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Too Much Winging & Not Enough Structure?

#21
bumperbass said:
I learned to live with it. They booked a lot. I quit when I paid off my new SUV. I just couldn't take the looseness anymore, TBH.
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This pretty perfectly captures what the decision has to be. You either learn to live with it and ideally enjoy it, or you move on to other projects where people take it a little more seriously.

I was in a band that lived by this "close enough" mantra. Guys were talented enough to cover for their lack of willingness to practice and actually learn parts. But every night was a worry about who was gonna screw up what. Every time the band had an opportunity to do something bigger and go to the next step the guys wouldn't take it seriously enough and the opp would bottom out. We eventually dissolved because I couldn't deal with the lack of discipline and they felt suffocated by my expectations for more precision.

OP, if you can relax and enjoy the ride then try it. I suspect you can't and that's why you wrote this. So my advice is to find another group.
 
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#22
“I was in a band that lived by this "close enough" mantra. Guys were talented enough to cover for their lack of willingness to practice and actually learn parts.”​
I’ve been in several bands like this. These bands always experienced more conflict over “how they played it on the record” than did the cover bands whose goal was to play everything “true to the record”.
 
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#23
ah Sunday Papers! From "Look Sharp". A great album and one of my favorites in the day because every song had a very prominent bass line in the mix (unusual back then). Graham Maby was the bassist and this album really inspired me about the time i was striving to learn bass. that's very obscure. Never heard a band pull that one out! how fun. Look Sharp was simply a brilliant album. I still like listening to it.
 
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#26
Ultimately it's up to you to know your parts and role in the band.
Their view on covers require you to be as accurate as possible. Originals? Unless the music is written down then surely there's room for "improvisation" until the song is confirmed as to how it MUST sound.
Give yourself a limit of what is acceptable.
I always aim for anything over 70% accurate. Keeping in mind the amount of songs I'll do in the show. Anywhere from 30 to 60 songs.
Anything under 70% and I am below par and those mistakes need to be rectified.
Relax, enjoy the experience, keep improving your skills. The problem you face is, IMO, not a huge one because they sound as though you can work with them and that can be a hard thing to find in bands.
 
#27
Thanks for the input. Most of the advice given here is solid. To me, tight = fun. I would love to have a master list but it doesn't exist so I am compiling it myself week-to-week based on what I've learned so far. I don't mind improv as long as I have some general idea of the key and the changes. These are a couple of great guys and I love the material, but we are only 5 rehearsals in right now so we'll see where it goes. We played last night and I approached it from a more relaxed point of view. It was definitely tighter, partly because we went over a high percentage of familiar stuff and maybe because I wasn't as rigid. They are looking to add either a second guitar player, a violin player or a multi-instrumentalist so the list I am working on charting out should provide any additional people some structure to get started. If it isn't tightened up to my standards I won't play a gig.
 
#28
20-25 new songs each week means one of three things:

1. No one has a full time job, and can put in hours every day learning songs with high paying regular gigs (or you all are millionaires).
2. Every song is a I IV V I.
3. It's a very lose jam, and no one cares about anything but drinking some beers and making some noise.

I'm betting on door #3.
 
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#29
telebassman said:
I've been playing with a drummer and guitar player once a week for the last 4 weeks. These guys have played together in a couple of different groups and they blaze through 20-25 songs each week. 15 or 20 of them are originals. I really like the original songs and enjoy the cover choices as well as the musicians. I'm usually comfortable and prepared for about 30% (7-8 songs) because we discussed them the week before but the rest are just a complete toss-up. The next week we might randomly repeat 10-12 from the previous week and then 10-13 are a toss-up again so then I only am prepared for like 15%. It is frustrating because I like to be prepared so when I try and nail them down on next week's list they both say "what you played tonight sounded fine, we don't wanna play the covers exactly like the original versions and the originals sound fine just keep winging it" but I wanna button things down a little.

For example, last week they tore into Joe Jackson's Sunday Paper. I love the song but I couldn't remember exactly how the entire bass part went from memory but I did remember enough to know that the bass part certainly matters in that song. I winged it and they were happy but when I went home and sat down with it I was embarrassed by what I had played at rehearsal and learned it correctly knowing that this week we might not play it again.

