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War on Drugs

I have always disliked the use of "war" language for law enforcement issues, or indeed for anything other than... well, actual war. It implies a beginning, middle, and end, resulting in victory or defeat. That works when you're talking about two countries going to war, but how do you win a war on poverty? Unless everyone winds up with the exact same amount of money, the people with less just get defined as "poor" no matter what. Suppose we described the illegality of murder as a "war on murder." How would one ever realistically "win" such a war?

Whether something ought to be legal or illegal has nothing to do with whether prohibiting it is a "war" that can be "won." That's completely irrelevant and should be taken off the table. People won't stop committing crimes just because they are illegal. The reason something is illegal is not that you expect to stop its happening ever, but because society has a compelling interest in punishing it; in other words, that the prohibited action commits an injustice against society that deserves to be penalized.

The reasons for prohibiting some things (murder, theft) are obvious; they do harm to others. In other cases, the law prohibits actions that do not automatically harm others but that increase the risk of harm and are thus socially irresponsible - drunk driving, or simple speeding, for instance. Most tenuous are "victimless" crimes where the prohibited action poses a risk to no one other than the person themselves - not wearing a motorcycle helmet, for instance. And of course, there's a graded scale of penalties to fit the harm or degree of threat that each kind of crime inflicts.

The main comparators for legalization of drugs would be alcohol and tobacco. But it doesn't quite fit either mold, really. In the case of alcohol, prohibition was up against a number of problems. One was that alcohol usage was social tradition going back time out of mind; there was no real consensus that there was anything really wrong with it, and the law had to make so many loopholes as to become a dead letter from the beginning. Another was that alcohol could be used moderately and responsibly without the ill effects of drunkenness or alcoholism. That seems like one difference to me; one can drink alcoholic drinks without getting drunk, but I never heard of someone using drugs without getting high (though there are more moderate highs and more extreme ones). I'm not sure there's a marijuana equivalent to a glass of wine with dinner.

In the case of tobacco, we've never prohibited it altogether. Instead, it's been subjected to increasingly stringent regulation over the last few decades, and of course the kind of education and advertising campaigns that the gentleman in the video points to as a model for discouraging tobacco use. With all of that, as of 2010 about 19% of the US population smokes (per the CDC).

Now, with its current illegal status, apparently about 8.3% of the US population currently uses illegal drugs, the lion's share of it marijuana. There is already plenty of education and advertising aimed at discouraging marijuana use; it's hard to expect that in a decriminalized environment, those means would reduce use from current levels. Presumably use would rise. The question is how much. I expect it would land somewhere between the current level and the tobacco level - somewhere in the 10-15% range. It will be interesting to watch what happens in states like Colorado, though as long as it's legal in some states and not others you'll have the "mecca" phenomenon, where people visit or migrate to legalized states from prohibition ones.

On the whole, I'm still undecided. I can see the logic of treating marijuana (but not harder drugs) like tobacco. I think there absolutely will be a rise in usage, and I'm doubtful that there would be a significant decline in things like gang crime as a result. Most of that is turf wars over dealing harder drugs like cocaine and heroin, not pot, as near as I can tell. I'm worried about what risk of harm there will be from that increased usage - will we see more traffic accidents from people driving while high, will there be an economic impact on people's work? Will there be any actual reduction in law enforcement costs over legalizing pot alone? Will those costs simply get transferred into the costs of monitoring regulation compliance?
 
Logically his solution would work. Users will still be users it wasn't the sellers who forced the users to use it was a poor decision on the persons part to buy garbage from them in the first place. If this does take place do you think everyone is going to become a drug addict? If that was the case then everyone would be an Alcoholic! It is a tough issue and plenty of thought would have to go into the process. And crime would still take place on our f'ed up little planet but the stats show great percentage of crime is drug related this is from 2002-2004 can you imagine where it is now!

2002 in U.S. about a quarter of convicted property and drug offenders in local jails had committed their crimes to get money for drugs, compared to 5% of violent and public order offenders. Among State prisoners in 2004 the pattern was similar, with property (30%) and drug offenders (26%) more likely to commit their crimes for drug money than violent (10%) and public-order offenders (7%). In Federal prisons property offenders (11%) were less than half as likely as drug offenders (25%) to report drug money as a motive in their offenses.

In 2004, 17% of U.S. State prisoners and 18% of Federal inmates said they committed their current offense to obtain money for drugs. These percentages represent a slight increase for Federal prisoners (16% in 1997) and a slight decrease for State prisoners (19% in 1997).
these are all percentage of prisoners we are talking about the total population of prisoners in prison want to take a guess what that number might be on any given day!
yeah you need a # Last year, in the United States the estimates found all said there were about 2.3 million people in U.S. prisons. That’s about 730 people in prison for every 100,000 Americans. The estimate remained about the same this year.

drug related crimes include illegal firearms which they need them to protect their empire like a business it is about supply and demand to make a profit take away their way of making a profit and the business fails. simple logic without a simple answer I am for a answer that works whatever it maybe.
 
