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Update to the G2220 saga

We have seen that these pickups have a steel (magnetizable) slug in the middle and bar magnets on the bottom. It may be fairly easy to flip the magnets in this case. What about the coil? Does simply swapping which lead is ground and which is out give you the needed reversal? Or would the coil need to be physically flipped?

That would be a pretty cool follow-up to this whole thing - to convert one of these dual-single-coils to a properly noise-canceling single-coil configuration.

I don't know for sure...... in theory it seems like it may work to swap the hot and ground leads on one pickup and reverse the polarity of the magnets. But I'm not a pickup builder, and I can only guess that there's some specific reason that reverse-winding one coil is the standard approach. Could be that having the end of the coil as the hot lead versus having the beginning of the coil as the hot lead makes some difference that I'm not aware of.

Edited to add - see post #164 - @sloppy_phil has done exactly this with a Ric, so if it can be done without destroying these pickups it's certainly worth a try. My guess is that the coil end versus beginning as hot might make some tonal difference.
 
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Oh dear. Let me walk you through this.

Tech opens up bass, finds the wrong pickups in there.

Tech goes "hey, someone put the wrong pickups in this bass!"

Tech writes up a warranty claim which gets filed in a database at Fender that nobody ever looks at (because the tech is authorized to ascertain warranty coverage), and then does whatever is needed to fix the problem.

The end.

And that's exactly what I expected to happen. yet....

So, here is what doesn't make logical sense to me. Why didn't they just put humbuckers in the OPs bass? The defect wasn't unfixable. Did they claim supply chain issues, or what? That would give us more info.

They claimed a lot of things. One of the things they claimed was that it was supposed to come with single-coils (despite being listed as otherwise on their spec sheet) and that when in the middle position it was in "humbucking mode."

One problem with that-- being that there are two bridge pickups.

They claimed supply chain issues.

They claimed that these pickups were, in fact, the spec'd pickups. (what does that even mean though? That they knew they were single coil and were purposely committing fraud? or that they were lying to my face and telling me that the single coils were humbuckers?)

They claimed that they would send me a replacement bass with the proper humbuckers (never happened.)

I am frankly just as puzzled as a lot of people are about how badly they handled my claim. They 100% dropped the ball here.
 
And that's exactly what I expected to happen. yet....



They claimed a lot of things. One of the things they claimed was that it was supposed to come with single-coils (despite being listed as otherwise on their spec sheet) and that when in the middle position it was in "humbucking mode."

One problem with that-- being that there are two bridge pickups.

They claimed supply chain issues.

They claimed that these pickups were, in fact, the spec'd pickups. (what does that even mean though? That they knew they were single coil and were purposely committing fraud? or that they were lying to my face and telling me that the single coils were humbuckers?)

They claimed that they would send me a replacement bass with the proper humbuckers (never happened.)

I am frankly just as puzzled as a lot of people are about how badly they handled my claim. They 100% dropped the ball here.
Invoice them for two humbuckers of relevant polarity.
 
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And that's exactly what I expected to happen. yet....



They claimed a lot of things. One of the things they claimed was that it was supposed to come with single-coils (despite being listed as otherwise on their spec sheet) and that when in the middle position it was in "humbucking mode."

One problem with that-- being that there are two bridge pickups.

They claimed supply chain issues.

They claimed that these pickups were, in fact, the spec'd pickups. (what does that even mean though? That they knew they were single coil and were purposely committing fraud? or that they were lying to my face and telling me that the single coils were humbuckers?)

They claimed that they would send me a replacement bass with the proper humbuckers (never happened.)

I am frankly just as puzzled as a lot of people are about how badly they handled my claim. They 100% dropped the ball here.
I would agree. It sure sounds like they failed to honor their warranty and put your bass to spec. How/why that happened is something we can't know, and I could think of a number of scenarios but I don't want to speculate too far about those. Could be that as they began to investigate what it would take to do this, they did begin to uncover a bigger can of worms that someone in the communication chain decided they didn't want to take responsibility for.

It would seem to me that the easiest thing to do would have been to put mini-humbuckers in it, but if they didn't have those, why not? Supply chain, or? Maybe they're no longer putting them in the single pickup version either. That's the only place we've ever found one.

Sorry that this happened to you with this bass, in any case. It definitely sucks.
 
