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Double Bass Upright Intonation
- Thread starter Ian Votaw
- Start date
devnulljp
Supporting Member
I don't have the luxury of a teacher where I live.
I play with a chromatic tuner in line and keep an eye on it. Helps me stay in tune, especially when I get out of my comfort zone of the first half of the fingerboard.
It's a crutch, I know, but it's helping me become more comfortable relatively quickly.
I play with a chromatic tuner in line and keep an eye on it. Helps me stay in tune, especially when I get out of my comfort zone of the first half of the fingerboard.
It's a crutch, I know, but it's helping me become more comfortable relatively quickly.
ears = burrito
tuner = TNC
Not kidding! Tuner ought to be a very short-lived crutch, IMO because training your ears is where it's at!
tuner = TNC
Not kidding! Tuner ought to be a very short-lived crutch, IMO because training your ears is where it's at!
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+1 on everything HDiddy said...but +2 on not looking at your hands.
I'm also relatively new to upright; have been playing for about a year (after over two decades playing bass guitar). My trouble with playing in tune had been pretty consistent until about two weeks ago, when I watched a great interview with Rob Hurst. The interviewer commented, "I notice you REFUSE to look at your hands..." and Rob said, "There ain't much to see!" I also love John Clayton of course, so it was great to read in HDiddy's post that John has the same approach. I think John and Rob are friends, after all.
Anyway that was a "lightbulb" moment for me. "OH! DUH." Since then my intonation has improved noticeably, and I find I am able to close my eyes and get lost in the music more easily when playing. And during practice, my pitch has been a lot more accurate.
I did notice that sometimes great players seem to look at their hands in thumb position though; is that because it's just where your head/eyes are naturally directed while in that position? Is it "OK" to look at your hands in thumb position? Thoughts?
Thanks for letting me piggyback on this post.
devnulljp
Supporting Member
I don't know what TNC is, and I know the tuner's a crutch. One day I'll turn it off after the bass is tuned but for now it keeps me in tune (and therefore in gigs). My ear and technique are improving with constant practice, so I probably don't actually need it but I like to have it available ... just in case.
FWIW, I've been playing electric bass for going on 40 years, picked up the standup for the first time a couple of years ago and was gigging with it within a month from a standing start. I needed all the help I could get
+1 on everything HDiddy said...but +2 on not looking at your hands.
I'm also relatively new to upright; have been playing for about a year (after over two decades playing bass guitar). My trouble with playing in tune had been pretty consistent until about two weeks ago, when I watched a great interview with Rob Hurst. The interviewer commented, "I notice you REFUSE to look at your hands..." and Rob said, "There ain't much to see!" I also love John Clayton of course, so it was great to read in HDiddy's post that John has the same approach. I think John and Rob are friends, after all.
Anyway that was a "lightbulb" moment for me. "OH! DUH." Since then my intonation has improved noticeably, and I find I am able to close my eyes and get lost in the music more easily when playing. And during practice, my pitch has been a lot more accurate.
I did notice that sometimes great players seem to look at their hands in thumb position though; is that because it's just where your head/eyes are naturally directed while in that position? Is it "OK" to look at your hands in thumb position? Thoughts?
Thanks for letting me piggyback on this post.
I love the quote "there ain't much to see". It summarizes a huge (and totally correct, IMO) point of view about bass technique in five words, which makes it pretty much gold in my book. My intonation improved greatly when I started playing with my eyes closed to minimize distraction. This also pertains to the "weaning yourself away from the real book" thread, since looking at/reading music utilizes a different part of the brain than simply hearing and imagining sound. On many gigs, especially as I get older, if there is a chart I'll glance at it to remember where the music goes on the portions of the tune that are "fuzzy" and then put it away or look away so I can focus on just hearing.
As regards the physical aspect of producing intonation, the time to look at your hands (IMO, of course) is in the practice room when "troubleshooting" technical issues in a mirror (or if you are very modern, watching a video recording of yourself playing). There you can see inefficient things happening that you might not be aware of while focusing on the sound while playing. This is part of what good teachers do, but you can also learn to catch some of these things yourself.
The problem with checking intonation for a pizz player is that the excursion of the string when plucking causes the note to go very sharp at the beginning of the envelope and then flatten out as the decay is happening. In my experience it's much better to eschew the tuner and get an aural feel for which part of the note is best felt as "in tune". As always, EEMMV.
Wonderful advice for an advanced player. Horrible for a beginner struggling with intonation.
There is no one answer, just a series of problems to solve.
Step one is left hand position. You wouldn't stand for broken tuners and the left hand is no different - it is your final physical tuning mechanism.
Tuning a functioning mechanism going to get you further than tuning a non-functioning mechanism. This doesn't mean you get out of using your ear, you just need to get the hand in order first. If you are grabbing the neck like a baseball bat, getting a couple notes in tune with a drone isn't going to help you improvise lines in tune on the spot with a full band.
In the beginning your eyes are your friend - LOOK at what you are doing. When your left hand looks like Chris Fitz's feel free to close your eyes all you want.
Playing in tune with a janky left hand is most people's problem. It can work at home, but won't get you far with the wide range of keys and tempos you need to play with others.
Once you can keep a solid position in your left hand AND make hairline adjustments go back to the beginning of this thread and follow ALL the advice, especially Simandl arco with a teacher.
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FWIW, when John said it, he was addressing a young beginning/intermediate orchestral player - not an adult. IIRC, they were playing something in TP at the time. I was kinda shocked myself but I think what he was doing was appropriate.
