Totally transparent combo bass amp?

[MYLOWFREQ]

A powered full-range wedge should do it.

 

[Al Kraft]

I too appreciate an amp and cab that can let the tone of my bass shine through. On the other hand most amp and cab reviews tend to talk more about having the right voicing to complement the bass and effectively deliver "that sound" at venue filling volumes.

I just don't recall many threads with amps and cabs being compared where everyone was looking for the optimal "simple wire with gain" characteristic. I try to optimize every piece in the system to get the perfect sound (that I'm aiming for) in the mix delivered to an audience seat - systems desigend to optimize ruler flat gain don't necessarily help me do that. Maybe my bass just doesn't have enough tiome shaping capability on its own...

IME, studio work where it's bass right into an interface being worked in real time by an experienced engineer rarely comes out without some color and effects - so that's not even a wire with gain situation in most cases. I think straight gain increase with no detectable change from input to output other than volume just doesn't seem to have all that much utility in my world.

 

[tombowlus]

I just don't recall many threads with amps and cabs being compared where everyone was looking for the optimal "simple wire with gain" characteristic.

Actually, we had quite the run of those types of threads in the mid 2000's, as I recall.

 

[Foz]

Avalon 737-PA amp - tru3way GB 66

About as transparent as it gets.

 

[Al Kraft]

Actually, we had quite the run of those types of threads in the mid 2000's, as I recall.

My mistake then Tom, I started following TB after that. Perhaps I'm also a little biased because the threads I have been drawn to are where folks typically compare the vintage rigs (e.g. Ampeg SVT and 810 or B-15, GK RB, Aguilar DB750/751, Mesa 400/400+, SWR, Acoustic, etc.) as "tone benchmarks" which to my ear do have some of their own unique flavor with the newer gear we're seeing today.

I think there is a place for laser straight, ruler flat gain in amplification, it just hasn't seemed as popular in the threads I view which are admittedly a subset of TB, at a limited point in time, and using a selection process that likely reflects more my personal bias/interest than perhaps the braoder TB community as a whole.

 

[Wasnex]

My mistake then Tom, I started following TB after that. Perhaps I'm also a little biased because the threads I have been drawn to are where folks typically compare the vintage rigs (e.g. Ampeg SVT and 810 or B-15, GK RB, Aguilar DB750/751, Mesa 400/400+, SWR, Acoustic, etc.) as "tone benchmarks" which to my ear do have some of their own unique flavor with the newer gear we're seeing today.

I think there is a place for laser straight, ruler flat gain in amplification, it just hasn't seemed as popular in the threads I view which are admittedly a subset of TB, at a limited point in time, and using a selection process that likely reflects more my personal bias/interest than perhaps the braoder TB community as a whole.

As I mentioned, the SVT can actually be dialed in pretty flat. Here are some frequency response graphs done by @Mark Reccord
Preamp (channel 1)

SVT_CH1_FLAT


Power Amp

SVT_PWR_AMP

 

[agedhorse]

How many folks do you think play the SVT set that way?

I have studied the response of many player's favorite settings on the SVT as well as many other amps (say the Walkabout for example) and can say that I have not found a single player to set the amp to maximize flatness. They tend to come up with somewhat similar families of tone curves (depending on the music type) no matter what amp they are using, representing their preferred tone.

While flat response may be thought of as the ideal response, years of designing amps and cabinets tells me definitively that this thought is not at all accurate IME.

 

[Al Kraft]

As I mentioned, the SVT can actually be dialed in pretty flat. Here are some frequency response graphs done by @Mark Reccord
Preamp (channel 1)
View attachment 3854163
SVT_CH1_FLAT


Power Amp
View attachment 3854164
SVT_PWR_AMP

I can't argue with that data...but it does make me wonder why my bass can't get exactly the same tone from any SS ruler flat amp (class AB,G/H, or D) that it can from an SVT. If an amp adds only gain to every frequency and makes no other measurable changes to the signal in any way, what is it that we're all chasing in terms of tone...or is it the ruler flat "wire with gain" that's our holy grail?