Logically his solution would work. Users will still be users it wasn't the sellers who forced the users to use it was a poor decision on the persons part to buy garbage from them in the first place. If this does take place do you think everyone is going to become a drug addict? If that was the case then everyone would be an Alcoholic! It is a tough issue and plenty of thought would have to go into the process. And crime would still take place on our f'ed up little planet but the stats show great percentage of crime is drug related this is from 2002-2004 can you imagine where it is now!

2002 in U.S. about a quarter of convicted property and drug offenders in local jails had committed their crimes to get money for drugs, compared to 5% of violent and public order offenders. Among State prisoners in 2004 the pattern was similar, with property (30%) and drug offenders (26%) more likely to commit their crimes for drug money than violent (10%) and public-order offenders (7%). In Federal prisons property offenders (11%) were less than half as likely as drug offenders (25%) to report drug money as a motive in their offenses.

In 2004, 17% of U.S. State prisoners and 18% of Federal inmates said they committed their current offense to obtain money for drugs. These percentages represent a slight increase for Federal prisoners (16% in 1997) and a slight decrease for State prisoners (19% in 1997).
these are all percentage of prisoners we are talking about the total population of prisoners in prison want to take a guess what that number might be on any given day!
yeah you need a # Last year, in the United States the estimates found all said there were about 2.3 million people in U.S. prisons. That’s about 730 people in prison for every 100,000 Americans. The estimate remained about the same this year.

drug related crimes include illegal firearms which they need them to protect their empire like a business it is about supply and demand to make a profit take away their way of making a profit and the business fails. simple logic without a simple answer I am for a answer that works whatever it maybe.

But.... there's a pretty clear distinction between pot and harder drugs like cocaine or heroin. I'm pretty sure no one is seriously saying the hard drugs should be legalized, or if they are, that's a different argument than for legalizing pot. So the question is, how many of those offenders were committing crimes for pot money, as opposed to for heroin money or crack money? How many gangs are getting guns and shooting each other over pot-dealing turf as opposed to coke-dealing turf? Because if your figures relate to hard drugs rather than pot, they are irrelevant to the discussion.

Also, on the rates of consumption, there is a factor which everyone knows if they've followed the tobacco industry debates: marketing matters. Marketing departments absolutely, positively do NOT merely try to meet pre-existing demand for their product; they do everything they can to CREATE demand for their product. It's utterly naive to imagine that producers of legal pot would not try to market as aggressively as regulations allow them to do, much as tobacco and alcohol companies do.
 
A lot of labs are small and confined spaces like garages and sheds, my friend.

Until the place is inspected, it's only a guess of what is in there and how much. The small and confined space also makes the fumes much more concentrated and potentially more dangerous.

First off, let's get some terminology right. It was not a "lab" it was 2 soda bottles full of whatever chemicals are used for "cold" cooking of meth, so lets quit using terminology which implies a scaled down version of the "lab" on Breaking Bad.

This method of producing meth yields such small quantities of (vastly) inferior product, it is exclusively the domain of hardcore addicts so it's not like mass quantities of poison were coming out of this operation and there is very low to no risk associated with this type of "cook" for no other reason than the physically small size. A "lab" exactly like it was discovered a few days earlier in a car and the cop who did the traffic stop and discovered it on the passenger floorboard simply removed the two bottles and put them in a bucket to take them in to the station. No mass turnout of personnel, no thousands of man hours and resources wasted, just a simple traffic stop, discovery of something more and the proper response to the level of threat discovered.

In the case at the motel, because LE didn't evacuate the entire area before attempting to remove the 2 soda bottles they either didn't see any real threat or were too inept to see it if there was in fact a real threat to anyone in the area.

Any way you cut this, it was either drama to spook the sheep or it was inept management on the part of whoever was running the operation. Since this particular city (and county) have never been short on drama when it comes to the "war on drugs", I'm leaning toward this being a (very) expensive little bit of stagecraft to justify the tons of money being dumped into the city/county by the state and fed to support said "war".

Since you insist on having the last word on this in an attempt to justify such a gross overreaction, you must be making bank off the "war on drugs" or you are one of those who believe the hype used to justify such a huge drain of cash which actually produces the opposite effect as intended.

Since this "war" stated, the only constant has been an increase in supply of illegal drugs while prices fall so low even an elementary school kid can afford the most dangerous drugs available. There was a time when one need be fairly well heeled to afford cocaine or heroin, but not anymore. All we are getting for our money is ever increasing dangerous drug use, lower prices for the truly dangerous illegal drugs, more people in prison, and a grossly bloated LE community.
 
