Thunderbird Club

[Thumper]

The black Embird has landed. Absolutely mint, 7 lbs 6 ozs. Delightful to strap on, helium filled? I'll change the strings at some point, but it has a kind of hollow, throaty tone, reminds me of my JC before I put TI flats on it. What do you think, black pickguard and DR Black Beauty's? Interesting, it has a black fingerboard, hadn't seen a photo of one like that before, they normally have a lighter rosewood looking fingerboard. Quite happy with it.

 

[FlyingPigSound]

And accoutrements.

Speaking of which, what's your favorite strap width for a THUNDERBIRD ?

2” black leather classic #2 with chrome buckle, hand-crafted by Rupert Breeden of Bear Straps. His customers include Bob Dylan, Noel Gallagher, Oasis, Pink Floyd, Adam Ant, David Gray, Joe Walsh, and more...

(Good pic of the strap...sorry I’m practicing in my jam-jams)

 

[RedVee]

A Ripper blast from the past. I’ve read that you guys didn’t get after Bon died, anyway this is the original film clip.
Angus is wearing kids ‘Convict’ pyjamas which were a thing around that time. I don’t know why. Mark Evans on his Ripper. Malcolm with his guitar still looking in as new condition.
Bon hamming it up.

loved it.

 

[GBassNorth]

Anyone want to ask me what I think the three are?

1) pickup inductance and pickup capacitance in parallel ("pickup self-resonance"), often around 3KHz, best heard with tone turned up
2) pickup inductance and tone control capacitor in parallel, often around 300Hz, best heard at Tone = 0
3) neck/body resonance, probably even lower than that.

I think that a lot of "action" or "rock attitude" like growl, grind, etc, is caused by one or more of the above.
My favorite is #2, and I believe that the high DC resistance of Ric pickups is preventing it in my Ric, which is depressing, and is one reason I'm here in the Thunderbird forum.

T-Bird pups have a pretty large Rdc as well...

Lower L will definitely do it. It will also push the pup resonance upwards as will the lower C resulting from less turns. The permeability of the magnet material could also influence the difference...don’t know much about Ric pups but it sounds like they are a completely different beast when compared to Fender pups and even more so, when compared to Bird pups...

Ok you two - the engineer in me loves to learn and better understand why things work the way they do. So as opposed to all of us babbling on about Fries vs chips vs crisps how about you two explain in laymans terms what you're talking about here.

Seriously, in all respect, I find the discussion interesting but am having difficulty following the jargon and understanding the practical application or what to do with the information. Please enlighten me (and possibly other club members), it's gotta be more educational and applicable to Thunderbirds than deep frying butter.

So, self-resonance is something I've not heard of before - can you say more about it? Can I hear it? Is it even possible for Pickup inductance (Is that the strings vibrating thru a magnetic field?) to be in Series vs parallel with the Pickup capacitance (I didn't know pickups had capacitance, tell me more).

And how do we get Pickup inductance in parallel with the tone control capacitor? I know we can wire a set of pickups in Series or parallel, is that what you're talking about?

Resonance is more of a mechanical engineering topic so I'm pretty well versed on that at least. I assume you point on that one is the body/neck wood and construction method impact on dampening or accentuating certain frequencies. Like woof tones or dead spots or tendencies to be darker or brighter in tone or increasing/decreasing attack or sustain. Is that correct?

I'm aware of different resistance values for different pickups but I'm never able to recall the attributes of low resistance pups vs high resistance pups. How will each sound relative to the other?

What is "Lower L"? It appears to push the pup resonance up, can you explain what pup resonance is? Is that something that makes an audible difference in the pup?

What is "Lower C"? Is that the winding count around the coils? If so, what does less windings do vs more windings? I think wire size can also have an impact, but I'm not sure what the impact is.

I wasn't aware magnet permeability (density?) had any impact on the pup outside of weaker vs stronger magnets. I have heard there are sound differences between Ceramic vs Alnico magnets but I don't recall what the differences are or if there are other types of magnets used in normal pups.

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Count Bassie]

Ok you two - the engineer in me loves to learn and better understand why things work the way they do. So as opposed to all of us babbling on about Fries vs chips vs crisps how about you two explain in laymans terms what you're talking about here.

Seriously, in all respect, I find the discussion interesting but am having difficulty following the jargon and understanding the practical application or what to do with the information. Please enlighten me (and possibly other club members), it's gotta be more educational and applicable to Thunderbirds than deep frying butter.