I liked the pre-admission single coils better than the post-admission single coils.

lol we are so like this :rolleyes:

"the pre admissions had this sound where you felt they sounded like single coils but that part of your brain that read that they were humbuckers subconsciously morphed what you heard into a warmer humbucker like tone by way of placebo, giving you a nice round single coil sound. Where as post admissions just sound like single coils :yawn:"
 
OK, I get that this is a big deal to someone. Not to me.

I bet every one of these basses sounds exactly the way it did before the entire universe was shaken to its core by this "huge revelation."

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I think this is incorrect. For a scatter wound pickup like this, winding direction makes no difference. Visualize winding two pickups in opposite direction and set them side by side. They will be the same, except it changes which wire is buried at the bottom and which is on top. But that has no impact on the response of the coil to a moving magnetic field.

I think you can flip the bar magnet and swap the leads on one of the pickups and have a proper J-bass type configuration.
Eh? Winding direction makes no difference?
Ok.....
 
I think this is incorrect. For a scatter wound pickup like this, winding direction makes no difference. Visualize winding two pickups in opposite direction and set them side by side. They will be the same, except it changes which wire is buried at the bottom and which is on top. But that has no impact on the response of the coil to a moving magnetic field.

I think you can flip the bar magnet and swap the leads on one of the pickups and have a proper J-bass type configuration.

The current still flows in the opposite direction, though, scatter wound or not, if reverse wound. And even with scatter wound, reversing the connection isn't the same as reverse winding. If you have option A: wire X is +, and is at the bottom of the windings, and Y is at the top. Flipping X to be - reverses the direction of the current, but it's not quite the same as reverse wound. Perhaps it's good enough to reduce hum below problem levels, though.
 
It might be possible to get real mini-humbuckers for $100, assuming you were going to spend $100 on Gretsch bits and have then freed up $100 for other spending: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Obviously, that's a UK price as I am in the UK, but then it makes me wonder what the deal is for UK owners of these basses? UK consumer law is a lot stronger than in the USA, but given pricing, $100 wouldn't go as far. So do UK owners get £100? 5/11/- and a pat on the head? A signed photo of the Queen?
 
It might be possible to get real mini-humbuckers for $100, assuming you were going to spend $100 on Gretsch bits and have then freed up $100 for other spending: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Obviously, that's a UK price as I am in the UK, but then it makes me wonder what the deal is for UK owners of these basses? UK consumer law is a lot stronger than in the USA, but given pricing, $100 wouldn't go as far. So do UK owners get £100? 5/11/- and a pat on the head? A signed photo of the Queen?

Really someone should buy those pickups and take them apart just to be sure...
 
The current still flows in the opposite direction, though, scatter wound or not, if reverse wound. And even with scatter wound, reversing the connection isn't the same as reverse winding. If you have option A: wire X is +, and is at the bottom of the windings, and Y is at the top. Flipping X to be - reverses the direction of the current, but it's not quite the same as reverse wound. Perhaps it's good enough to reduce hum below problem levels, though.
Yeah the arrangement of the loops is different and will probably have some effect on the tone, but it will still provide the polarity switch you need for hum canceling.
 
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Yeah the arrangement of the loops is different and will probably have some effect on the tone, but it will still provide the polarity switch you need for hum canceling.

It might not be perfect, but then since a bridge and neck pickup are not generally the same, they won't cancel perfectly anyway. But then this bass has two bridge pickups, so it might do better :).
 
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I think this is incorrect. For a scatter wound pickup like this, winding direction makes no difference. Visualize winding two pickups in opposite direction and set them side by side. They will be the same, except it changes which wire is buried at the bottom and which is on top. But that has no impact on the response of the coil to a moving magnetic field.

I think you can flip the bar magnet and swap the leads on one of the pickups and have a proper J-bass type configuration.

I think I can help clarify this question:

There are two different components to any pickup that are both sources of signal, the magnets and the coils. The pole-peices are just functionally extentions of the magnet and serve to help propagate the magnetic field through the coil.

Now the magnet is sensing the vibrations in the string, and producing a current from that, which in turn is passed through the coil through the electronics and to the amp.

The coils themselves are also a sound source though, and can act like radio antennas, picking up inducted EM waves, like radio interference (less common now that most stations have switched over to narrowband), or the 60Hz hum of the EM field produced by the wiring of the venue, stage lighting, your house, whatever.

