Vertical cab stacking---the only way to play

[droskobass]

I have a 210 and I can't wait to get a second one to start doing the vertical array.

When I'm onstage, and my bass is going through the PA, I have 2 opposing concerns.

1) I want to hear myself as clearly as possible (so that I'll play dynamically with the band, without fret buzz from digging in too hard)

2) I want to keep my amp volume as low as possible to keep the stage volume low, so I don't bleed into other mics, and so I can hear the rest of the band and keep the overall volume as low as possible.

It's a balance, and I've found with a 410 the best way is usually to elevate it to ear level. (sure I lose "low end" but the pa is taking care of that) and in my experience, when I step off stage while playing with a long patch chord, that low end is gone anyway.

I'm sure that by using the 2 x (2x10) vertical array, I’ll be able to get closer to both goals (being heard and creating the least Noise) while still coupling with the floor. It's a win-win-win (no chairs required)

 

[Rob Martinez]

I am not a fan of the 10,000 watt amp, 1 10" speaker club.

Where can I get one of those????

Just kidding!

 

[JimmyM]

I am not a fan of the 10,000 watt amp, 1 10" speaker club.

Boy, I would be if it truly worked and didn't weigh 100 lbs.

I must admit I did the 300 watt amp, 1 12" speaker club thing tonight, though. I woke up late and had to rush to the gig, so I just brought my Markbass Mini 12" combo and set it up on the floor of the stage. Then I remembered what Bill said about not really losing any low end response but gaining your highs and mids back if you tilt it, so I tilted it pretty far back, and doggone it, he was right. I had a great full range sound aimed up at my head and didn't lose any bottom in the process. Bill, I must say you know your speaker science

Drosko, it truly is a win-win-win. I like a good 4-10" but after doing the single vertical row stacking thing, you really see how inefficient and inadequate it really is. Two 2-10"s stacked vertically > one square 4-10". By a longshot.

 

[ErnieD]

I stacked my 2 GB212T's with my GBE750 amp tonite for the first time ever at our NYE gig. WOW, it was kinda sorta in my face kinda tone. I was standing about 3'-4' from my stack and I was hearing ME so much for a change, No PA support for me as usual. The singer walked out in front during a instrumental tune and told me to turn up, never heard that before. The room was a very long, concrete floored, very tall ceiling, sorta like a barn but nicer, lol. I dialed up my volume on my 55-02 just a bit, I felt I was plenty loud and was hesitant to go up much more. The bass was really in my ear with the cabs stacked this way, I even had both tweeters dialed down to only about 10%. I did like my tone later as I tweaked it more but I think Im gonna have to get used to hearing myself this clearly for awhile. Next gig the rig will be further behind me and I think that will tell the tale if this setup will work for me. It wasn't a bad sound just different, but I could learn to like it real quick.
Feliz Nuevo Ano, Y'all

 

[JimmyM]

If you're used to cabs on the floor, it can be a tad disconcerting at first. But at least you'll know that what you're hearing is what the audience is hearing, and that's the main idea behind it.

 

[elros]

I started doing it after reading Rick Turner's column on it.

I remember also reading that in Bass Player probably about ten years ago. It was interesting reading it, it opened my eyes (and ears) to how things sound different at different distances from my bass rig. And also it got me interested in acoustics generally.

And here's my vertically stacked rig, at home:

It isn't tall enough for me when I'm playing standing up, but mostly I sit anyway....

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Well, yeah, but you're talking house systems. I'm talking rock groups today that hang huge systems and lighting rigs from the ceiling, before 1976 and WINGS OVER AMERICA, those were on the side of the stage, and lights were usually on poles or some other such rig.

My system wasn't exactly huge, but it was hung where the room permitted it. I can't remember if the first place I hung my PA was the Ramada in Columbus or the Marriott in Milwaukee or whichever of the hundred odd rooms I played when I was on the road, but the year was 1973, so I beat Sir Paul by 3 years. The main reason why touring systems weren't hung then was the same as why most bar bands didn't hang theirs: set-up time. In those days a pro-tour crew might have been six to eight guys. My road crew was me.

