What if Leo didn't get it exactly right the first time around?

[watt]

bassslinger just,

I believe the word might be "kvetch" maybe?

keep wringing those hands...

on bass, watt

http://mikewatt.com/

For the past five years, I've been using vintage-inspired Fender Jazzes and Precisions exclusively. I believed in the adage that Leo got it right the first time around with the Jazz and the '57 Precision onwards.

Yesterday, I got a "modern" bass and couldn't believe how wrong Leo had been:

• Truss rod access requires having to remove the neck
• Tuners weight so much, resulting in serious neck dive
• Bridge requires strings go through it, which is mildly inconvenient when changing strings
• Threaded saddles causes smaller gauge strings to move move around
• Single coil hum (Jazz bass)
• 7.25-inch fingerboard radius, requiring more neck relief and so higher action
• Heel design makes it had to access last frets.

Also, when we say, "Leo got it right the first time around," we usually mean the '57 Precision, which isn't exactly the "first time around."

You could Leo created a bass that works in most if not all genres, but isn't that only because it was, for a while, the only bass available on the market, more or less? Would we say the same thing of the Warwick Thumb, for example, had it been the first bass on the market and played on all those classic records?

So, what exactly did Leo get right?

 

[CletusMarley]

I think Leo got enough right that countless builders and companies still make literal dead on copies of his original designs. You have to wonder what our electric instruments would look like today had Leo decided to be a banker or a plumber instead of going in the direction he went. I think Leo did alright.

 

[JimmyM]

I don't care if he got it right the first, second, or hundredth time. He got a lot of things right and established several landmarks for bass and guitar. But I get that sometimes we have a slow day on here.

 

[JimmyM]

bassslinger just,

I believe the word might be "kvetch" maybe?

keep wringing those hands...

on bass, watt

http://mikewatt.com/

Mike, you always know what to say!

 

[watt]

respect to you brother jimmy, truly.

on bass, watt

mike watt's hoot page

Mike, you always know what to say!

 

[andare]

I find the 7.25" radius (and 1.75" nut) more comfortable on bass. The neck profile also matters quite a bit. This is a matter of personal preference, not a bad design decision.

The truss rod adjustment at the heel is a serious pain. All my guitars that have it require me to remove the neck - no notch in the pickguard, removing the pickguard takes much longer than removing the neck and, even then, the nut doesn't stick out from the body enough for a screwdriver to fit. I guess the neck pockets are too deep.

Leo didn't get everything right but he got a lot right enough that we haven't bothered to improve upon his choices, even taking into account nostalgia for the goold ole vintage days and the unwillingness to question and relearn things (the QWERTY effect).

The P bass sounds so damn good!

Now the Jazz bass I have several issues with but that's personal preference again. So many people like it.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

He didn't get it exactly right, but he got the thing called an electric bass going in the right direction with a design that holds up 60-70 years later.

 

[J-Bass RMR]

couldn't believe how wrong Leo had been

People seem to lose - or have no comprehension of - the historical context in which the electric bass was created over 70 years ago.
For 1951 ('57, and '60) how could anyone have possibly done any better the 1st time around?

They have stood the test of time.

I could play any gig today on a '51 P-Bass.

Other than some design improvements & tweaks, and some borrowed technology (active electronics), there has been very little evolution in the electric bass over the past 70 years.

Out of the dozens of Fender basses I have owned over the years, only 1 - a reissue '51 - has required loosening the neck to access the truss rod.

And yes, I'm a a fan of modern basses and builders too.

 

[eddododo]

You might find the answer by switching to a G&L

I've never once gelled with any G&L basses, and I really REALLY wanted to. I think they're interesting, and I think the active circuit is a great study, but when push comes to shove and it's time to play, none of them have felt nor sounded in a way that I found particularly inspiring

 

[bigdaddybass12]

So, what exactly did Leo get right?

Easy, Music Man. Including Music Man copies.

 

[GlennRH]

Leo was done in '51!

I bought my first G&L bass in 1994 from the manager of an instrument shop, Dave, whose true calling involved playing bass on local stages. Over his years as manager of that store, Dave attended numerous NAMM shows. At NAMM shows prior to Mr Fender's 1991 passing, Dave met and spoke with Leo Fender and/or George Fullerton and/or Dale Hyatt several times.

Most years, Mr Fender made a point of attending the same shows that Dave attended. Most years, Mr Fender made a point of remaining accessible for conversation with people like Dave, reportedly remembering numerous visitors to the G&L booth from prior years' shows.

Between what Dave told me about his multiple conversations with Mr Fender and my own reading of George Fullerton's book, Guitar Legends: The Evolution of the Guitar from Fender to G&L, I've learned these points:

• Mr Fender solicited feedback about instrument design from pro and semi-pro musicians constantly.
• Not a musician himself (radio repairman turned amp-maker turned pickup designer and electronics tinkerer) Mr Fender incorporated musicians' feedback into all decisions about instrument design.
• Mr Fender employed engineers (e.g. Mr Fullerton) in a never-ending process of figuring out what musicians would like, pay for, and yield a profit.
• While he paid careful attention to input from musicians and engineers, Mr Fender himself always remained The Decision Maker.
• Mr Fender so strongly believed in constant improvement and in lawsuit avoidance that he insisted on such decisions as made the Jazz bass so different from the Precision, the Stingray so different from both of those, and all G&L instruments so different from those, made with parts whose designs he patented (e.g. bi-cut necks and MFD pickups).

The '51 Precision represented the culmination of much care in its design and making in 1951. Likewise, G&Ls made until Mr Fender's passing in March, 1991 also manifested the same never-ending care plus his insistence on continuous improvement.