I hope not to come across as argumentative, but this is a curious discussion in my mind in terms of a valued bass amplifier quality. Most threads talk about things like harmonic richness and emphasis in certain areas that creates a nice "fill in the blank voicing/emphasis" that compelments my bass or works well with ABC effects or helps me slot into a mix by dropping back a bit in the XYZ frequency band.

My guess is that every head can get close to a flat setting. In the spirit of being a good sport I'll add one that another TB player contributed. Maybe lots of folks value and use these settings a lot more than I thought. I will concede, however, that I always like to know where the maximally flat point is on my heads as a useful reference point.

 

[Wasnex]

How many folks do you think play the SVT set that way?

I have studied the response of many player's favorite settings on the SVT as well as many other amps (say the Walkabout for example) and can say that I have not found a single player to set the amp to maximize flatness. They tend to come up with somewhat similar families of tone curves (depending on the music type) no matter what amp they are using, representing their preferred tone.

While flat response may be thought of as the ideal response, years of designing amps and cabinets tells me definitively that this thought is not at all accurate IME.

I would argue that once you hook up an 810, the relatively flat response the amp is capable of doesn't really matter that much. I.E. the 810 is far from flat. Also in my opinion there is no amount of EQ tweaking that can make an 810 sound that way I want it to sound. At one time I had an 8 band parametric hooked up to my SVT and it still was not enough EQ overcome the cabs inherent voicing. That's why I wound up biamping my SVT.

The conclusion I draw is people who play SVTs and 810s are unlikely to be the type of people who would like an full range flat response (FRFR) rig. But people who like FRFR systems might be surprised if they hooked up an SVT to an FRFR cab....although somehow despite the relatively flat response, the SVT will still manage to sound like an SVT.

Also just because someone uses an FRFR rig does not mean they have to run the rig flat. It's just means they prefer a system that is capable of flat. Rather than having to deal with a designer's baked in EQ contour, I prefer an amp with relatively flat response and parametric tone controls, so I can dial in a range a sounds as my needs change.

 

[Wasnex]

I can't argue with that data...but it does make me wonder why my bass can't get exactly the same tone from any SS ruler flat amp (class AB,G/H, or D) that it can from an SVT. If an amp adds only gain to every frequency and makes no other measurable changes to the signal in any way, what is it that we're all chasing in terms of tone...or is it the ruler flat "wire with gain" that's our holy grail?

I hope not to come across as argumentative, but this is a curious discussion in my mind in terms of a valued bass amplifier quality. Most threads talk about things like harmonic richness and emphasis in certain areas that creates a nice "fill in the blank voicing/emphasis" that compelments my bass or works well with ABC effects or helps me slot into a mix by dropping back a bit in the XYZ frequency band.

My guess is that every head can get close to a flat setting. In the spirit of being a good sport I'll add one that another TB player contributed. Maybe lots of folks value and use these settings a lot more than I thought. I will concede, however, that I always like to know where the maximally flat point is on my heads as a useful reference point. View attachment 3854196

The SVT is not ruler flat. It has a few dB of broadband emphasis centered around 400hz. It's hard to see in the graph because the unit per division is 20dB. I think the slight emphasis is part of the SVTs inherent voicing, as opposed to the mid scoop you get with many other bass amps. As far as tube amps go, the SVT is one of the more neutral ones. I believe several of my tube amps do not have a nominally flat setting.

Also, in order to fairly compare to amps you need to use the same speaker. Comparing and SVT through an 810 is not going to give a fair comparison to a GK MB500 through a GK Neos. Also I think the way both amps take EQ is highly relevant. The tone controls of the SVT sound and behave a lot different than the tone controls of the GK.

 

[Al Kraft]

Rather than having to deal with a designer's baked in EQ contour, I prefer an amp with relatively flat response and parametric tone controls, so I can dial in a range a sounds as my needs change.

