What's On Your Workbench?

[Lo-E]

You might try "not a brush" for the brush part. Makeup sponges have been suggested as a really good fine-pore "foam brush" for wipe-on by @Gilmourisgod

Controlling runs suggests "applying too much in one go" as a part of the problem. Many thin coats.

Foam brushes, at least the hardware store kind, proved to be terrible for this particular product.

Many thin coats was (and still is) the goal. What I’ve found frustrating about this stuff is that it’s so thick it’s hard to apply thin coats and it’s so fast-drying it starts to flash over too soon to have any control over it flowing into itself.

A synthetic brush helped immediately and a better quality synthetic brush helped even more but I definitely think diluting it - just a little - is really going to help. I just need to try it a little on a test piece.

The areas that did come out well (despite my worst efforts) look great so I still believe this is the product I want to use for this but I need to get better at applying it and I need to extend the working time to make it more user-friendly.

I don’t object to the idea of wiping it on, either, but I suspect I would need to dilute it even more for that to go smoothly. It’s really pretty gloppy stuff.

Stand back, citizens, I’m learning!

 

[Lo-E]

Hello Ethan;

Maybe try wiping it on, with a clean cloth? But don't over-rub it. And don't slop it on too thick. Multiple thin wiped-on coats. After a couple of thin coats, let it cure for a few days and lightly level sand it, dry, with 600. Then a few more coats.

If my tests with a better brush don’t fly, that will be my next course of action. Practice makes perfect.

In support of the old adage “If it’s worth doing right, it’s worth doing twice”, sanding back the botched finish made it clear to me how much better the original sanding could have been so whatever method I end up using will be going on to a much better prepped surface. That means I won’t be relying on the finish as much to fill imperfections which, in turn, means I’ll be able to use fewer coats. All good things!

I need to set up a test piece for myself and compare brushed-on coats with wiped-on coats and uncut vs. diluted. Once I crack that nut, the rest should go pretty smoothly.

 

[rudy4444]

If my tests with a better brush don’t fly, that will be my next course of action. Practice makes perfect.

In support of the old adage “If it’s worth doing right, it’s worth doing twice”, sanding back the botched finish made it clear to me how much better the original sanding could have been so whatever method I end up using will be going on to a much better prepped surface. That means I won’t be relying on the finish as much to fill imperfections which, in turn, means I’ll be able to use fewer coats. All good things!

I need to set up a test piece for myself and compare brushed-on coats with wiped-on coats and uncut vs. diluted. Once I crack that nut, the rest should go pretty smoothly.

I'll suggest making up a new "fad" for each new wipe on coat. I have used Min-wax wipe on poly quite a bit and like this method of application. The fad is similar to what is used to do a French polished finish, but made from soft lint free cotton material and bound with a rubber band. A new one can be made up for each application and it's cheap as dirt.
Details can be found in step #110 in THIS topic post.

Of particular importance, the fad makes it relatively easy to apply a uniform layer of poly while minimizing any chance of runs.

 

[Lo-E]

I made a simple test to compare cut, uncut, brushed and wiped coats:

I would have preferred to do this with ash but I don’t have scrap ash so I just used a piece of plywood. The comparisons are still valuable. I’ll do a second and, perhaps, third coat as well so the wood type will be less of an influence on behavior.

Uncut with brush - still a little thick and hard to control flow. The thinnest coat I could lay down was still not so thin. A softer, smaller brush would probably have worked better here but I don’t have one.

Uncut with rag - using a tightly folded, clean, flannel rag (not quite a fad but functionally similar) I had much better control over application. Product still seems to want to flash off a little too soon but much more workable than with a brush.

Cut to 80% with brush - coat went on much, much smoother and I didn’t feel like I was fighting the product. I don’t know how it would behave on curved surfaces but on the flat front and back this could be a winner. Flow was really smooth and coat was thin and even.

Cut 80% with rag - by far the most control and the coat goes on really, really thin. Perhaps a good option for later coats…. I’m not really certain. If I do all the coats this way it would take a whole lot of coats, but maybe that’s fine.

I’ll apply a second coat tomorrow evening and see what works and what doesn’t.

 

[rwkeating]

@Lo-E , what did you use to cut the poly?

 

[Lo-E]

@Lo-E , what did you use to cut the poly?

