Double Bass Upright Intonation

[Chris Fitzgerald]

JB Dyas likes to quote a study that claimed that students who watched their hands while learning scales learned them more quickly than students who did not. It's worth noting that JB plays exclusively fretted BG - very well, I might add - and I don't know if he teaches URB. In his quote, he's also not talking about intonation but learning scales.

I've taught alongside JB for 20 years. He doesn't play upright at all, although he admires the instrument greatly. When he talks about watching the hands, he's talking about (as you say) "pattern mapping" the relationship of the notes in the scale to the layout on a fretted BG in 4ths tuning. FWIW, I find this concept very useful on the DB as a way to visualize how certain lines might lay out in a basic sense, but as you and I know all too well the DB is a different beast, and requires a whole different level of precision in the technique/intonation department to bright those ideas to musical fruition.

 

[damonsmith]

Just like is no one answer, there is no permanent solution, either. Looking at your hands is certainly not helpful after a certain point. Checking in periodically is a good idea.
Looking at your hands won't help you play in tune, looking at your hands will help build a good position, a good position is a good start to playing in tune.
Any advice that negates the value of physical technique is preposterous. Still, it isn't one or the other it is all of the above.
Find your weakness and work on that.
Anything, from a great ear to great left hand can turn into a problem.

I have a set of warm-ups where I can see what I am doing, then I do a lot of reading. I've been playing for 20+ years, so I what I do each day may not serve a beginner.

That whole line of "however you get the note doesn't matter as long as you get it" is short-sighted and riddled with problems ESPECIALLY for an improvisor.

As far as drones, I am by no means against it. I don't really feel like it should be primary, daily practice. Most of the benefits can be had by playing against the open strings and moving onto a proven classical method.

Also, if you want to go the no bow route, be ready for a long road ahead. Arco is the most proven route to good intonation.

 

[Tom Lane]

Thinking about this a bit more, it seems to me that the primary reason why watching your left hand on the URB is not very helpful for intonation is because most people's ability to detect slight differences in their finger placement isn't good enough. In my case, I don't think I can "see" a one millimeter difference in the placement of my pinky on my URB's neck but I can sure hear it. Another reason why I find fingerboard markings useless for me because if I use them, I'm rarely in tune, close maybe, but close usually makes me wince. If I use my ear plus a lot of repetition making that shift, eventually I get pretty consistently accurate, plus there are enough existing landmarks dividing up the bass neck that I don't find markings are necessary. I know some accomplished players who do use them and advocate them. Everybody's different.

 

[Jeshua]

Find your weakness and work on that.

Taken to heart. Thank you.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Someone in this thread has recommended singing a drone, as opposed to listening to the electronic drone. Today I tried singing the C drone during my C scale practice, *AFTER* listening to the electronic drone on my KORG KDM-2 (which is a great metronome/drone tauner, btw).

The bass has several built in drones that you can creatively figure out how to employ. The 4 most basic ones are the open strings (so long as the bass is in tune). Drone a note, play a note. Or Drone and note, play an arpeggio.

If you look at how voice is taught, at least through the little bit that I've seen and experienced through voice coaching for myself and others, vocal warm ups are mostly based around signing chord tones. If you can sing chord tones easily, it's a lot easier to create a sense of pitch expectation: the rest of the notes are the in-between of the chord tones.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

And dont' be afraid to use open strings for relative pitch exercises. I.e. D is the 5th of a G major chord.

The other thing I've been experimenting with has been to sing the note in my head and sing along with a recording (simandl is good for this). Then when it comes time to play it on the bass, sing the note in your head before it gets played. Over time, you can shorten the time between the note is sung and played, and hopefully be able to make the instrument disappear (what you sing automatically comes out on the bass as you sang it).

This has an interesting effect when working with written etudes or songs, as you're no longer responding to the instrument to see if you're in tune or not; you nave an expectation of what it should be and moving the instruments pitch to match. So if something is wrong, it's either purely technique or your'e out of tune in your head.