They know a ton of songs and I get that they don't want to be too regimented and predictable but I want to be predictable enough to sound good. Somehow they got the impression that I am trying to learn every single thing note for note but I just want to be in the ballpark of how each song goes and develop solid parts. I'm the new guy so I don't wanna come in and take control over the rehearsals but I only have a certain amount of time at home to prep. Anyone ever been in this situation? Any advice?
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Set your phone up to record you guys playing. You'll have a set list the way your guys play them in a couple weeks. Practice to that, and you can also use it to improve on things you don't like.
 
#31
telebassman said:
Any advice?
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you pretty much came to it in your own post #27: relax!

you have everything you need for success if you lose the 'insistence' on fulfilling your own agenda. instead of nailing everything down before a rehearsal with these cats, you can easily nail everything down after a rehearsal. it's not what you prefer, but it's actually easier --- a gift! take advantage of what you're given and build on it. good luck! :thumbsup:
 
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#33
Being tight requires knowing each other's parts, at least rhythmically. Vaguely winging it form beginning to end will never sound tight because nobody knows what to expect from each other.

To be really tight while still allowing for improvisation you have to have the one of two things:

1.) the song really dialed in - some sections nailed down, always played the same (preferably the start & end) other sections clearly agreed upon for jamming. Helps to have a planned musical phrase that serves as an exit signal from the jam.

2.) the style really dialed in : many styles have tradition and formula for the rhythm section that allow you to be tight by virtue of knowing the style well ( Jazz, latin, various blue styles ).
 
#34
telebassman said:
I've been playing with a drummer and guitar player once a week for the last 4 weeks. These guys have played together in a couple of different groups and they blaze through 20-25 songs each week. 15 or 20 of them are originals. I really like the original songs and enjoy the cover choices as well as the musicians. I'm usually comfortable and prepared for about 30% (7-8 songs) because we discussed them the week before but the rest are just a complete toss-up. The next week we might randomly repeat 10-12 from the previous week and then 10-13 are a toss-up again so then I only am prepared for like 15%. It is frustrating because I like to be prepared so when I try and nail them down on next week's list they both say "what you played tonight sounded fine, we don't wanna play the covers exactly like the original versions and the originals sound fine just keep winging it" but I wanna button things down a little.

For example, last week they tore into Joe Jackson's Sunday Paper. I love the song but I couldn't remember exactly how the entire bass part went from memory but I did remember enough to know that the bass part certainly matters in that song. I winged it and they were happy but when I went home and sat down with it I was embarrassed by what I had played at rehearsal and learned it correctly knowing that this week we might not play it again.

They know a ton of songs and I get that they don't want to be too regimented and predictable but I want to be predictable enough to sound good. Somehow they got the impression that I am trying to learn every single thing note for note but I just want to be in the ballpark of how each song goes and develop solid parts. I'm the new guy so I don't wanna come in and take control over the rehearsals but I only have a certain amount of time at home to prep. Anyone ever been in this situation? Any advice?
Click to expand...

You're doing everything right, with great spirit, so keep on doing it. In my band, I would fire me and hire you.
 
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#35
Being able to wing it on the fly (too many metaphors) is like learning 40 songs.

How refreshing to be playing in a situation where the other members value your approach or take on a song.

In a three piece it is most important that at least two members know what is going on.

I agree with others that it is worth it to make a list of the songs that were a struggle so you can get familiar, but be careful because they may never play them again. And all of the note for note learning will just be an exercise.
 
#36
I don't know anything more about you besides what you wrote. Apologies if my read is incorrect and absolutely no criticism or judgment intended.

It sounds to me like you're not in a comfortable situation. It seems that as a player, you NEED to be able to play the lines featured on the original track. Replicating the feel of a song doesn't float your boat. I say that because I'm typically quite the opposite in that regard - I prefer to make a song my own and wouldn't even be in a band that required me to completely copy lines. But like you I prefer to be prepared I enjoy the challenge of a blind jam for fun - but I wouldn't show up to a cover band audition under the guise of a jam. I probably won't impress. But back to you..