So, self-resonance is something I've not heard of before - can you say more about it? Can I hear it? Is it even possible for Pickup inductance (Is that the strings vibrating thru a magnetic field?) to be in Series vs parallel with the Pickup capacitance (I didn't know pickups had capacitance, tell me more).

And how do we get Pickup inductance in parallel with the tone control capacitor? I know we can wire a set of pickups in Series or parallel, is that what you're talking about?

Resonance is more of a mechanical engineering topic so I'm pretty well versed on that at least. I assume you point on that one is the body/neck wood and construction method impact on dampening or accentuating certain frequencies. Like woof tones or dead spots or tendencies to be darker or brighter in tone or increasing/decreasing attack or sustain. Is that correct?

I'm aware of different resistance values for different pickups but I'm never able to recall the attributes of low resistance pups vs high resistance pups. How will each sound relative to the other?

What is "Lower L"? It appears to push the pup resonance up, can you explain what pup resonance is? Is that something that makes an audible difference in the pup?

What is "Lower C"? Is that the winding count around the coils? If so, what does less windings do vs more windings? I think wire size can also have an impact, but I'm not sure what the impact is.

I wasn't aware magnet permeability (density?) had any impact on the pup outside of weaker vs stronger magnets. I have heard there are sound differences between Ceramic vs Alnico magnets but I don't recall what the differences are or if there are other types of magnets used in normal pups.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Yeah, what he said.

 

[Nocturnal]

And accoutrements.

Speaking of which, what's your favorite strap width for a THUNDERBIRD ?

3" wide is my preferred width on a strap. It seems to help distribute the weight a bit better, or at least that is what my shoulder thinks.

 

[PillO]

It takes practice. I often have to deal with a lot of people who are convinced they know more than they actually do. They make the fatal assumption that what they know is really all there is to know and alternative/other facts just can't possibly be true--because they don't hold them. I come from Dutch and German decent and a family full of engineers and lawyers, and a little Irish thrown in. So I can be as absolutely as argumentative and bull-headed as anyone when it's something I know. In those cases, backing down is unknown territory for me (until it becomes evident the other is uninformed but has highly overestimated their knowledge or intelligence and rational thought is lost on them). Then you know it's a lost cause and are wasting valuable time. I've had to work on not using the nuclear option too soon before just unloading and ending things. I've mellowed (i.e., matured) with age. Otherwise I would have been banned from TB a long time ago in my responses to some comments I would really like to "comment" on, shall we say.

There are indeed people that are too dumb to argue with. Then there are others that are too dumb to deal with in any way. Life is too short for me to expend a lot of effort trying to teach those who will not learn.

I am fortunate that at work I am the boss. As I must be for work, I am very open to new ideas and new information. Ignorance is allowed; no one can know everything. Arguing from a position of ignorance is opening the door to an eventual exit should behaviour not change.

 

[PillO]

I understand what you are saying, and that generally the populace is less informed than maybe some of us who spend a fair amount of time reading--not only views representing our positions, but that of those with whom we disagree to ensure we have a robust view of all relevant data. I was just saying I try not to assume (can't know for sure what a given person may have access to information wise, statistics aside) without talking with them. I fully agree with you that people are generally ill and often misinformed. Largely because they lack the interest (because they assume they are knowledgeable), and secondly because they consume outlets of information with which they only tend to agree. That's not how research or serious search works. So I agree with you that people are all too often ill-informed, but I was trying to make a little different point about how I try not to assume anything about any specific individuals. General trends aside, I really don't know about the person next to me without some significant conversation. And the misnaming of bills/laws to make them sound to mean something they don't actually do is a play on the ignorance of people you speak of.

I particularly like the mislabeling of things like The People's Army, Hall, etc. Yeah, it's their's alright.

Oh yes, Thunderbirds are wonderful and I'll be playing one this weekend!

It seems that people suffer from related problems. Confirmation bias and no thought of what might change their mind. I blame poor education in the sciences. The whole of the scientific method is a means of considering information - What do I believe? How would I test what I believe? What would change my mind about what I believe to be true? How would I test the fact that changed my mind?

If your beliefs are not testable or not falsifiable, then it is faith, not reason. Knowing that it is faith and not reason does not negate the faith, but you now understand your beliefs better.

 

[PillO]

Me Too!(The THUNDERBIRD part). I enjoy playing dumber than I really am at times just to observe reactions. Ah ain't no jeenyus, but I'm not as dumb as I look.