 

[Les Fret]

What I didn't read so far here is that intonation is also about a succession of tones. How many of you can play a G on the E string with 100% accuracy all the time? (I mean out of the blue without playing any note before it). Especially without looking but also with looking. Same goes for every other note. Now if you play a succession of tones intonating that G is much easier. That is if you have good hand position and good ear.

Also you have to be able to make small adjustments on the fly if you hear that you are a bit off. The faster you can do that the better. If you can adjust fast other people might not even notice. So you constantly listen to the other instruments and adjust your pitch accordingly.

As an additional exercise you set a drone to E for example (or use the open E string as reference). Now out of the blue play a high E in TP on the G string, listen for the tone for while and adjust if necessary. Now jump from there to the E (2nd 'fret') on the D string. Next to the E (7th 'fret') on the A string and so on playing all E's on the entire bass with big jumps. This makes you remember where to the notes are physically. Very hard to get that exactly in tune.

 

[Don Kasper]

I think this clearly summarizes my beliefs and practices regarding this topic...

 

[Don Kasper]

Can we all agree that the term "singing", when used in discussing Intonation, will mean "outloud", NOT "in your head"? Intonation (good and bad), should be a visceral, not an imaginary, experience.
Singing (only) "in your head" can be deceptive and may lead to these kinds of delusions:

 

[Don Kasper]

How many of you can play a G on the E string with 100% accuracy all the time?

Here is another game that can be played - (after tuning your bass), play (arco) that low G on the E string, and see if your open G string is sympathetically vibrating (as the 1st partial of the overtone series). You should see (and hear) that open G string responding/vibrating to the low G being played. If not, that low G is not spot-on.
Here is another - play the G on the A string, the one that is a step below the A harmonic (1st partial). Your open G string should be visibly vibrating sympathetically, as this is a UNISON. You can find the sweet spot by moving (slightly?) the stopped G until the open G string is vibrating/sounding.
(Pizz Only players are at a real disadvantage here - the arco note has a nice consistent energy, amplitude and duration, that allows the player to fine tune and find the sweet spot.)
Thanks, Mr. Physics!

 

[Huy Nguyen]

What I didn't read so far here is that intonation is also about a succession of tones. How many of you can play a G on the E string with 100% accuracy all the time? (I mean out of the blue without playing any note before it). Especially without looking but also with looking. Same goes for every other note. Now if you play a succession of tones intonating that G is much easier. That is if you have good hand position and good ear.

In the end I think it's a game of percentages: some amount of building a familiar hand shape, building a familiar relationship to the neck, and building an ear sense. Having owned and played on a number of fretless instruments (DB of different string lengths, fretless EB) it seems easier to switch if you allow the body to naturally adjust, but you do still have to build a strong reference point to one instrument in particular. On my regular 42" string length bass, I've worked on hitting D and the G octave on the G string pretty consistently, but there's always the few intstances where it'll be off. Far harder if I don't know what it sounds like in my head because it just two out of the three elements mentioned in the first sentence.

As an additional exercise you set a drone to E for example (or use the open E string as reference). Now out of the blue play a high E in TP on the G string, listen for the tone for while and adjust if necessary. Now jump from there to the E (2nd 'fret') on the D string. Next to the E (7th 'fret') on the A string and so on playing all E's on the entire bass with big jumps. This makes you remember where to the notes are physically. Very hard to get that exactly in tune.

I'll try this but I think the wisdom espoused by Klinghoffer (which probably came from Gary Karr) I've found extremely helpful in this regard. It's the video about finger replacement that I posted in an earlier thread. I've chosen certain tones to master (D and G octave on G string) and I've gotten good enough to feel a certain level of confidence in it but now there are X number of other tones in other octaves that need work now.

 

[jsf729]

When people talk about drones with regard to practice, they simply mean playing along with a single reference pitch as means of checking intonation against an objective external source. Some people think this is useful, others do not. Here's one of the original threads on the subject. People feel very strongly about some of the issues involved and the discussion sometimes becomes contentious.