The reason why you want the windings to be opposite (which is, in fact achieved by reversing the hot and ground leads... physically flipping the pickup over would leave the chirality of the winding the same, like the coil on a bolt remains threaded the same rotational direction no matter the orientation).

With the 60Hz hum, we aren't concerned with the magnets yet. Just the coils and the inducted radio interference that generates the 60Hz hum. Reversing the windings will put the coils out of phase with one another, so they will both produce the same radio signal but with opposite direction, effectively cancelling each other out.

Now we are concerned with the magnets and how they sense the strings.

With the magnet polarity the same, and the windings reversed, that the signal from the string will ALSO be out of phase. With both pickups on, you will get low to no signal.

How to fix that?

Reverse the polarity of the magnet. So then you get destructive interference from the radio induction, and *constructive*interference from the magnet sensing the string.

Because physics and math, it's more likely for lower frequency waves to be close to matching up than high frequency waves, and because it's nearly impossible to get exactly the same length of coilwire, you do actually get a little bit of destructive interference in the very highest register, and more constructive interference in the lowest end of the spectrum.

Which is why humbuckers tend to sound fatter.

The same thing can be acheived with a dummy coil. Gibson used to have silent P-90s by creating a cavity in the guitar where a "dummy coil" that has no magnets would live.

You could do this by buying a cheap strat pickup or P90, and knocking out all the pole peices and removing the magnets, and then depending on the polarity of the gretsch pickups, wire the strat pickup after your toggle switch (between the volume and output jack, or between tone and master vol, whatever) in a way that it is opposite of the extant pickups (so either hot or ground, depending). There is certainly plenty of space in the control cavity for this, especially where they use the cheap tiny pots on the G2220.

And that should cut down the single coil hum quite a bit no matter what pickups are selected. The orientation actually doesn't matter, and it doesn't need to be anywhere near the strings.

Back to the topic though, nobody should have to do this for a bass advertized as having humbuckers.

Even the P-Bass has a split coil which is functionally acts as a humbucker.
 
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The reason why you want the windings to be opposite (which is, in fact achieved by reversing the hot and ground leads... physically flipping the pickup over would leave the chirality of the winding the same, like the coil on a bolt remains threaded the same rotational direction no matter the orientation).
It has been ages since I studied electronics, but from your description, I think just switching the leads on a single coil pickup is the electronic equivalent of physically turning the pickup upside down -- which means it's also the illustrative equivalent of turning a bolt upside down with the threads remaining the same. If the coils are right-hand wound, simply changing the leads doesn't make them left-hand wound. And the whichever-handed direction of the winding matters.

I couldn't tell you why it matters, at this point, but it does.
 
It has been ages since I studied electronics, but from your description, I think just switching the leads on a single coil pickup is the electronic equivalent of physically turning the pickup upside down -- which means it's also the illustrative equivalent of turning a bolt upside down with the threads remaining the same. If the coils are right-hand wound, simply changing the leads doesn't make them left-hand wound. And the whichever-handed direction of the winding matters.

I couldn't tell you why it matters, at this point, but it does.
Ah, well, I'm currently taking physics and we just covered this stuff fairly recently, so it's fresh in my mind!

I believe that what you have said is not correct. By switching the leads you are reversing the direction of the electrical flow, which reverses the rotational direction.

Think of a crazy straw with a spiral that rotates to the right from top to bottom. If you are sucking chocolate milk up it, and since it has a right hand chirality, the milk will twist left as it comes up through the straw. Then when you release the straw from your mouth, the milk will sink down and spin the opposite direction. By changing which end the milk is going into you change the direction that the milk turns. Switching the leads changes which end of the wire the electric potential is, or in the straw/milk example, it is essentially like putting all the milk in your mouth and then blowing it into the cup (gross!). But that would cause it to have opposite direction of rotation, is the point.

"Ah but AC goes back and forth!" you might say.

While AC does travel back and forth what matters is the direction of E--> in the moment. With the two pickups out of phase, they will be producing an induced radio interference signal that travels in opposite directions at each instant, cancelling out. By reversing the magnet, the EM eddies produced by the string moving through the magnetic fields will induce opposite currents, but with one coil being reversed, the signal from both pickups is always traveling in the same direction at the same time.

I hope that helps.
 
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