 

[LetItGrowTone]

Resonance is more of a mechanical engineering topic so I'm pretty well versed on that at least.

@GBassNorth, it's a lot of questions. But if you're comfortable with *mechanical* resonance you're in good shape because there's a nice analogy between mechanical and electrical resonance, and your intuition with regard to mechanical resonance should serve you.

Familiar with the intro level mass-spring model, right? The mass stores a variable amount of gravitational potential energy - more when it's high, less when it's low - and the spring stores a variable amount of energy proportional to how much it is stretched (can't remember exactly what this is called, but it is also a form of potential energy). Then, as the mass oscillates up and down, the mass and the spring are exchanging this energy between them, taking turns storing it. If there is no resistance to the motion (in an idealized model), it will continue oscillating like that. But every real world system has some resistance, and this will eventually absorb the available energy and the system will stop.

L
L is the symbol for inductance. Can't remember why.
If current is passing through a wire, a magnetic field forms around the wire. There's energy in this **magnetic** field, so the space around the wire can be seen as a storage space for that energy. And inductance, L, is proportional to how much energy can be stored. And just as the mass when raised (gaining gravitational potential energy) gains a potential to do *work*, that magnetic field around the wire can be made to do work. If you want to, you can "feel" this in your intuition, like a rock in your hand.
(To make a long story shorter, this energy can be concentrated if the wire is formed into a coil, and this coil can store more energy if it has certain materials like iron inside or nearby.)

C
C is the symbol for capacitance.
If two conductors have a potential difference (a voltage) between them, then an **electric** field is formed between them, and energy is stored in this field. And just as above, *work* can be done by this energy. More energy can be stored if the conductors are close together and have more surface area, thus "plates" with an insulator between them.

R
Resistance. It is present in all conductors (that are relevant here). It dissipates those energies described above, converting it into heat. If collected, heat can do work, but in cases relevant here it is just dissipated into the air. The wire in the pickup has this resistance.

Analogy with the mass-spring problem:
--The 1) mass and the 2) spring exchange their energy between them (oscillating), and any 3) resistance (present in all real systems) eventually damps the oscillation as the energy is lost.
--The 1) magnetic field around the wire, and the 2) electric field in the capacitor exchange their energy between them (oscillating), and the 3) resistance in the wire dissipates the energy, damping the oscillation.

More:
--The mass and spring will oscillate at some frequency determined by the mass and the spring constant.
--The inductor and capacitor will also oscillate at some frequency determined by their amount of inductance, L, and capacitance, C.

Oh, there's more of course. Is this kind of stuff what you were wanting?

 

[FlyingPigSound]

And since so many of us don't have an actual sound guy, here are the basics made simple.
View attachment 3687041
Alas, I have no idea who AR is. Possibly the pigeon's mother.

Also, the pigeon wants to grow up to be a silverburst THUNDERBIRD.

I'm the sound guy. It's usually the bass player I've found in my experience. The drummer brings enough stuff, so you can't ask him, and god forbid you ask the "talent" to do it (aka vocals or guitars).

 

[PillO]

And accoutrements.

Speaking of which, what's your favorite strap width for a THUNDERBIRD ?

I will go one better. I like this strap.
LM Products Odin Viking Series Leather Strap - Black
2 1/2 ", not padded, thick leather. Seems like it shouldn't be comfortable, but is perhaps the most comfortable strap I have. (I have a second that gets used with the JC).

 

[FlyingPigSound]

I will go one better. I like this strap.
LM Products Odin Viking Series Leather Strap - Black
2 1/2 ", not padded, thick leather. Seems like it shouldn't be comfortable, but is perhaps the most comfortable strap I have. (I have a second that gets used with the JC).

That is a gorgeous strap. My guitar player has it for his Gibson non-reverse Firebird. I got one in black from Santa, but it's not long enough for me. I like to play my T-Bird low....

 

[Engle]

did it fix it?

It hasn’t done it since, but I haven’t played it enough to know for sure.

 

[PillO]

@GBassNorth, it's a lot of questions. But if you're comfortable with *mechanical* resonance you're in good shape because there's a nice analogy between mechanical and electrical resonance, and your intuition with regard to mechanical resonance should serve you.

Familiar with the intro level mass-spring model, right? The mass stores a variable amount of gravitational potential energy - more when it's high, less when it's low - and the spring stores a variable amount of energy proportional to how much it is stretched (can't remember exactly what this is called, but it is also a form of potential energy). Then, as the mass oscillates up and down, the mass and the spring are exchanging this energy between them, taking turns storing it. If there is no resistance to the motion (in an idealized model), it will continue oscillating like that. But every real world system has some resistance, and this will eventually absorb the available energy and the system will stop.