 

[joegeezer]

Bill, what was the name of your band back then?

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Bill, what was the name of your band back then?

The Sidewalk Arcade. Never recorded, but we made a living.

 

[musicman7722]

Boy, I would be if it truly worked and didn't weigh 100 lbs.

I must admit I did the 300 watt amp, 1 12" speaker club thing tonight, though. I woke up late and had to rush to the gig, so I just brought my Markbass Mini 12" combo and set it up on the floor of the stage. Then I remembered what Bill said about not really losing any low end response but gaining your highs and mids back if you tilt it, so I tilted it pretty far back, and doggone it, he was right. I had a great full range sound aimed up at my head and didn't lose any bottom in the process. Bill, I must say you know your speaker science

Drosko, it truly is a win-win-win. I like a good 4-10" but after doing the single vertical row stacking thing, you really see how inefficient and inadequate it really is. Two 2-10"s stacked vertically > one square 4-10". By a longshot.

Jimmy - a custom cut milk crate is the answer, tilts the amp back and doesn't cause any blockage of the back port of the CMD 121p.

 

[JimmyM]

I'm gonna cause some blockage in your back port if you don't stop with the milk crate!!!!

 

[Geddyfleaharris]

I just found this thread and have not read all the posts. But by vertically stacking are you talking about how I put my 115 on the bottom, my 410 on top of the 115 and then my rack on top of the 410???? If yes then I guess I haven't been paying attention because that is how I have always done things and assumed everybody else did too LOL.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I just found this thread and have not read all the posts. But by vertically stacking are you talking about how I put my 115 on the bottom, my 410 on top of the 115 and then my rack on top of the 410?

More precisely, it deals with why you shouldn't have a 4x10 but two 2x10s instead, though in your case a 1x15 and one 2x10 is probably adequate.

 

[JimmyM]

I wonder how long it will take for the cab makers to start coming out with vertical designs that really exploit the advantages rather than our ad hoc method of doing it now. Hopefully they're reading these threads and taking notice...

 

[KJung]

I wonder how long it will take for the cab makers to start coming out with vertical designs that really exploit the advantages rather than our ad hoc method of doing it now. Hopefully they're reading these threads and taking notice...

Actually, there are very few 'non vertical' designs on the market. Virtually all 2x12 designs are vertical (offset, but vertically configured), many 210's are vertical (i.e., the badging is oriented to suggest a vertical footprint), 2x15 cabs have been vertical for years. Also, a number of multi driver cabs use 'offset' speaker designs (AG412, Bag End 410, Berg610,etc.), which is close to the vertical configuration you are describing.

Really the only cabs out there that aren't in a pure 'vertical' configuration are 410 cabs, which are still my favorites for 'size per volume', etc. While comb filtering is real, I've found very little difference between the off axis performance of my 410's versus my 210's vertically stacked or my 2 x 112's vertically stacked.

Of course, the height of a stack makes the stage monitoring sound quite different if you are standing close to the cabs, but this is more due to the top cab being closer to your ear, which can be both a good (e.g., being able to hear yourself better) and bad (having the tweeter close to your ear 'fooling' you into thinking those frequencies are reaching the audience, since a full room seems to absorb upper freq's more efficiently than bass).

IMO and IME.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I wonder how long it will take for the cab makers to start coming out with vertical designs that really exploit the advantages rather than our ad hoc method of doing it now. Hopefully they're reading these threads and taking notice...

The market gets what the market wants. Trapezoidal PA cabs for horizontal clustering never worked, but dominated the PA market for three decades because that's what the customers wanted to buy. Line array PAs own the pro-touring sound market today because today's pro-touring sound engineers know what works, and what doesn't. There are no low end line array PAs yet, and very few in the middle of the market, because people buying in those price ranges buy their gear based primarily on the basis of what 'looks good', ie., what they're used to seeing. The same applies to the average player, both bass and guitar, even at the top of the heap. In the '60s you couldn't give away a '59 Les Paul until Jimmy Page and Mike Bloomfield started using them. Line array bass cabs won't take off until and unless the likes of Les or Flea start using them.