Water. Despite being “oil-modified”, it’s still water clean-up and sold as water based.

Looking at the dried samples, the diluted brush coat is the most even coverage, marginally better than the wiped-on undiluted. That’s on a nice, flat surface, though…. I’m not sure how it would fare on the curved sides. Could be drip city.

 

[rudy4444]

Water. Despite being “oil-modified”, it’s still water clean-up and sold as water based.

Looking at the dried samples, the diluted brush coat is the most even coverage, marginally better than the wiped-on undiluted. That’s on a nice, flat surface, though…. I’m not sure how it would fare on the curved sides. Could be drip city.

That's an interesting dilution percentage.
I usually see dilutions of 5% and up to 10% recommended, often with cautions about exceeding 10%.

 

[Lo-E]

That's an interesting dilution percentage.
I usually see dilutions of 5% and up to 10% recommended, often with cautions about exceeding 10%.

I probably went a little far but I didn't dislike the results.

I recently watched some Youtube videos from Paul's DIY and he's a big proponent of dilution - more than the manufacturers recommend - and his oil-based dilution rec worked really well for me on another project so I just trusted him regarding water-based. He suggested 75% for wipe-on and didn't make a recommendation for brushed so I just guessed at 80%. I think 90% might actually be a little better behaved for wipe-on but 80% sure worked well with the brush. ...at least on flat!

 

[Lo-E]

I just guessed at 80%. I think 90% might actually be a little better behaved for wipe-on but 80% sure worked well with the brush. ...at least on flat!

I applied a second coat but this time I replaced the 80% dilution with 90% to see how it would behave.

The second coat of full-strength was still problematic with the brush but went on well with the rag just as before. The 90% didn’t work nearly as well with the brush as the 80% did and wiping the 90% seemed about the same as the full-strength, but with poorer coverage.

I’ll do one more test coat with these ratios before I proceed. I have lots more sanding to do yet anyway.

In the end, I may end up wiping on the full-strength product. @Bruce Johnson , @T_Bone_TL and @rudy4444 should all feel free to say “I told you so” (because they did) but it was worth doing the test to learn more about the product. …and if I ever need to do a tabletop, 80% brushed on beautifully!

 

[JC BASS 91]

Right now...nothing.

I am honestly unsure how I feel about that.

 

[LFlab]

Currently this:

5-string medium scale Urge-esque build.
But this will need to come back on the bench to fit the strap pins:

A hybrid guitar/bass (3 bass strings, 3 guitar strings, separate outputs).

 

[rudy4444]

I applied a second coat but this time I replaced the 80% dilution with 90% to see how it would behave.

The second coat of full-strength was still problematic with the brush but went on well with the rag just as before. The 90% didn’t work nearly as well with the brush as the 80% did and wiping the 90% seemed about the same as the full-strength, but with poorer coverage.

I’ll do one more test coat with these ratios before I proceed. I have lots more sanding to do yet anyway.

In the end, I may end up wiping on the full-strength product. @Bruce Johnson , @T_Bone_TL and @rudy4444 should all feel free to say “I told you so” (because they did) but it was worth doing the test to learn more about the product. …and if I ever need to do a tabletop, 80% brushed on beautifully!

Good to hear your continuing experiments are yielding good results.

If you haven't tried application with a "fad" you may be surprised by the results. I found that the absorbent "ball" inside of the cloth surface really helps with application because the fad is supplied with a constantly replenished supply of finish by the internal pad. This helps with applying the finish consistently while not permitting excessive amounts that create runs.
I sometimes throw the fad inside a sandwich bag for re-use, but usually just make a new one for additional coats since they are so quick and easy to make.

 

[Lo-E]

Good to hear your continuing experiments are yielding good results.

If you haven't tried application with a "fad" you may be surprised by the results. I found that the absorbent "ball" inside of the cloth surface really helps with application because the fad is supplied with a constantly replenished supply of finish by the internal pad. This helps with applying the finish consistently while not permitting excessive amounts that create runs.
I sometimes throw the fad inside a sandwich bag for re-use, but usually just make a new one for additional coats since they are so quick and easy to make.

Do you roll the inner pad, fold it or just ball it up? My plan is to try a fad for the third test coat and, perhaps, practice with one some more to get the hang of using one.

