What's the problem with jeff berlin?

[Brad Johnson]

Just for the record, I am a software engineer for the DOD, however I have no degree. At first I was arrogant about this. Later I realized that people with an engineering degree have an advantage over me, based on what they learned in school they can think like an engineer. What I have is just a knowledge of the way the system works. I wish I had the advantage of the degree.

That explains your mindset but it hardly holds water. You actually believe that to think like an engineer you have to have a degree? "That" is definitely not thinking like an engineer.

Not the piece of paper but the thought process. When I say everything in life should be an academic pursuit, thats the way that I feel, and I will not back down. Sex is an instinct within humans, can we claim music is as well.

Yes. Why not?

Maybe in some people. I know both Jaco and John Patitucci learned to read music after they had been playing for years. Maybe. Does this apply to me and every musician I've ever played with? No. I have to work at it. I agree with Jeff Berlin if you are going to learn, learn the fundamentals of music. Instead of worrying about a pattern, you can play all over the place and I find that brings a much more creative approach. Like Dr. Cheese said I am not a professional musician, but I really look up to the pros and I feel like they should have a higher standard.

And just because "YOU" have to work at it, you choose to lay these kneejerk edicts on the rest of us. Think about that... or don't.


There is no reason to look up to a pro unless they're doing something that merits it. Education does not merit it because it's not some guarantee of what quality musician you'll be. Music is not some sort of albatross around our necks, for many it is fun. For many, dwelling on what you don't like vs. what you do is time consuming and pointless. And using a broadbrush to determine what you don't like is pretty close-minded.

Education shouldn't be limiting but when you look at it as some sort of arbiter of what's good and what's not, that's sad.

 

[Brad Johnson]

and I just verified in the chord charts and the guitar chords indicated at the tip of the chart indicate different fingerings for the modified chords. But there I go again with reading music and chord charts....

Kudos... you are a quality musician. Do you really consider reading a chord chart reading music? I don't. Do you not understand that many chord charts are wrong and at best guesses as to what was actually played? I do.

 

[Expendable Bass]

No... I've seen and heard this many times before.

Boy I'm glad I haven't. This is a first. Although I imagine I will be many times in the future.

And the melody itself on the actual sheet music will tell you more about how you should voice the chords themselves than the chord chart ever will. The chord chart just tells you the chords. Thought I'd just throw my two cents in on this discussion which is rampaging more and more off topic. And I don't think engineering has to do much with music. And it's an engineer's job to think outside the box, and assuming that someone with education simply is just better than you is definitely not outside the box.

 

[shank235]

No reading chord charts is not reading music. I just wanted to make sure what I was saying was right. As far as engineers thinking outside the box I'm sure that's right somewhere. In my line of engineering it is basically studying specifications and applying that to application. A mathematical "engineering" approach would be different in that situation. There is no thinking outside the box, the spec says this therefore the program will do this, if the program does not then this is what will happen. You know what maybe your right, maybe I've applied this same concept to music. However I still believe education is important in music. The reason why Jeff Berlin's comments are so unpopular with some is that they cannot or will not think that way and are offended. The same way I get offended when people tell me music is all about feel and education is not important. But this argument has been going on for years remember when grunge came about in the 90's and everybody made fun of the technical bands of the 70's and 80s. That's all this is. I will continue to listen to my Rush records, and ignore three chord pop punk or computer generated dance music. If that stuff floats your boat more power to you.

 

[KPAX]

yes, I know there's a thread going on about norah jones' records with jeff berlin on it, but I wanted to make this a separate thread so I can be heard

why does everyone have a problem with jeff berlin? to me he seems like an uptight, but really good jazz bassist

did he do anything wrong in the past? are his opinions on stuff too extreme or something?

why all the hate?

Jeff Berlin was a member of the Manson family, was found guilty of mass murder but later released on a technicality. While on death row he took up the bass and got quite good at it. Nonetheless a lot of people can't get over his homicidal past.

 

[KPAX]

yes, I know there's a thread going on about norah jones' records with jeff berlin on it, but I wanted to make this a separate thread so I can be heard

why does everyone have a problem with jeff berlin? to me he seems like an uptight, but really good jazz bassist

did he do anything wrong in the past? are his opinions on stuff too extreme or something?

why all the hate?

Jeff Berlin was a member of the Manson family, was found guilty of mass murder but later released on a technicality. While on death row he took up the bass and got quite good at it. Nonetheless a lot of people can't get over his homicidal past.

 

[Candybassed]

For me Jeff is truly one of the great bassists, but having read some of his comments on certain topics and about his own playing it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't get as many gigs as his talent deserves. We all know the catch phrase:

'it doesn't matter how good a player you are..if you don't get along with people...'

Another thing, does anyone really rate Mark Bass as one of the elite brands of Bass amp? Or Dean basses for an axe? Light, yes. But that's the only reason I'd get one over Eden, EBS, Aguilar etc

While a fan of his playing, I'm not a fan of his tone. That chorus sound has it's place, but on EVERY tune?