 

[JimmyM]

Actually, there are very few 'non vertical' designs on the market. Virtually all 2x12 designs are vertical (offset, but vertically configured), many 210's are vertical (i.e., the badging is oriented to suggest a vertical footprint), 2x15 cabs have been vertical for years. Also, a number of multi driver cabs use 'offset' speaker designs (AG412, Bag End 410, Berg610,etc.), which is close to the vertical configuration you are describing.

Really the only cabs out there that aren't in a pure 'vertical' configuration are 410 cabs, which are still my favorites for 'size per volume', etc. While comb filtering is real, I've found very little difference between the off axis performance of my 410's versus my 210's vertically stacked or my 2 x 112's vertically stacked.

Of course, the height of a stack makes the stage monitoring sound quite different if you are standing close to the cabs, but this is more due to the top cab being closer to your ear, which can be both a good (e.g., being able to hear yourself better) and bad (having the tweeter close to your ear 'fooling' you into thinking those frequencies are reaching the audience, since a full room seems to absorb upper freq's more efficiently than bass).

IMO and IME.

Personally, I find stage monitoring much easier by having a cab in the ear. I figure it something is offending me, it's got to be offending them. And when I get offstage, my suspicions are always confirmed. But if it's on the ground, all the offensive sounds blow right past me, so I can't do anything about it without hopping on and off the stage. For me it works. IMOIMEYMMVROFLMAOMOUSE.

And your point about some cabs already being designed vertically is taken. But so many of them just seem like they're horizontal cabs turned on end without thought into what could best be done to exploit the format. For example, would the tweeter sound better on top of the vertical stack or in between the 2-10"s? I say on top, yet most of them are built with the tweeter in the middle. Small thing I know, but it's one example.

Also, safety has to come into play. Sometimes a vertical stack can get a little precarious. Maybe they could design cabs with a little more support than interleaving amp corners. Many vertical designs can't withstand anything more than a minor bump without toppling. Mine certainly can't.

 

[KJung]

Personally, I find stage monitoring much easier by having a cab in the ear. I figure it something is offending me, it's got to be offending them. And when I get offstage, my suspicions are always confirmed. But if it's on the ground, all the offensive sounds blow right past me, so I can't do anything about it without hopping on and off the stage. For me it works. IMOIMEYMMVROFLMAOMOUSE.

And your point about some cabs already being designed vertically is taken. But so many of them just seem like they're horizontal cabs turned on end without thought into what could best be done to exploit the format. For example, would the tweeter sound better on top of the vertical stack or in between the 2-10"s? I say on top, yet most of them are built with the tweeter in the middle. Small thing I know, but it's one example.

Also, safety has to come into play. Sometimes a vertical stack can get a little precarious. Maybe they could design cabs with a little more support than interleaving amp corners. Many vertical designs can't withstand anything more than a minor bump without toppling. Mine certainly can't.

Good points and I agree.

 

[smogg]

And your point about some cabs already being designed vertically is taken. But so many of them just seem like they're horizontal cabs turned on end without thought into what could best be done to exploit the format. For example, would the tweeter sound better on top of the vertical stack or in between the 2-10"s? I say on top, yet most of them are built with the tweeter in the middle. Small thing I know, but it's one example.

that is why the Genz Benz neoX 212T is my cab of choice.

 

[greenboy]

Actually, there are very few 'non vertical' designs on the market. Virtually all 2x12 designs are vertical (offset, but vertically configured)

That would be "diagonal" and it's not the same.

I was rather disappointed when Epifiani changed from a horizontal OR vertical 212 box design years ago, to ones that used the diagonal approach. I understand that it was more about matching box sizes and market expectations ; }