I see three options.
1. Find a more comfortable situation. They like to jam, you really don't. No harm, no foul - they're just not a good fit for you.
2. Work with them to make it more fun. Get them to minimize the unprepared jams, while you work on being more tolerant of them.
3. Change your perspective and grow a little as a musician. Start learning songs by their groove and progressions rather than the specific bass line. Pick out any iconic licks and then groove around them. Start simple and then make the groove interesting as you get to know the song. And then learn how to build lines that work well with your specific bandmates. (I never lock down a line until I've played it a few times with my band.) Chart out songs as you learn them for future reference if that's your thing, but for sure try to spend a chunk of your practice time jamming against random songs you like. (I'll pick one of my Pandora channels to jam with when I want to just have fun like this.)
This will help you in a couple of ways:
- Your ear will recognize more and more progressions and your fingers will start to know some basic successful patterns. This is a huge benefit for jam situations - especially on songs you're not familiar with.

- You'll start building a personal catalog. The more songs you've played before, the fewer songs that will feel like jams. A benefit on every level.

- Learning new songs becomes easier and easier. You'll start recognizing patterns that are used over and over again and you'll already have knowledge of what to do with those patterns.

It sounds like you're doing well enough winging it for your band - it's just you you're not impressing. It's just music, give yourself a break and have fun with it. IF you like the hardcore transcription of bass lines, that's fine too, but try to figure out how to survive without them.

Good luck!
 
#37
For me, what I do in your situation, is try to adapt to whatever existing work style the other guys have as best I can. This usually means that I have to maintain my own charts, cheat sheets, whatever I need to play at a level I'm comfortable with. Nothing seems to piss some guys off more than, "hey, did anybody chart this stuff out?"

Yes, you will be surprised a lot initially. But just take notes. With a 30 song list, eventually you will be playing everything a second time. If you are surprised the second time, that's on you.

Recording rehearsals is also a really good thing.

I've also had the inverse situation happen. New bassist (I'm playing guitar) refuses to learn the songs. I mean, nothing but excuses for four months. We gave him sound files (in the proper key) and chord charts, and he just wouldn't do it. All he would do is watch me, and hit the changes a split second after I did. So every downbeat was essentially a flam. I hated playing with that guy.
 
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#38
telebassman said:
I've been playing with a drummer and guitar player once a week for the last 4 weeks. These guys have played together in a couple of different groups and they blaze through 20-25 songs each week. 15 or 20 of them are originals. I really like the original songs and enjoy the cover choices as well as the musicians. I'm usually comfortable and prepared for about 30% (7-8 songs) because we discussed them the week before but the rest are just a complete toss-up. The next week we might randomly repeat 10-12 from the previous week and then 10-13 are a toss-up again so then I only am prepared for like 15%. It is frustrating because I like to be prepared so when I try and nail them down on next week's list they both say "what you played tonight sounded fine, we don't wanna play the covers exactly like the original versions and the originals sound fine just keep winging it" but I wanna button things down a little.

For example, last week they tore into Joe Jackson's Sunday Paper. I love the song but I couldn't remember exactly how the entire bass part went from memory but I did remember enough to know that the bass part certainly matters in that song. I winged it and they were happy but when I went home and sat down with it I was embarrassed by what I had played at rehearsal and learned it correctly knowing that this week we might not play it again.

They know a ton of songs and I get that they don't want to be too regimented and predictable but I want to be predictable enough to sound good. Somehow they got the impression that I am trying to learn every single thing note for note but I just want to be in the ballpark of how each song goes and develop solid parts. I'm the new guy so I don't wanna come in and take control over the rehearsals but I only have a certain amount of time at home to prep. Anyone ever been in this situation? Any advice?
Click to expand...

Enjoy the opportunity to learn your craft without being badgered about playing the wrong notes.

John
 
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#39
One thing that I haven't yet seen mentioned is that this is a three piece. It's REALLY easy for a guitarist and a drummer to play random songs all night. No one has to play the same notes as each other. When you add a bass, it becomes a BAND, and the bassist and guitarist need to be on the same page. I've seen guitarists do this so many times I can't count them all. That said, the tips above are good. I think ultimately you would at least demand (and get) a master list that captures everything they will ever play (for the most part). If it's 150 songs, you can't sit down in a weekend and learn them all, but you can start plugging through them methodically, listen to them all, spot the odd ducks and focus on them etc. I dunno, man, I wouldn't last. I might be able to hang ok, but it doesn't sound fun to me. Also bring a notebook to rehearsals and write everything down - like just take 30 seconds after each song and write a high-level chord sheet for each tune. This can save your bacon when the drummer is counting off Random Song 569 and you'd at least like to come in on the right note.
 
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