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Double Bass Upright Intonation
- Thread starter Ian Votaw
- Start date
True, that.Until that honky tonk gig comes along and the questionably tuned piano drives you crazy…
My biggest problem isn't out of tune instruments as long as they're roughly at modern pitch. I had a gig once where they wanted me to play all kinds of things in keys other than the written one by using the transpose function of the keyboard. I didn't last too long at that one because I am incapable of doing that. Everyone's different - I'm able to tolerate Baroque pitch, so if I play an A and an Ab comes out, I can live with that, but that's as far as I'm able to go. I'm like a deer in the headlights if I have to play on a transposing keyboard.
-S-
I love it!
Two and a half years ago a member asked a simple question for some tips on developing accurate intonation and fast forward to now and there are 7 pages full of them by people that have dealt with this for all of their professional careers.
This is encouraging and so helpful. Thanks, all.
Two and a half years ago a member asked a simple question for some tips on developing accurate intonation and fast forward to now and there are 7 pages full of them by people that have dealt with this for all of their professional careers.
This is encouraging and so helpful. Thanks, all.
I just picked upright back up after 10 yrs and am practicing with a chromatic tuner to get my chops back.. The thing I noticed was a 10 cent difference between pizz and arco [ on open strings]. So, like you I will be practicing pizz and arco separately for intonation.. But for the musical I'm doing [which is mostly pizz], I plan to tune the bass to pizz and then use more vibrato for the few arco notes.. I went looking on the forum for confirmation like you gave that the two are indeed different. Would love to know more about <why> there is such a difference.
Lots of fine advice.
LTTP;
A couple of things that help me. Augmenting other classical practice. With a goal of more accurate pitch and improved automaticity.
First, it might help to understand an approach but related to time rather than pitch. In 4/4 time, you might practice half notes with a metronome beating quarter notes at 100, 1 2 3 4. And bassist playing halfnotes on 1 3 1 3…. But that metronome just tells you right or wrong, early/late, not necessarily training your musical INTENTION in terms of playing time. You know, from within. Because your basically a follower. So set your metronome on 50, and have that being beats 2 and 4. Play those same half notes notes on 1 and 3 and your intention is to make those beats 2 and 4 sound right. Make the metronome sound like it’s grooving. And you can vary this practice by just having it beat 4, make that groove, or have the beat signifying every “and”. Same idea in terms of where your intention is. And then, jazz, Try mentally hearing the metronome as the swung triplet “and”. And make it swing by how you place your on-beats. Again the focus is on your time intention to make it swing, versus just matching the external time.
Just like you can’t expect playing half notes only with the metronome on-beat and expect that the rest of your internal sense of time time improves; you can’t expect to play in tune by just matching a bass pitch to a piano pitch or drone.
Roughly equivalent exercise in pitch, use the drone set on a high G and play a low G. Fine tune your note to make that relationship to the high G ring as a clear octave interval. Play the low C, similarly get that perfect 5th to ring. Similarly for other intervals 4th, maj 3rds … minor 7ths etc. again with the high G drone play simple scale or arpeggios and focus on your intention to make that interval ring, even dissonant minor seconds and major sevenths. Now change the drone to a high D. That same G on the bass is actually played a few cents lower to make a perfect 5th ring out. Similarly for other notes on a G scale, each will be slightly higher or lower because pitches differ depending on key. Not every A is 440. Progress to playing parts of arpeggios etc. with each in relative intonation for the interval. Different from exercises where you are just matching an external pitch, you’re training the ear to listen for relationships and training your fingers to microadjust to make intervals sound.
Another tip for grabbing a larger interval out of thin air, like a shift from half position G# to a higher position D# or F# , is to “measure” up the fingerboard each of the half step clusters like G# A A#, A# B C, etc. Walk-in’ it up can help train the brain, hand and arm to recall the distance. Rather then depend on visual distances from tape or fingerboard markers. Of course once your arrive, you still have to listen and adjust.
Record yourself on short passages, and you’ll hear things to improve. Video record and you might see things in your hand position that are contributing. That’s what the trained ear and eye of a teacher catch easily. But you can hear and see a lot too from the recording, as it can be tough to really track detail when looking your hand or in a mirror while simuktaneously playing. Short passages, even a few seconds.
LTTP;
A couple of things that help me. Augmenting other classical practice. With a goal of more accurate pitch and improved automaticity.
First, it might help to understand an approach but related to time rather than pitch. In 4/4 time, you might practice half notes with a metronome beating quarter notes at 100, 1 2 3 4. And bassist playing halfnotes on 1 3 1 3…. But that metronome just tells you right or wrong, early/late, not necessarily training your musical INTENTION in terms of playing time. You know, from within. Because your basically a follower. So set your metronome on 50, and have that being beats 2 and 4. Play those same half notes notes on 1 and 3 and your intention is to make those beats 2 and 4 sound right. Make the metronome sound like it’s grooving. And you can vary this practice by just having it beat 4, make that groove, or have the beat signifying every “and”. Same idea in terms of where your intention is. And then, jazz, Try mentally hearing the metronome as the swung triplet “and”. And make it swing by how you place your on-beats. Again the focus is on your time intention to make it swing, versus just matching the external time.
Just like you can’t expect playing half notes only with the metronome on-beat and expect that the rest of your internal sense of time time improves; you can’t expect to play in tune by just matching a bass pitch to a piano pitch or drone.
