What's so special about John Entwistle?

[5StringBlues]

He wrote a song about a friggin spider, that's what.

 

[Lowendtech]

He wrote a song about a friggin spider, that's what.

It was a true story too.

 

[Gwyn ap Nudd]

I think I see the problem here. You're essentially saying that Pete is the sole guitar player in the Who and therefore should be compared with other people who were also the sole guitar player. You mention Clapton, Hendrix, and Beck. I don't think you know that when the Who were the Detours, Townsend was the rhythm guitar player and Roger Daltrey was the lead guitar player. Daltrey decided he'd rather be the singer and left Townsend as the only guitarist. I also think you fail to understand that the Who inverted the standard musical roles so that the drums and bass were the lead instruments while guitar was provided rhythm with which ever of the other 2 were not playing lead at that moment.

If you're going to compare Townsend to other guitarists, you should choose guitarists such as John Lennon, David Crosby, Keith Richards, Paul Krassner, etc.

Townsend's ok, but way to full of himself. Interesting article in Rolling Stone with the new Who album having been released. I guess at 75, Townsend doesn't need to be nice anymore:

"I asked Townshend if he ever got nostalgic looking up at the pictures of his fallen bandmates. He snorted like an old horse.

"It's not going to make Who fans very happy, but thank God they're gone."

Because?

"Because they were shaging difficult to play with. They never, ever managed to create bands for themselves. I think my musical discipline, my musical efficiency as a rhythm player, held the band together."

Townshend took on his bass player first. "John's bass sound was like a Messiaen organ," he says, waving his angular limbs. "Every note, every harmonic in the sky. When he passed away and I did the first few shows without him, with Pino [Palladino] on bass, he was playing without all that stuff…. I said, 'Wow, I have a job.' "

He was not finished. Moon is an easier target; he once passed out during a 1970s show in San Francisco, forcing the band to pull a drummer out of the crowd. "With Keith, my job was keeping time, because he didn't do that," says Townshend. "So when he passed away, it was like, 'Oh, I don't have to keep time anymore.'" The Who by Fire, Stephen Rodrick, Rolling Stone Mag. Nov. 25, 2019

 

[Roger W]

Townsend's ok, but way to full of himself. Interesting article in Rolling Stone with the new Who album having been released. I guess at 75, Townsend doesn't need to be nice anymore:

"I asked Townshend if he ever got nostalgic looking up at the pictures of his fallen bandmates. He snorted like an old horse.

"It's not going to make Who fans very happy, but thank God they're gone."

Because?

"Because they were shagging difficult to play with. They never, ever managed to create bands for themselves. I think my musical discipline, my musical efficiency as a rhythm player, held the band together."

Townshend took on his bass player first. "John's bass sound was like a Messiaen organ," he says, waving his angular limbs. "Every note, every harmonic in the sky. When he passed away and I did the first few shows without him, with Pino [Palladino] on bass, he was playing without all that stuff…. I said, 'Wow, I have a job.' "

He was not finished. Moon is an easier target; he once passed out during a 1970s show in San Francisco, forcing the band to pull a drummer out of the crowd. "With Keith, my job was keeping time, because he didn't do that," says Townshend. "So when he passed away, it was like, 'Oh, I don't have to keep time anymore.'" The Who by Fire, Stephen Rodrick, Rolling Stone Mag. Nov. 25, 2019

I read that article. I put it in general tone with the oft-quoted Lennon statement about Ringo not being the best drummer in the Beatles. Cranky people sometimes say stupid things just to shock people and, in Townsend's case, get them to focus on now instead of 40 years ago.

 

[Gwyn ap Nudd]

I read that article. I put it in general tone with the oft-quoted Lennon statement about Ringo not being the best drummer in the Beatles. Cranky people sometimes say stupid things just to shock people and, in Townsend's case, get them to focus on now instead of 40 years ago.