I’m currently wiping on with folded flannel - about six layers - and that seems to dispense pretty evenly but I suspect that a fad would be more consistent.

I have to say that oil-based poly is a lot more forgiving than this stuff but I really like the look of this once it’s built up so…. I’ll just keep at it until it’s right.

 

[Matt Liebenau]

Currently this:
View attachment 7275916
5-string medium scale Urge-esque build.
But this will need to come back on the bench to fit the strap pins:
View attachment 7275915
A hybrid guitar/bass (3 bass strings, 3 guitar strings, separate outputs).

I like the color on the 5 string body.

 

[LFlab]

Thanks, that is Burgundy Mist (metallic pink ).

 

[Lo-E]

Thanks, that is Burgundy Mist (metallic pink ).

Burgundy Mist is also what happens if you tell me a joke while I’m drinking red wine.

 

[rudy4444]

Do you roll the inner pad, fold it or just ball it up? My plan is to try a fad for the third test coat and, perhaps, practice with one some more to get the hang of using one.

I’m currently wiping on with folded flannel - about six layers - and that seems to dispense pretty evenly but I suspect that a fad would be more consistent.

I have to say that oil-based poly is a lot more forgiving than this stuff but I really like the look of this once it’s built up so…. I’ll just keep at it until it’s right.

The center is made from a 12" by 12" section of cotton tee shirt fabric rolled into a ball. A 6" by 6" piece is fitted over it, gathered at the rear and held with a rubber band. Adjust the folds a bit to get a consistent round pad and you're done.
The tail works as a very nice way to hold the fad and keep finish material off your skin. I do usually put on a fresh pair of nitrile gloves, though.

 

[Lo-E]

I’ll do one more test coat with these ratios before I proceed. I have lots more sanding to do yet anyway.

The third test coat has been applied and I‘m now armed with all the information I need (if not the patience) to proceed.

The brushed on, full-strength product definitely gave me the best coverage but that was at the expense of not being able to get a thin enough coat without the application becoming very uneven.

At 90%, the brushed on coat was much smoother in application and went on thinner but still not thin enough that the rounded edges of a bass body wouldn’t run or drip.

All in all, using a brush would yield very pretty results in only a few coats if I were finishing a desk or a table but it’s just not ideal for a bass.

So…. at @rudy4444 ’s suggestion, I made up two “fads” and tried them for the wipe-on tests. I used flannel, although I suspect that the T-shirt material he suggested might work better, and I didn’t have a rubber band handy so I used a couple of little tie-wraps. I also made the pads a little smaller since I was covering such a small area.

As before, wiped on, this product is MUCH easier to control. The full strength went on just a little thicker but still very thin. The dilution went on very, very evenly but would definitely require many coats to build up a finish thick enough for level sanding and rubbing out.

The fads worked brilliantly. Really much better than just using a folded rag. The fad dispenses the finish as if I were using a giant magic marker. With practice I imagine one could have a great deal of control by adjusting how tightly the fad is wrapped. Thanks, Rudy, for a real game changer!

I still have many days of sanding ahead of me to think this over but I’m tempted to start with a few coats of the 90%, letting it soak right in and raise the grain a little, followed by sanding back. I can then follow with full-strength coats which will build faster, level sanding only every few coats and then maybe do the final coats with the diluted product again. I’m not sure if there’s any advantage to using the dilution in the end, but it’s easier to control and that may be enough of a reason.

 

[rudy4444]

So glad you found it useful, @Lo-E .

I try to present tips that I have personally found to be of use. Everyone's work methodology is different, but I figure if all the French polishers routinely use fads then it should be of use for us wipe on poly folks. They are especially useful considering they are made from discarded material, work well, and are free.

Worn cotton tee shirt material works best for me, anything with a "nap" is too squishy.

 

[Lo-E]

Worn cotton tee shirt material works best for me, anything with a "nap" is too squishy.

The flannel I used is so worn that it’s little more than soft cotton now; there’s not much nap to speak of, which is how it ended up in the rag pile. I’ll still try T-shirt, though. There are plenty of those in the rag pile, too! I imagine that the stretch would affect its behavior.

I’m looking forward to getting the surface fully prepared and starting to apply finish but the weather’s been oppressively hot and humid and isn’t really ideal for hand sanding.