Roughly equivalent exercise in pitch, use the drone set on a high G and play a low G. Fine tune your note to make that relationship to the high G ring as a clear octave interval. Play the low C, similarly get that perfect 5th to ring. Similarly for other intervals 4th, maj 3rds … minor 7ths etc. again with the high G drone play simple scale or arpeggios and focus on your intention to make that interval ring, even dissonant minor seconds and major sevenths. Now change the drone to a high D. That same G on the bass is actually played a few cents lower to make a perfect 5th ring out. Similarly for other notes on a G scale, each will be slightly higher or lower because pitches differ depending on key. Not every A is 440. Progress to playing parts of arpeggios etc. with each in relative intonation for the interval. Different from exercises where you are just matching an external pitch, you’re training the ear to listen for relationships and training your fingers to microadjust to make intervals sound.
Another tip for grabbing a larger interval out of thin air, like a shift from half position G# to a higher position D# or F# , is to “measure” up the fingerboard each of the half step clusters like G# A A#, A# B C, etc. Walk-in’ it up can help train the brain, hand and arm to recall the distance. Rather then depend on visual distances from tape or fingerboard markers. Of course once your arrive, you still have to listen and adjust.
Record yourself on short passages, and you’ll hear things to improve. Video record and you might see things in your hand position that are contributing. That’s what the trained ear and eye of a teacher catch easily. But you can hear and see a lot too from the recording, as it can be tough to really track detail when looking your hand or in a mirror while simuktaneously playing. Short passages, even a few seconds.
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I remember a guy in the olden days who could only play in F# ( I had played with a couple of guys who were self-taught and claimed that the keys (notes ) stood out while they were learning) and one would have his bass players tune their strings F# etc. to make it easier for them to follow him.
BobDeRosa
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- May 16, 2012
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Fretlessness requires constant effort. One of the most accurate comments I've ever heard is: Miss one day of practice and you know it. Miss two days and your bandmates know it. Miss three days and everybody knows it.
I've heard this in relation to trumpets and trumpet players.
For me, up to about third position sticks even if I don't play for a while. After that, it gets steadily worse ...
-S-
Bud Herseth, former 1st trumpet with the Chicago symphony is reported to have said that years ago. I first heard it over 30 years ago at at tuba symposium.
I heard it because my son's first major in college was trumpet and his teacher was another powerhouse orchestral trumpet player, Vince Penzarella. I am something of a dilettante trumpeter myself. The only way I improve is play once or twice a day, with rarely a day missed. If I miss a few days, playing again feels like starting the instrument all over again, and it takes a few days to get my chops back. And if I don't miss a few days very often, overall, I get better - been doing that for the last few months and I am indeed playing better.
The theory I've heard, so far as brass instruments are concerned, is that the small muscles involved in the embouchure must be trained very often, the opposite of big things like your back and legs, which is why many lifters will perform big lifts - squat, deadlift - only once a week, where that frequency can be enough. NB: no science claimed here.
-S-
The theory I've heard, so far as brass instruments are concerned, is that the small muscles involved in the embouchure must be trained very often, the opposite of big things like your back and legs, which is why many lifters will perform big lifts - squat, deadlift - only once a week, where that frequency can be enough. NB: no science claimed here.
-S-
No one plays perfectly in tune. Playing upright for me is a never ending lesson in adjusting fingers, posture, and intent.
You are most likely on the right path, but you need to “adjust” your expectations regarding your experience.
Enjoy the experience of it … That’s the core of this thing called muziek.
You are most likely on the right path, but you need to “adjust” your expectations regarding your experience.
Enjoy the experience of it … That’s the core of this thing called muziek.
I have no idea who said it first and am not sure that it truly matters, but I heard Maynard say that around ‘73 or ‘74.
Regardless of origin, there is a generous helping of wisdom and reality in those statements for those who just starting their journey of learning.
There is truth here, but the whole this is also misleading. I often tune my G up to A, and play "solo bass" melodic lines during free improvisation. Since it was tuned up on the fly, I do use the above method to play.
On the other hand, I saw Quarrington rip through a violin sonata live with no slithering around at all. He also held more than on major first chair position that required him to be right on.
Improvisors can learn a lot from the classical players, but at the end of the day they have solid music to use as a backbone - our music is more of a moving target so we need more solid systems to work from.
Checking in with a tuner is good, practicing with one is not great. Same with drones - they are useful but not if you use them the whole time. Multi-tasking is the enemy of progress.
I used to agree with this as well. Then Lauren Pierce recommended drones and I didn't argue. Used responsibly, meaning a portion of practice with all focus on the pitches and the drone, they work wonders. My work requires precision beyond the twelve tones and drones improved my precision all around.
Treating anything as one answer or a silver bullet is always a mistake, still, 5-10min of drones and scales will help anyone.
Re: "floaties/drones"...
Of course the real-world test is how well you swim (sink?) without wearing floaties, and how well in tune (horribly out of tune?) you play without the presence of a drone.
Q: Do they make drone apps with a user-wearable shock collar? They should - that might be useful.
IMFO, of course.
Thanks.
Of course the real-world test is how well you swim (sink?) without wearing floaties, and how well in tune (horribly out of tune?) you play without the presence of a drone.
Q: Do they make drone apps with a user-wearable shock collar? They should - that might be useful.
IMFO, of course.
Thanks.
Regarding the Casals quote-I think he is referring to just intonation. An F# tuned a perfect fifth up from a B will be sharp if you play that same F# over a D. Am I opening up a whole new can of worms?
Exactly, it should just be used as a way to practice matching a pitch and playing in relation to a pitch. So using a whole scale and not just the pitch of the a drone is a good idea. It shouldn't be used to try to get that specific pitch in your head, that won't help at all.
The basic western tempered system is a multi dimensional tuning system from the start in that it contains the 12 tempered pitches and all of their overtones. The good news is it works fine and two systems are far from being at odds with each other. They work beautifully together.