This is where we agree. I like an amp with all controls at/near the neutral position that is close to my preferred voicing with my bass and playing technique. This allows me to have room to use the controls to adjust as necessary when I need to. I wouldn't buy an amp that is so colored that I have to use 50-70% of the control authority to get it to my preferred tone....it leaves me too little left to make adjustments.

Conversely that could mean that for me (and admittedly I never really thought about it this way) an impressively ruler flat amp may not be my preferred starting point. So now I need to figure out what my Aguilar TH, Mesa Carbines, Walkabouts and SW's, SWR SM-400S and GK MB's all have in common that I find appealing. Maybe I like variety within some kind of boundaries and should have never gotten into this thread.

 

[Al Kraft]

Also I think the way both amps take EQ is highly relevant. The tone controls of the SVT sound and behave a lot different than the tone controls of the GK.

Excellent point!

 

[Downunderwonder]

It really isn't necessary when an EQ pedal can give you what you want, to the point the combo can't give you the volume level you require, but if it's a mic'd sound anyway, why stress over it?

 

[Downunderwonder]

complement the bass and effectively deliver "that sound" at venue filling volumes.

OP asked about combo amps which are not generally thought of as venue filling. If he was thinking of a venue filling combo then he should have said as much. But it's all academic anyway given he is only poking the TB hive mind for entertainment, not seeking something to put to use anywhere.

 

[Al Kraft]

I guess this really comes down to what you want or are looking for out of each element in the system...bass, strings, technique, effects/pedals, pre-amp, amp, speakers/cab. I suspect that most everyone would place a different value/weight/percent on where in that "system" they look to get "their sound". Obviously there are pros and cons to relying too heavily on each area if you want to preserve your versatility to adjust across a wide range.

 

[agedhorse]

Yes, agreed, the speaker choice can certainly swamp any "perceived" benefits of a "ruler flat amp"

 

[Jim C]

I would argue that once you hook up an 810, the relatively flat response the amp is capable of doesn't really matter that much. I.E. the 810 is far from flat. Also in my opinion there is no amount of EQ tweaking that can make an 810 sound that way I want it to sound. At one time I had an 8 band parametric hooked up to my SVT and it still was not enough EQ overcome the cabs inherent voicing. That's why I wound up biamping my SVT.

The conclusion I draw is people who play SVTs and 810s are unlikely to be the type of people who would like an full range flat response (FRFR) rig. But people who like FRFR systems might be surprised if they hooked up an SVT to an FRFR cab....although somehow despite the relatively flat response, the SVT will still manage to sound like an SVT.

Also just because someone uses an FRFR rig does not mean they have to run the rig flat. It's just means they prefer a system that is capable of flat. Rather than having to deal with a designer's baked in EQ contour, I prefer an amp with relatively flat response and parametric tone controls, so I can dial in a range a sounds as my needs change.

I don't know if the knobs at noon are meant to be flat with an SVT-CL but I do know that I use very little EQ with an SVT into either my GB 2x12w NeoX or my Bergantino HT322. Other than lack of power for clean and loud, I find the SVT sounds beautiful with either of these cabinets. Very full range and clear.
Obviously these cabinets sound nothing like an 8x10 cabinet.

 

[agedhorse]

I don't know if the knobs at noon are meant to be flat with an SVT-CL but I do know that I use very little EQ with an SVT into either my GB 2x12w NeoX or my Bergantino HT322. Other than lack of power for clean and loud, I find the SVT sounds beautiful with either of these cabinets. Very full range and clear.
Obviously these cabinets sound nothing like an 8x10 cabinet.

The knobs at noon is not very flat. That's one of the benefits (IMO) of that amp though... it's native voicing.

 

[Jim C]

@Wasnex
Do you recall the knob position for flat response based on the curves from post #66?
Not that it changes anything but curious to know.

 

[seamonkey]

For Bass combos there's always Acoustic Image
Acoustic Image

One trade off is the loudness. They aren't meant to be loud, they trade size and accuracy for loudness.

"I need Sensible" is the new "I need Loud"