L
L is the symbol for inductance. Can't remember why.
If current is passing through a wire, a magnetic field forms around the wire. There's energy in this **magnetic** field, so the space around the wire can be seen as a storage space for that energy. And inductance, L, is proportional to how much energy can be stored. And just as the mass when raised (gaining gravitational potential energy) gains a potential to do *work*, that magnetic field around the wire can be made to do work. If you want to, you can "feel" this in your intuition, like a rock in your hand.
(To make a long story shorter, this energy can be concentrated if the wire is formed into a coil, and this coil can store more energy if it has certain materials like iron inside or nearby.)

C
C is the symbol for capacitance.
If two conductors have a potential difference (a voltage) between them, then an **electric** field is formed between them, and energy is stored in this field. And just as above, *work* can be done by this energy. More energy can be stored if the conductors are close together and have more surface area, thus "plates" with an insulator between them.

R
Resistance. It is present in all conductors (that are relevant here). It dissipates those energies described above, converting it into heat. If collected, heat can do work, but in cases relevant here it is just dissipated into the air. The wire in the pickup has this resistance.

Analogy with the mass-spring problem:
--The 1) mass and the 2) spring exchange their energy between them (oscillating), and any 3) resistance (present in all real systems) eventually damps the oscillation as the energy is lost.
--The 1) magnetic field around the wire, and the 2) electric field in the capacitor exchange their energy between them (oscillating), and the 3) resistance in the wire dissipates the energy, damping the oscillation.

More:
--The mass and spring will oscillate at some frequency determined by the mass and the spring constant.
--The inductor and capacitor will also oscillate at some frequency determined by their amount of inductance, L, and capacitance, C.

Oh, there's more of course. Is this kind of stuff what you were wanting?

If memory serves* frequency of resonance f=1/(2(pi)(LC)^0.5)****

* curse all of you making me remember stuff I forgot 30 years ago!**

** I had to forget to make room in memory for all the chemistry and molecular biology. Had I not taken that path, I would have taken the scholarship to study electrical engineering.

**** Please don't make me remember the calculus to derive that equation.

 

[PillO]

That is a gorgeous strap. My guitar player has it for his Gibson non-reverse Firebird. I got one in black from Santa, but it's not long enough for me. I like to play my T-Bird low....
View attachment 3687204

I find mine is plenty long for me, but I am not that tall. A few months ago I started wearing the Thunderbird a couple of inches higher. (There was an over correction that was partly reversed. @GBassNorth can do tank circuit math on that resonance.) There was an observation by my teacher that although he understood the ergonomics of Thunderbirds vs other basses he thought I could improve by raising the bass. He was right.

 

[Chucky Stiletti]

I find mine is plenty long for me, but I am not that tall. A few months ago I started wearing the Thunderbird a couple of inches higher. (There was an over correction that was partly reversed. @GBassNorth can do tank circuit math on that resonance.) There was an observation by my teacher that although he understood the ergonomics of Thunderbirds vs other basses he thought I could improve by raising the bass. He was right.

Entwistle wore his pretty high..

 

[MCF]

The black Embird has landed. Absolutely mint, 7 lbs 6 ozs. Delightful to strap on, helium filled? I'll change the strings at some point, but it has a kind of hollow, throaty tone, reminds me of my JC before I put TI flats on it. What do you think, black pickguard and DR Black Beauty's? Interesting, it has a black fingerboard, hadn't seen a photo of one like that before, they normally have a lighter rosewood looking fingerboard. Quite happy with it.
View attachment 3687063

Nice! My ‘07 Limited Edition Custom Shop in PB has a darkish board. The ‘10 Goth with BBS is medium dark. I think it just depends on what batch they were using at the time.

 

[Gaolee]

Tell em your dad was a cop. They wont want you.

That is not sure-fire. Being an ex-cop is not a sure fire way to get dismissed, either.

 

[Gaolee]

And accoutrements.

Speaking of which, what's your favorite strap width for a THUNDERBIRD ?

I don't know yet. The Flamingo needs a longer strap. I was playing it last night at a rehearsal, and it just felt too high. The current strap is maxed out for length. Ah, I guess there was a requirement for some form of GAS. As it goes, strap GAS isn't all that expensive.