CandyBassed

Link Removed

 

[BassLand]

I have known Jeff Berlin for almost 30 years. I first met him at the wedding of a friend David Sancious (whom Jeff had played with on the east coast) David and I (along with other musicians from Asbury Park) grew up together and as such we all played at David's wedding. I saw this guy over in the corner looking at me in kind of a strange manner. I later deduced that he was figuring out what I was doing.

After the set I went over to meet him and he introduced himself and we talked a bit and I gave him a business card. The next time I saw Jeff he was arriving at Musicians Institute in September/October of 1980 to teach there. I spoke of our earlier meeting and he reached in his coat pocket and retrieved the card that I had given him almost 2 years earlier. We had a good laugh about that.

I interacted with Jeff a lot over the next 5-10 years because I worked at Tobias Guitars and Mike was Jeff's luthier/repairman. I worked on the old Roddy Piper (the original Jazz Bass that Jeff loved) a couple of times over that period. My overall take on Jeff Berlin is he is a good guy but, I know him over a long time. I was always a little suspicious of a bassplayer who boxed as a hobby (which was Jeff's hobby then. Don't know about now).

I remember the first class that Jeff taught at MI. There were a bunch of mostly European students whom he asked what bass players the students thought had the hot chops. He heard a few answers and then he said something that kinda shocked me. He called out the name s of some of the more famous black bassplayers and he introduced the students to the groove and feel aspect of great players. He stated that if they (the students) really wanted to know what was hip about music and bass playing they need to go to the black community. I was the only African American student in the room (and atypically for me, sitting at the back of the room) and the whole class en mass turned around and looked at me (I was not one of the names Jeff mentioned but I was the only black person in the room). Yea Jeff was cool and I don't know what he is like now but I see him at NAMM shows occasionally and we have a pleasant conversation so although I know Jeff to be opinionated he has never come off as arrogant to me.

I certainly would not consider him to be a male version of someone like Carol Kaye.

BL

 

[TimWilson]

He stated that if they (the students) really wanted to know what was hip about music and bass playing they need to go to the black community.

That's really interesting, because although I admire JB's playing (in context), I think it's about the 'whitest' bass-playing around!

 

[Sneckumhaw]

Successful does not equal talented.....Pete Wetnz, Sid Vicous?

Sid Vicious was successful? By what measure?

 

[Sneckumhaw]

There must be, becuase sex is definitely a thing in life and as we now know...

"like everything else in life music should be an academic pursuit".

Maybe it's a thing in your life...

not everyone is so fortunate

 

[BassLand]

No reading chord charts is not reading music. ..... The same way I get offended when people tell me music is all about feel and education is not important....

Hi Shank235,

Two points addressing the two points above.

1 - reading music NOTATION is doing what somebody else tells you to do which I believe is relatively easy. lets assume out of a group of 10 musicians all can read the music. The one that gets the gig is the one that makes the music FEEL good and I think you would have to agree out of the 10 theoretical musicians all will play it at least slightly differently.

Reading a chord chart and making magic out of it is the stuff legends are made of. Doing this in real time listening and interpreting, inventing and executing a fine performance on teh spot has a lot more mental processes going on than just reading the notation.

2-Music education tells you what somebody else did and how they did it. In modern music the innovations are made from the individual and written about by the educators. It definitely has it's place but...

 

[TimWilson]

Reading a chord chart and making magic out of it is the stuff legends are made of. Doing this in real time listening and interpreting, inventing and executing a fine performance on teh spot has a lot more mental processes going on than just reading the notation.

That's exactly right: It's a well-established fact (sadly so) that Jamerson had no more than a chart for MANY classic motown hits, and he created legendary bass lines on-the-spot with nothing more than those charts.

 

[BassLand]

That's really interesting, because although I admire JB's playing (in context), I think it's about the 'whitest' bass-playing around!

That may be how he plays but does not address what he listens to that makes him play that way. Did you know Jeff was a violin prodigy?

Maybe he was trying to expose the European students to something new to them.

 

[Philbiker]

2-Music education tells you what somebody else did and how they did it. In modern music the innovations are made from the individual and written about by the educators. It definitely has it's place but...

This is a gross oversimplification. A good education in theory can open ones tonal pallete for writing chord progressions and melody/harmony drastically. A good education in theory doesn't just tell me what someone else did, it guides me as to what I can do. A good education in learning what people did gives ideas for what I can do.

That said, I'm a mostly self-taught hack hobbiest and have no pretentions.

 

[BassLand]

This is a ridculous oversimplification. A good education in theory can open ones tonal pallete for writing chord progressions and harmonies drastically. A good education in theory doesn't just tell me what someone else did, it guides me as to what I can do.

It is still based on what has already been established. What you do with it is after the fact. If you do it well enough and differently you carry the torch forward and then maybe they will teach what you did.