It's hard to figure Townshend, especially after all the glowing comments about Entwhistle during his interview with Luongo. It's probably because Townsend realizes that Entwhistle would have made a better lead guitarist than Townshend would have made a bass player.

 

[Briton]

If you're going to compare Townsend to other guitarists, you should choose guitarists such as John Lennon, David Crosby, Keith Richards, Paul Krassner, etc.

I totally disagree with that as Pete was also a soloist to on guitar unlike the others that you mention.

 

[buldog5151bass]

The Who were pretty unique as a band. Their best soloists were in the rhythm section.

 

[Michedelic]

It's clearly a bass riffing . That isn't Pete's style of playing and he can't play that fast. You can hear his finger plucking the strings.

To say that Townshend can't play fast is dismissive. He did acknowledge that the flash bluesy style of lead was not his strongest suit as a guitarist, and that led him to persue his more chordal of playing, which actually set him apart from the crowd and made him more unique. But he was quite capable, whenever he was motivated, as you can hear at 1:43...

Sure, cliched licks, but still pretty slick(in the context of the times). Plus he's always been pretty handy and animated on acoustic, evidenced here between 4:20 and 5:20...

Another shining moment of Pete's acoustic work...

Of course, in an interview I read somewhere, he'd say he was just following in Bert Jansch's footsteps.

 

[Gwyn ap Nudd]

I totally disagree with that as Pete was also a soloist to on guitar unlike the others that you mention.

Yeah, Keith Richards' got no guitar chops at all.

 

[Roger W]

I totally disagree with that as Pete was also a soloist to on guitar unlike the others that you mention.

He was rhythm guitarist first and foremost. And while I can't point to a Krassner solo, I certainly recall solos by Lennon, Richards, and Crosby.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

Listen more.

Learn a handful of Who songs.

Post some recordings of you doing it.

Then come back.

This sounds like a true challenge ... wow!

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

Heavy-handed rock bass playing on distortion ... this may have been something quite new in the '60s but to say it's a masterpiece the distance to cover is still long .. had I to quote a quasi-contemporary and simple piece of rock bass playing, representing the historical period (talking about music and pop culture) I'd surely refer to Pink Floyd's Money for instance, not certainly to uh .. wot's the name .. ah, yes, The Real Man ..

 

[bobyoung53]

It's hard to figure Townshend, especially after all the glowing comments about Entwhistle during his interview with Luongo. It's probably because Townsend realizes that Entwhistle would have made a better lead guitarist than Townshend would have made a bass player.

Townsend was actually pretty good on bass, completely different from Entwistle though, he produced this and played bass on it:

 

[bobyoung53]

I totally disagree with that as Pete was also a soloist to on guitar unlike the others that you mention.

Lennon was a great soloist, played a lot of later Beatles solos on his own written stuff.

 

[thabassmon]

I think I see the problem here. You're essentially saying that Pete is the sole guitar player in the Who and therefore should be compared with other people who were also the sole guitar player. You mention Clapton, Hendrix, and Beck. I don't think you know that when the Who were the Detours, Townsend was the rhythm guitar player and Roger Daltrey was the lead guitar player. Daltrey decided he'd rather be the singer and left Townsend as the only guitarist. I also think you fail to understand that the Who inverted the standard musical roles so that the drums and bass were the lead instruments while guitar was provided rhythm with which ever of the other 2 were not playing lead at that moment.

If you're going to compare Townsend to other guitarists, you should choose guitarists such as John Lennon, David Crosby, Keith Richards, Paul Krassner, etc.

I am surprised that this thread is still going.

You are right I was comparing Townsend's role as a sole guitar to his contemporaries in a similar role, because in The Who that is a fair comparison, I was not comparing him to any players in multiple guitar groups nor guitarists of a different time or genre, I wasn't comparing him to players like George Harrison, Glenn Frey, Angus Young, Steve Vai, Eric Gales, Wes Montgomery, Brian May, Andres Segovia, Cat Stevens, Joni Mitchell, Oscar Moore nor John Fruciante because their situations are very different. I am aware of Daltrey's guitar history and yes I know of the roles that he and Townsend had in that group, but the topic is 'What's so special about John Entwistle" from the Who. The inversion of roles was close to my point, there are cause and effect elements at play. My point was that John Entwistle was the biggest contributor to their sound, holding down the bottom and filling the top, the question really is why.