Another was that alcohol could be used moderately and responsibly without the ill effects of drunkenness or alcoholism. That seems like one difference to me; one can drink alcoholic drinks without getting drunk, but I never heard of someone using drugs without getting high (though there are more moderate highs and more extreme ones). I'm not sure there's a marijuana equivalent to a glass of wine with dinner.

A single joint with dinner (before or after, as you like it) is very nice and not too overpowering. A glass of wine would leave me wasted, and not in any good way. YMMV.

There is already plenty of education and advertising aimed at discouraging marijuana use; it's hard to expect that in a decriminalized environment, those means would reduce use from current levels. Presumably use would rise. The question is how much. I expect it would land somewhere between the current level and the tobacco level - somewhere in the 10-15% range. It will be interesting to watch what happens in states like Colorado, though as long as it's legal in some states and not others you'll have the "mecca" phenomenon, where people visit or migrate to legalized states from prohibition ones.

On the whole, I'm still undecided. I can see the logic of treating marijuana (but not harder drugs) like tobacco. I think there absolutely will be a rise in usage, and I'm doubtful that there would be a significant decline in things like gang crime as a result. Most of that is turf wars over dealing harder drugs like cocaine and heroin, not pot, as near as I can tell. I'm worried about what risk of harm there will be from that increased usage - will we see more traffic accidents from people driving while high, will there be an economic impact on people's work? Will there be any actual reduction in law enforcement costs over legalizing pot alone? Will those costs simply get transferred into the costs of monitoring regulation compliance?

Teen use has gone down in fully legal states, and here's a study comparing teens' use following the enactment of medical cannabis laws:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23763418

I can't really say about the driving high issue, though here in WA the sky certainly hasn't fallen in since it became legal; I can still find scores of folks every week with DUIs, but they always seem to be alcohol-related. :hmm:

Suicides have declined measurably, though.

http://ideas.repec.org/p/iza/izadps/dp6280.html
 
But.... there's a pretty clear distinction between pot and harder drugs like cocaine or heroin. I'm pretty sure no one is seriously saying the hard drugs should be legalized, or if they are, that's a different argument than for legalizing pot. So the question is, how many of those offenders were committing crimes for pot money, as opposed to for heroin money or crack money? How many gangs are getting guns and shooting each other over pot-dealing turf as opposed to coke-dealing turf? Because if your figures relate to hard drugs rather than pot, they are irrelevant to the discussion.

I would argue that they are relevant to the discussion because if the police weren't wasting so much time and resources locking people up for marijuana related offenses they would have much more time and resources to deal with problems related to harder drugs. I don't have time to dig up the numbers, but law enforcement spends an enormous amount of time and money on marijuana prohibition.
 
I'm not sure there's a marijuana equivalent to a glass of wine with dinner.

When I used to partake that amount was 1/3 of a cookie the size of a nilla waffer or about 2-3 puffs on a small pipe... an1/8 oz. of weed would last about 4-6 weeks and cost about $50. I was far more aware of my capacities than being mildly buzzed from alcohol.

From that amount I could focus on music, school, or other projects for about 2-3 hours (or workout for a couple hours without being distracted or bored) and then I could fall asleep without an hour of mind-racing in bed.... I may have been the minority of people that would use in very moderate amounts and also become very focused and productive... but that is what marijuana can do in responsible amounts, used by responsible people, responsibly.

I understand the stereotype of loser kids just wanting to get as high as possible, and frat boys wanna drink to oblivion, and sorority girls sleep around, and old guys just want the damn kids off their lawn... I think it is very relevant to point out that not everyone likes being drunk and not everyone likes sucking down a bowl by themselves and floating above consciousness either. The only reason I think it isn't used moderately more often is because of the social stigma attached to it puts it in the demographic of excessive use.
 
First off, let's get some terminology right. It was not a "lab" it was 2 soda bottles full of whatever chemicals are used for "cold" cooking of meth, so lets quit using terminology which implies a scaled down version of the "lab" on Breaking Bad.

This method of producing meth yields such small quantities of (vastly) inferior product, it is exclusively the domain of hardcore addicts so it's not like mass quantities of poison were coming out of this operation and there is very low to no risk associated with this type of "cook" for no other reason than the physically small size. A "lab" exactly like it was discovered a few days earlier in a car and the cop who did the traffic stop and discovered it on the passenger floorboard simply removed the two bottles and put them in a bucket to take them in to the station. No mass turnout of personnel, no thousands of man hours and resources wasted, just a simple traffic stop, discovery of something more and the proper response to the level of threat discovered.