Thanks for all the helpful post here. Question- I've read a few references to "drones". What do you mean by that?
When people talk about drones with regard to practice, they simply mean playing along with a single reference pitch as means of checking intonation against an objective external source. Some people think this is useful, others do not. Here's one of the original threads on the subject. People feel very strongly about some of the issues involved and the discussion sometimes becomes contentious.
As a moderator of the forum, I have to concern myself with the contentiousness when it overflows into disrespect. On issues of technique, I have to believe that issues sometimes become contentious because people feel very strongly about what is good advice to give to others, and not because they are looking to disrespect or discredit those who disagree with a particular point of view. Damon and I both feel strongly about giving what we consider to be good advice, and have had to agree to disagree on numerous occasions. I disagree with his characterization of my advice as "horrible", but agree with his statement that "there is no one answer".
Ultimately, the beauty of the Talkbass community is that anyone reading can get a lot of different viewpoints, weigh them all in their own way, and make up their own mind after doing so. Regardless of how strongly I may feel about my own point of view, I always encourage anyone approaching this or any issue to examine it from as many perspectives as possible and thereby make an informed decision. Along those lines, I would encourage everyone reading this to consider all the varying points of view regarding intonation as part of the overall spectrum, then find your own natural place in it after doing so.
And to 'drone on' on the topic [ZING!]...
The OP's E/RMV (am I using that right?), but for me, the concept of not looking at my hands is making a huge difference. Granted, I am by no means an advanced upright player as I have just around a year under my belt on the instrument. I do not have a dedicated teacher now, but have been fortunate enough to have met a handful of skilled, experienced DB players, all of whom have been very generous in sharing their time and knowledge with me. Mainly I'm on my own for the time being, so in terms of progress and continuing on this path, it's kind of like panning for gold; I have to carefully examine my practice and rehearsal sessions, use that mirror, read lots of TB threads to scavenge information or hear others' experiences, and try to assess myself along the way.
Anyway I guess the intonation issues will continue, BUT: I like to put a drone on for just a minute or two in the beginning of my practice session to set the internal pitch. Someone in this thread has recommended singing a drone, as opposed to listening to the electronic drone. Today I tried singing the C drone during my C scale practice, *AFTER* listening to the electronic drone on my KORG KDM-2 (which is a great metronome/drone tuner, btw). I found that shutting off the electronic drone after a couples minutes helped me get the sound "in my ear," then I was able to sing the C note while bowing. It was pretty solid to my ear and it felt good. So for now I will keep using that drone initially in my practice session, then switch to just singing as I play the scales.
Everyone's ears and hands are different right? Anyway thanks all for your experiences.
Do you honestly stand by "closing your eyes and listening" as a step one? Also, it is even worse advice for young orchestra students, they get shoved in a room and made to read music the whole and usually need a lot of time doing scales and looking at what they are doing.
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However, unless you have perfect pitch and a known constant voice, the drone you are "singing" may not be truly accurate.
That is true. And I do not have perfect pitch. But in the key of C I can use the open G string (and the C harmonic on the G string) as a reference, which greatly aids my relative pitch.
Tuning the bass with a strobe tuner FIRST THING does wonders, too...
Not sure which of us you are referring to here, but if this comment were directed to me I would answer it this way:
The greatest teacher I ever had taught me to strive to understand the intent and sound of the music, and to let my technique flow from pursuing that sound. She showed me what she considered a number of proven approaches to different basic technical problems, but then added that none of them were "right" for everyone and that I would have to find my own way; I would make a number of "mistakes" along the way, but by making them and correcting them I would learn the lessons in an organic, holistic, and honest way. Her job, as she put it, was to be my tour guide to the music and to the instrument. She would always show me her "way" or approach to a particular issue first and stress it as what she believed, and for that I am grateful.
Short version: I believe that expectation of sound is paramount, and that hand shape and technique should always serve that master. Whether a person does this with their eyes closed or open is irrelevant.
Perfect Pitch is not a requirement for singing on pitch. Relative Pitch (sung) is a skill that can and should be developed and nurtured from day 1. Using external drones do nothing to improve one's (sung) Relative Pitch in the long run.
My concern is that the exclusive use of external drones seems to be supplanting the inner drone - the voice.
For a beginning/intermediate player, looking for techniques to take them to the next level, I would highly recommend singing, not using external drones.
IMO.
Thanks for your time, interest and civility.
That is true. And I do not have perfect pitch. But in the key of C I can use the open G string (and the C harmonic on the G string) as a reference, which greatly aids my relative pitch.
Tuning the bass with a strobe tuner FIRST THING does wonders, too...
...sorry, I meant the G HARMONIC on the open G, which is right over the fingered C.
JB Dyas likes to quote a study that claimed that students who watched their hands while learning scales learned them more quickly than students who did not. It's worth noting that JB plays exclusively fretted BG - very well, I might add - and I don't know if he teaches URB. In his quote, he's also not talking about intonation but learning scales.
IME, I found and still find it helpful to play with my eyes closed or in the dark, both for intonation and for developing a physical feel for where the notes are, especially leaps. OTOH, I think I've also learned scales and arps more quickly by watching my fingers while I play them and then visualizing and playing "air" bass when I'm away from my instrument.
IME, I found and still find it helpful to play with my eyes closed or in the dark, both for intonation and for developing a physical feel for where the notes are, especially leaps. OTOH, I think I've also learned scales and arps more quickly by watching my fingers while I play them and then visualizing and playing "air" bass when I'm away from my instrument.
