing with these ratios (tricky because they are so closely related) will ultimate yield the response of that particular pickup. further, adding a magnetic core (magnets) will increase the L.

this is a cool little simulation site that will allow you to play with L and C values to observe the response of the question you asked about "decreasing the L would push the resonance upwards."

Parallel Resonance

in a pickup the R would be in series but since it represents loss it can be modeled in parallel as well.
apologies for the length of this post. hope it helps..;)

Very helpful post! I'm having real fun with the modeling link:smug:.
You and Letitgrow are offering the first taste of technical design discussions I've had since I retired from the Scientific community seven years ago, and to think it's even related to Thunderbirds. Keep up the great work!:thumbsup:
 
@Chucky Stiletti, ok I will.

Here is another way that you Thunderbird experts might be able to help me.
In this song starting at :10 the bass (a Ric) seems to be played on neck pickup with the tone rolled off.
Can you point me to a song (famous enough so I can hear it on Youtube or Spotify) in which a Thunderbird was played with settings like that and with a tone somewhat like that? Don't need that exact tone, just looking for a comparison.
Honestly any neck pickup will get close to that, a tbird with a little extra treble(counter intuitive I know) will keep it clear. Just have cap value that doesn't get too dark.
 
@Chucky Stiletti, ok I will.

Here is another way that you Thunderbird experts might be able to help me.
In this song starting at :10 the bass (a Ric) seems to be played on neck pickup with the tone rolled off.
Can you point me to a song (famous enough so I can hear it on Youtube or Spotify) in which a Thunderbird was played with settings like that and with a tone somewhat like that? Don't need that exact tone, just looking for a comparison.

I did this (runs from 2:34-3:06)with the neck pick up on my T-bird for a band I play with. It was recorded direct and using a Matchless tube bass amp. Clearly I am no Chris Squire.....
 
Agreed on all points. To tell if you have a newer version of the kit, check the badges. The older kits had stickers for badges and the washers on the kick drum were plastic. The newer Breakbeats kits have riveted metal badges and there are two washers for each lug on the kick...one plastic and one metal.
Mine is the older one then. The badges don't matter to me at all, and I haven't had any issues with the washers. I lost a couple of them changing heads, but replaced them with nylon washers from the local hardware store if I remember right. The description of the shells is amusing - white wood. It could be anything. It is probably poplar, but who really knows.
 
You guys keep this up and we’ll be at page 10,000 in this thread in a few weeks. I will say I’m having less trouble understanding some of this than the ribbon mic stuff.
Don't get us started again. I wonder if there's such a thing as a ribbon pickup for Thunderbirds. My guess is that the closest to that would be Lace Alumitones.
 
I don't know yet. The Flamingo needs a longer strap. I was playing it last night at a rehearsal, and it just felt too high. The current strap is maxed out for length. Ah, I guess there was a requirement for some form of GAS. As it goes, strap GAS isn't all that expensive.

Right, but I was wondering about width.
 

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