As a moderator of the forum, I have to concern myself with the contentiousness when it overflows into disrespect. On issues of technique, I have to believe that issues sometimes become contentious because people feel very strongly about what is good advice to give to others, and not because they are looking to disrespect or discredit those who disagree with a particular point of view. Damon and I both feel strongly about giving what we consider to be good advice, and have had to agree to disagree on numerous occasions. I disagree with his characterization of my advice as "horrible", but agree with his statement that "there is no one answer".

Ultimately, the beauty of the Talkbass community is that anyone reading can get a lot of different viewpoints, weigh them all in their own way, and make up their own mind after doing so. Regardless of how strongly I may feel about my own point of view, I always encourage anyone approaching this or any issue to examine it from as many perspectives as possible and thereby make an informed decision. Along those lines, I would encourage everyone reading this to consider all the varying points of view regarding intonation as part of the overall spectrum, then find your own natural place in it after doing so.

Thank-you Chris. Basically what I figured, but started to get a bit confused after reading about various apps that are available. Little did I know that I have been using one form of drone- the one "built in" to the bass all along! But this thread has opened my eyes up to the other forms of drones- the one "in your head (singing)" as well as the other apps as well as "looping" drones. I plan on experimenting with all forms. Ultimately- as others have said- you'll find what works best for yourself. Thanks to all.

 

[Tom Lane]

Thank-you Chris. Basically what I figured, but started to get a bit confused after reading about various apps that are available. Little did I know that I have been using one form of drone- the one "built in" to the bass all along! But this thread has opened my eyes up to the other forms of drones- the one "in your head (singing)" as well as the other apps as well as "looping" drones. I plan on experimenting with all forms. Ultimately- as others have said- you'll find what works best for yourself. Thanks to all.

Related to this: a fun, and I thought instructive, thing to do is to pick a Minor mode, say D Dorian Minor and start playing some sort of open riff - open in the sense of lots of rhythmic space - and then start soloing using that mode. Essentially, you're "droning" an open string, so... great pitch reference. I started doing this when I was trying to learn the Minor scales. I think it helped me lock that reference pitch in my mind's ear, and I learned how to make musical movement within a limited harmonic environment, and, I found it great for intonation and learning to hear how the notes of the scale sound against reference pitch. Fun to do on the piano too. I think Keith Jarrett made a career out of it.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Related to this: a fun, and I thought instructive, thing to do is to pick a Minor mode, say D Dorian Minor and start playing some sort of open riff - open in the sense of lots of rhythmic space - and then start soloing using that mode. Essentially, you're "droning" an open string, so... great pitch reference. I started doing this when I was trying to learn the Minor scales. I think it helped me lock that reference pitch in my mind's ear, and I learned how to make musical movement within a limited harmonic environment, and, I found it great for intonation and learning to hear how the notes of the scale sound against reference pitch. Fun to do on the piano too. I think Keith Jarrett made a career out of it.

Gmin7/D, G7/D, Gmaj7/D
Bb7/D, Bbmaj7/D, Bmi7/D
etc. etc.

 

[Tom Lane]

Gmin7/D, G7/D, Gmaj7/D
Bb7/D, Bbmaj7/D, Bmi7/D
etc. etc.

And your point is?

 

[Michael Karn]

Related to this: a fun, and I thought instructive, thing to do is to pick a Minor mode, say D Dorian Minor and start playing some sort of open riff - open in the sense of lots of rhythmic space - and then start soloing using that mode. Essentially, you're "droning" an open string, so... great pitch reference. I started doing this when I was trying to learn the Minor scales. I think it helped me lock that reference pitch in my mind's ear, and I learned how to make musical movement within a limited harmonic environment, and, I found it great for intonation and learning to hear how the notes of the scale sound against reference pitch. Fun to do on the piano too. I think Keith Jarrett made a career out of it.

I have a solo arrangement of Bill Lee's tune John Coltrane that i'm working on, and it's in E minor with the open E ringing through most of it, and the effect and challenge of it is exactly what you're talking about. And i work with a great singer named Vanessa Perea and we do Every Time We Say Goodbye as a duo in A major, and i've worked out a lot of stuff against the open A, E, and D strings. Let me tell you, you can really tell how much i've been practicing when we do it

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Gmin7/D, G7/D, Gmaj7/D
Bb7/D, Bbmaj7/D, Bmi7/D
etc. etc.