It wasn't until after after Leo's passing that you could buy a G&L LB-100 bass (initially the Legacy Bass) or a G&L JB bass, or any G&L bass made with alnico pickups. No coincidence.

 

[FRoss6788]

Seems Leo did just fine....

Every company he started is doing just fine, and his products are relatively unchanged. Minor tweaks at best.

 

[groooooove]

Incredibly Moist and Easy Carrot Cake

 

[MrAB4003]

I've never once gelled with any G&L basses, and I really REALLY wanted to. I think they're interesting, and I think the active circuit is a great study, but when push comes to shove and it's time to play, none of them have felt nor sounded in a way that I found particularly inspiring

I understand where you're coming from, but not all G&Ls are active basses. They have the LB-100 (their Precision style bass), the JB (their Jazz style bass), and the L-1000 AKA the "Wunkay" (the all passive bass that Leo invented in 1980). The L-1000 is the most interesting of the bunch if you ask me.

 

[coyote1]

There aren't that many ppl out there who actually say that "Leo got it right the first time." That's a talkbass thing.

Me personally, I've never gelled with most fender bases. Their guitars are a different story but the basses don't work for me, so I'd say that Leo didn't get it right at all… but I'd never say that amongst the crowd here cuz I'd likely be excommunicated.

I say it. And I don't even own one. Yeah there might be some ergonomic issues such as neck dive… but while not as 'playable' as some that came a decade later, it's very playable. But what he REALLY got right is the sound. Up and down the neck, it sounds great. It's simultaneously solid, rumbling, clear, gritty, smooth, brash, subtle. It thumps, it underpins, it slaps, it leads, it supports. It rocks hard, funks the dance floor, can play jazz.

 

[2saddleslab]

I bought my first G&L bass in 1994 from the manager of an instrument shop, Dave, whose true calling involved playing bass on local stages. Over his years as manager of that store, Dave attended numerous NAMM shows. At NAMM shows prior to Mr Fender's 1991 passing, Dave met and spoke with Leo Fender and/or George Fullerton and/or Dale Hyatt several times.

Most years, Mr Fender made a point of attending the same shows that Dave attended. Most years, Mr Fender made a point of remaining accessible for conversation with people like Dave, reportedly remembering numerous visitors to the G&L booth from prior years' shows.

Between what Dave told me about his multiple conversations with Mr Fender and my own reading of George Fullerton's book, Guitar Legends: The Evolution of the Guitar from Fender to G&L, I've learned these points:

• Mr Fender solicited feedback about instrument design from pro and semi-pro musicians constantly.
• Not a musician himself (radio repairman turned amp-maker turned pickup designer and electronics tinkerer) Mr Fender incorporated musicians' feedback into all decisions about instrument design.
• Mr Fender employed engineers (e.g. Mr Fullerton) in a never-ending process of figuring out what musicians would like, pay for, and yield a profit.
• While he paid careful attention to input from musicians and engineers, Mr Fender himself always remained The Decision Maker.
• Mr Fender so strongly believed in constant improvement and in lawsuit avoidance that he insisted on such decisions as made the Jazz bass so different from the Precision, the Stingray so different from both of those, and all G&L instruments so different from those, made with parts whose designs he patented (e.g. bi-cut necks and MFD pickups).

The '51 Precision represented the culmination of much care in its design and making in 1951. Likewise, G&Ls made until Mr Fender's passing in March, 1991 also manifested the same never-ending care plus his insistence on continuous improvement.

It wasn't until after after Leo's passing that you could buy a G&L LB-100 bass (initially the Legacy Bass) or a G&L JB bass, or any G&L bass made with alnico pickups. No coincidence.

Had the honor to speak with George Fullerton and he could not have been more gracious with his time.

 

[GretschWretch]

Leo got it right in concept; in execution, perhaps not so much. I'm thinking dead spots and overall weight. But even if these things had entered Leo's mind I doubt he would have cared. He was trying to put on the market a servicible instrument at the lowest price point he could.

 

[Chickenwheels]

In the spirit of a good chuckle…

• Truss rod access requires having to remove the neck

You're supposed to use a flathead screwdriver and the neck can stay on.

• Tuners weight so much, resulting in serious neck dive

Get a 9-10lb bass and you're sorted for balance.

• Bridge requires strings go through it, which is mildly inconvenient when changing strings

Change strings?? Only if they break or pit out! Heck, when Carol Kaye broke a string she just bought a new Precision.

• Threaded saddles causes smaller gauge strings to move move around

Hmm. Let's take a look at your playing technique.

• Single coil hum (Jazz bass)

True enough. The whole Jazz Bass wiring setup is pretty wonky. This isn't Leo's bass, it's the marketing department bass.

• 7.25-inch fingerboard radius, requiring more neck relief and so higher action

We're playing bass here, not stacking 3rds at lightening speed.

• Heel design makes it had to access last frets.

Note from the rest of the band: stay out of our lane!

 

[ToneMonkey]

Lightweight vintage style bridge with threaded steel saddles has not been improved upon. Sturdier bridges with added mass (e.g., Badass, G&L) suck sonically to my ears. So IMHO he did get that right. Another thing he got right just by accident is the placement of the split P pickup. It's sublime. Something about it just sits right in a mix. But Leo likely placed it there because it looked right. YMMV

 

[Killing Floor]

What did Leo get right?

Leo Fender made it possible for you to play an electric bass guitar today.

No, he didn't invent it. He made it within your reach. And that's why every bass or electric guitar you can buy today is 99% a copy of something he made possible.