To me, it's about playing appropriately in a given situation.
I was merely stating that the lack of quality lead playing from the guitar player at a time when lead guitar playing was prevalent, allowed the bass player to the setting to develop an approach that expanded functional bass lines to incorporate busier melodic passages filling the lead role typical at the time. If there wasn't any lead present from any of the members their music would of sounded empty to the other bands at the time, lead was expected. When they performed it is quite clear that Pete was not a gifted lead player even when he tried which can be heard by the many live clips on YouTube so John stepped up and delivered. I think that in turn created relief and allowed Townsend the opportunity to develop his rhythmic style further, songwriting and to explore and incorporate synths, as the role of lead was filled by Entwistle.

When they later performed with an orchestra, John had a less prominent approach because that was what was required, he let his musicianship guide him.

What I hear when I hear the Who is a Bass player driving a band on all fronts, holding down the time, some form of structure and trying to inject interest and energy into the music. Quite literally leading from the bottom, for that I think John Entwistle has cemented his place in music history and the development of the bass role in rock music. If Townsend had been had more virtuosity, I think Entwistle would of not developed such an active style because his natural musicianship would of prevented him from playing inappropriately.

So essentially what I'm saying is John Entwistle recognized the weaknesses and needs of his band, combined his musicianship and training to fulfill those needs and cover those weaknesses to develop a pioneering approach that expanded the potential of the instrument. Had the others been stronger musicians, I don't think that would of happened. There are a couple of other factors to consider such as the extra effort one makes when trying to successfully earn money from music, the undeniable jealousy that John had when Paul MacCartney's playing was receiving more attention than his and the internal conflicts of ego within the group.

 

[Briton]

Yeah, Keith Richards' got no guitar chops at all.

I think that you will find that it was generally either Mick Taylor or Ronnie Wood that did the solos for the Stones. Richards is basically a rhythm guitarist.

 

[Briton]

He was rhythm guitarist first and foremost. And while I can't point to a Krassner solo, I certainly recall solos by Lennon, Richards, and Crosby.

Well that just shows how much you know about The Who then doesn't it!

 

[Gwyn ap Nudd]

Well that just shows how much you know about The Who then doesn't it!

"Because they were shagging difficult to play with. They never, ever managed to create bands for themselves. I think my musical discipline, my musical efficiency as a rhythm player, held the band together."

That's a quote from Townshend himself. He calls himself a rhythm player. He talks about how he was responsible for keeping time, not for playing lead. So I guess that shows how much you know about The Who.

 

[Gwyn ap Nudd]

I think that you will find that it was generally either Mick Taylor or Ronnie Wood that did the solos for the Stones. Richards is basically a rhythm guitarist.

Sounds like you're equivocating. If Richards is primarily playing the rhythm pieces and occasionally solos, then the comparison with Townshend, who is quite proud about keeping the band in time, is valid.

Which is it? Richards can't solo, didn't solo, or let other people solo more often? Not disagreeing that Wood is a better guitarist, but that's not your original position.

 

[lfmn16]

I'm not the biggest rock fan out there, but I can see why people like John Paul Jones, John Deacon, Geezer Butler and the likes.

I can even see why people like Cliff Burton, although I think he's seriously overrated.

But I don't understand why John Entwistle is so highly regarded here on TalkBass and in the media. I listened to The Who's top songs on Spotify and watched a few videos on YouTube. Sure, he has that sort of tapping technique and a few fills on "My Generation," but is that it? I guess he did come before Jones et al., making him a pioneer?

I'm being serious here. I'm not trolling. What am I missing?

What exactly do you think words are going to tell you that your ears don't?