Uses of a open string drone.

 

[Jon Stefaniak]

To op, good intonation is something you work toward every time you pick up the bass. Consistency of Space (position, hand shape), movement and timing will lead to better consistency in your intonation.

Playing against a drone is not the best advice for someone working with keyboards or guitar. If you are tuning harmonic intervals, OK, but it is best to start with the equal temperament as a baseline goal. You could work with a chromatic tuner.

Simandle might help your hand shape, but try tackling the problem from as many angles as possible. Learn the A in first position. Learn where that D is at the heel of the neck with the first finger. The G,D and high g in thumb position. Where are the tuning harmonics? Use them as references. Simandle builds up positions from the bottom step by step. But having strong points of reference all around the bass is just as necessary.
Play Scales and Arpeggios. Pizz, Arco. Play up one string and across the strings. Chromatic scales. Play fifths -there's a nice petracchi exercise for that hand shape. Shifting drills on intervals.
Try everything, a little at a time. Devote a small chunk of your practice time to this goal everyday and work to improve something.
Hope that's helpful.

Oh, for what it is worth, I like to watch what I'm doing, usually in a mirror. Look for consistent hand shapes and arm/body posture.

But you should give everything a try. Look at your hands, look in a mirror, blindfold yourself and try moving around the bass. Use all your senses, concepts, labeling, naming. Name the notes you are playing. Name the positions. Name the hand shapes. Think about what makes an efficient fingering, and practice it. The more footholds you get in it, the better it sticks. I'm not saying to over complicate things, but this is a matter of memory and skill, not something your hands do automatically.
Ok, I've gone on long enough.

 

[damonsmith]

You can see if you are holding your position or not, you can see if your hand is closing at each pitch change or not.
For jazz and improvised music I advocate holding your position, some say it is a waste of energy, and for a classical work you know inside and out it may be, for improvised music of any kind that may turn on a dime I say it is energy well spent.
In 20 years of teaching I've met one one student with a great left hand out of the gate (a left handed person!) and exactly zero who couldn't hear basic pitch enough to know whether a scale or Simandl etude was out of tune or not - we really are not as different as we want to think.

The question I always ask is, "can you not hear it or not play it?". We get out the tuner and sing the line, if that isn't on or close we work on that, next we look at the positions and shifts - most of the time the problem is there.

One reason is that our bodies want to "dance" with the music - and we need to but it needs to be choreographed. Many movements required to play well can be out of time and tempo of the line, for example most people feel shifting should always be fast regardless of the tempo of the music.

Thinking about this a bit more, it seems to me that the primary reason why watching your left hand on the URB is not very helpful for intonation is because most people's ability to detect slight differences in their finger placement isn't good enough. In my case, I don't think I can "see" a one millimeter difference in the placement of my pinky on my URB's neck but I can sure hear it. Another reason why I find fingerboard markings useless for me because if I use them, I'm rarely in tune, close maybe, but close usually makes me wince. If I use my ear plus a lot of repetition making that shift, eventually I get pretty consistently accurate, plus there are enough existing landmarks dividing up the bass neck that I don't find markings are necessary. I know some accomplished players who do use them and advocate them. Everybody's different.

 

[damonsmith]

I want to address the common issues in the left hand before leaving this.

It is obviously a combination between ear and body - the closer your body gets to the note the better the ear can help. If you hand isn't hitting the right note the hand isn't doing it's job. Here are the common problems in a regular 124 Simandl half position (Ab, A, Bb on the g string).
1. Not opening the whole hand enough so both half steps and the whole step are off.
2. Opening the hand incorrectly but getting the whole step right or close by opening the whole hand between index and the pinky thus making the middle half step off.

The correct opening for most normal adults is a big stretch between the index and middle with the other two fingers relaxed.
This will give you the correct spacing for all three half steps. A good way to build this is to build your position from the first two half steps on each string. (Ab-A, Eb-E, Bb-b, F-Gb) with the index and middle fingers. Start your practice with the first two fingers before adding the pinky. Learn to hear the half steps.