Don't get me wrong as I have a music education and understand theory and harmony from a "educated" point of view but much my compositional efforts break many of those rules.

BTW not trying to be argumentative here just voicing my views. I accept your using gross over ridiculous and thank you for revising that.

 

[shank235]

Hi Shank235,

Two points addressing the two points above.

1 - reading music NOTATION is doing what somebody else tells you to do which I believe is relatively easy. lets assume out of a group of 10 musicians all can read the music. The one that gets the gig is the one that makes the music FEEL good and I think you would have to agree out of the 10 theoretical musicians all will play it at least slightly differently.

Reading a chord chart and making magic out of it is the stuff legends are made of. Doing this in real time listening and interpreting, inventing and executing a fine performance on teh spot has a lot more mental processes going on than just reading the notation.

2-Music education tells you what somebody else did and how they did it. In modern music the innovations are made from the individual and written about by the educators. It definitely has it's place but...

Very good post. I can definitely see every point here. Believe it or not I agree that there is magic in reading a chord chart and coming up with something on the fly. I also believe that a background in theory will help you come up with something even better on the fly. I also see the point about the audition, however there are many factors in an auditon not all of them related to music. Our band has a requirement that you be a Christian. As a Christian band this makes sense. It's all in what fits the music well. I think the point that I'm trying to make is that even Jaco realized at some point that reading was a necessity, he was a phenominal player before he read. If you are going to pay for formal music education why not learn standard notation and theory, as it will extend way past the bass world? Instead of becoming better bass players we should all strive to be better musicians. From the past posts I understand how subjective that is, my idea of being a better musician is increasing my knowledge of theory. Perhaps Jeff's start on the violin dictates the way he approached music now. I know my start of playing trombone in jazz bands and baritone in concert bands has really directed my approach. Maybe that's why I do agree with him the way that I do.

 

[Brad Johnson]

No reading chord charts is not reading music. I just wanted to make sure what I was saying was right. As far as engineers thinking outside the box I'm sure that's right somewhere. In my line of engineering it is basically studying specifications and applying that to application. A mathematical "engineering" approach would be different in that situation. There is no thinking outside the box, the spec says this therefore the program will do this, if the program does not then this is what will happen. You know what maybe your right, maybe I've applied this same concept to music. However I still believe education is important in music. The reason why Jeff Berlin's comments are so unpopular with some is that they cannot or will not think that way and are offended. The same way I get offended when people tell me music is all about feel and education is not important. But this argument has been going on for years remember when grunge came about in the 90's and everybody made fun of the technical bands of the 70's and 80s. That's all this is. I will continue to listen to my Rush records, and ignore three chord pop punk or computer generated dance music. If that stuff floats your boat more power to you.

Thinking outside of the box is what allows new things to come to fruition. You learn what the box is and then you can either dwell in it, which usually delivers nothing new or figure out ways to build on it.

Your reasoning on why people have a problem with Jeff's comments ignores what's actually been said and only relies on what you choose to believe. Another nice, tidy box.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Very good post. I can definitely see every point here. Believe it or not I agree that there is magic in reading a chord chart and coming up with something on the fly. I also believe that a background in theory will help you come up with something even better on the fly. I also see the point about the audition, however there are many factors in an auditon not all of them related to music. Our band has a requirement that you be a Christian. As a Christian band this makes sense. It's all in what fits the music well. I think the point that I'm trying to make is that even Jaco realized at some point that reading was a necessity, he was a phenominal player before he read. If you are going to pay for formal music education why not learn standard notation and theory, as it will extend way past the bass world? Instead of becoming better bass players we should all strive to be better musicians. From the past posts I understand how subjective that is, my idea of being a better musician is increasing my knowledge of theory. Perhaps Jeff's start on the violin dictates the way he approached music now. I know my start of playing trombone in jazz bands and baritone in concert bands has really directed my approach. Maybe that's why I do agree with him the way that I do.

Coming up with music on the fly with written or even verbal chord charts is something I do on a regular basis. A knowledge of theory desn't hurt but in many cases listening is much more important, especially depending on the context.

If you're going to pay for a formal music education, how can you avoid learning standard notation and theory?

 

[shank235]

Coming up with music on the fly with written or even verbal chord charts is something I do on a regular basis. A knowledge of theory desn't hurt but in many cases listening is much more important, especially depending on the context.

If you're going to pay for a formal music education, how can you avoid learning standard notation and theory?

Maybe you can't avoid it. My formal instruction is on the trombone and double bass, both of which teach standard notation. Maybe I made an incorrect assumption based on what I read online and in magazines. They seem to label everybody as a shredder or wanker, or groover. In other words if you are technical you have no feel, or if you are a groover you have no technical knowledge. Whatever I am tired of debating this. These are the reasons I left Talkbass to begin with. Opinions are welcome unless they disagree with the majority.