In the case at the motel, because LE didn't evacuate the entire area before attempting to remove the 2 soda bottles they either didn't see any real threat or were too inept to see it if there was in fact a real threat to anyone in the area.

Any way you cut this, it was either drama to spook the sheep or it was inept management on the part of whoever was running the operation. Since this particular city (and county) have never been short on drama when it comes to the "war on drugs", I'm leaning toward this being a (very) expensive little bit of stagecraft to justify the tons of money being dumped into the city/county by the state and fed to support said "war".

Since you insist on having the last word on this in an attempt to justify such a gross overreaction, you must be making bank off the "war on drugs" or you are one of those who believe the hype used to justify such a huge drain of cash which actually produces the opposite effect as intended.

Since this "war" stated, the only constant has been an increase in supply of illegal drugs while prices fall so low even an elementary school kid can afford the most dangerous drugs available. There was a time when one need be fairly well heeled to afford cocaine or heroin, but not anymore. All we are getting for our money is ever increasing dangerous drug use, lower prices for the truly dangerous illegal drugs, more people in prison, and a grossly bloated LE community.

First off, I have a background in chemistry and have never followed Breaking Bad. Despite Sudafed laws being considered failures, they were a good enough deterrent in my state. Prior to that, we had a bit of a meth lab problem.

Cold cooking, the one pot method, etc. They still use hazardous chemicals. HazMat and OSHA have a lot of lengthy and tedious processes. They're there for good reason. I get that you don't like LE and somehow this is all their fault. We should just throw that stuff down the sink and call it good, right?

Just like bomb threats, policies have to be followed to the letter. This is for our safety and theirs. They don't know how much of a threat it is or it isn't until they evacuate, clear the area, then collect and properly dispose of all the chemicals.

I don't like the government waste, either. Bill the crank addicts and make them work it off.
 
From that amount I could focus on music, school, or other projects for about 2-3 hours (or workout for a couple hours without being distracted or bored) and then I could fall asleep without an hour of mind-racing in bed.... I may have been the minority of people that would use in very moderate amounts and also become very focused and productive... but that is what marijuana can do in responsible amounts, used by responsible people, responsibly.

Most definitely. I smoke daily, but Im not sitting around the couch eating Cheetos and watchign TV. I like to take a few puffs and do something, which is why I prefer (the supposed effects of) sativa strains over indicas. To be honest, I dont feel much of a difference bewteen the two. I'll get home, take toke, cook some dinner. After eating I'll take another toke and then work on some music. Or I'l take a toke and start cleaning. Or I take a toke and read, or do yardwork, or any other number of things.

I stay much more clear-headed toking than if I were to have a beer while doing any of those activities.

Alcohol has effects at small concentrations as well. Saying they aren't similar is dubious.

Im fairly certain thats what I was saying.
A glass of wine being a drink with a small concentration of alcohol, in comparison to some dirty dry marijuana with a small concentration of cannabinoids.
Perhaps I mistook the intent of your post. Forgive me, I havent sparked up yet today. :p
 
When I used to partake that amount was 1/3 of a cookie the size of a nilla waffer or about 2-3 puffs on a small pipe... an1/8 oz. of weed would last about 4-6 weeks and cost about $50. I was far more aware of my capacities than being mildly buzzed from alcohol.

From that amount I could focus on music, school, or other projects for about 2-3 hours (or workout for a couple hours without being distracted or bored) and then I could fall asleep without an hour of mind-racing in bed.... I may have been the minority of people that would use in very moderate amounts and also become very focused and productive... but that is what marijuana can do in responsible amounts, used by responsible people, responsibly.

I understand the stereotype of loser kids just wanting to get as high as possible, and frat boys wanna drink to oblivion, and sorority girls sleep around, and old guys just want the damn kids off their lawn... I think it is very relevant to point out that not everyone likes being drunk and not everyone likes sucking down a bowl by themselves and floating above consciousness either. The only reason I think it isn't used moderately more often is because of the social stigma attached to it puts it in the demographic of excessive use.

+100

People can and do use marijuana in moderation. It's about knowing your limits and taking personal responsibility to figure out what those are.
 
+100

People can and do use marijuana in moderation. It's about knowing your limits and taking personal responsibility to figure out what those are.

Indeed. In my younger days I hung out with a few potheads who would just smoke bowl after bowl.
I got tired of hanging with them. Mind numbingly high just watching TV, no thanks. There was no need to smoke that much weed. I wasnt going to get any higher.
 
Im fairly certain thats what I was saying.
A glass of wine being a drink with a small concentration of alcohol, in comparison to some dirty dry marijuana with a small concentration of cannabinoids.
Perhaps I mistook the intent of your post. Forgive me, I havent sparked up yet today. :p

Yeah, I was agreeing with you in the one minute I had left of lunch so I didn't have time to sort out the post you were responding to.