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What's the problem with jeff berlin?

#201
shank235 said:
If you were to take lessons or learn any other instrument. I don't know lets say violin or trombone or something. You will learn to read music, learn to play in time without a metronome, and will learn theory and not patterns. Why would this style of teaching/learning not carry over to the electric bass? In church I play with musicians that look down on music education in general. I believe it was Jeff Berlin who said this, and this is obviously a direct quote. Reading is not required to speak the english language however you can tell if somebody can not read two seconds into what they say, the same goes for musicians. I feel like he hit the nail squarely on the head with that one.
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I don't.
 
#202
shank235 said:
I don't know how to respond to that. Sir Paul had a knack for melodic basslines, that I agree is aweome. Writing cool melodies is what pop bands do, and it has it's place. Writing intelligent music in most cases has never been a certifying factor of popular music. Jeff Berlin, or any jazz musicians is much more qualified to be labeled a musician than anybody in pop music.
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:eyebrow:
That last sentence is honestly one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on TalkBass. A musician is someone who makes music. Playing jazz is absolutely not a qualifier to show that one is a better musician, and to think so is a preposterous notion. "Intelligence" in music writing has nothing to do with the number of notes you use nor the types of chord changes you tackle. A unique and moving pop song such as "Yesterday" is no less intelligent than "Giant Steps." Approach some real jazz players with the notion that any jazz player is more qualified to be called a musician than the members of the Beatles, Stevie Wonder, etc. and prepare to be laughed at. Jeff himself has a photo on his website of him bowing to a photo of Jack Bruce, and has named McCartney as a huge influence in his work.
 
#203
shank235 said:
I don't know how to respond to that. Sir Paul had a knack for melodic basslines, that I agree is aweome. Writing cool melodies is what pop bands do, and it has it's place. Writing intelligent music in most cases has never been a certifying factor of popular music. Jeff Berlin, or any jazz musicians is much more qualified to be labeled a musician than anybody in pop music.
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That is frankly ridiculous except as your own narrow opinion of what a musician is.
 
#207
I don't have a narrow opinion about what a musician is. I just feel that like everything else in life music should be an academic pursuit. If playing I IV Vs is your thing, than by all means more power to you. Most of what I do is probably within that realm. Do I like Paul M, absolutely. Do I think he could compete with Jeff Berlin absolutely not. As bass/guitar players we seem to have an approach to our instruments that differs from every other musical community. Try to apply at music program at any college without reading music and see how far you get.
 
#208
oi,..... it seems Jeff's only problem is that he presents his opinions and ideas as if they are the ONLY opinions and ideas of any worth. Everything else is invalid. Some of the things he wrote on Bailey's and Wooten's sites is just ridiculous, some of it worth considering, but it's all in the presentation. Never a "in my opinion...", just a "you're a moron if you think..." He burns a lot of bridges, but he's who he is and he is unashamed for it. There's also beauty in that.

"Better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you are not!"
 
#212
shank235 said:
I don't have a narrow opinion about what a musician is. I just feel that like everything else in life music should be an academic pursuit. If playing I IV Vs is your thing, than by all means more power to you. Most of what I do is probably within that realm. Do I like Paul M, absolutely. Do I think he could compete with Jeff Berlin absolutely not. As bass/guitar players we seem to have an approach to our instruments that differs from every other musical community. Try to apply at music program at any college without reading music and see how far you get.
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I know a lot of guys who get into music programs in college (as well as music college itself) without knowing how to read- music programs in college is often a place where players learn to read well. Do you think if you and Stevie Wonder were competing for a scholarship that his inability to sightread would make him an inferior musician to you to the eyes of the jurors? And what do you mean about McCartney "competing" with Berlin? I'm sure Berlin could play faster, solo over changes better, etc. I'm sure McCartney could write infinitely better songs and write bass parts that fit the music much better. That's not competition though- that's what they are as musicians. Neither is better for what they do. You seem to be speaking about jazz from a real lack of experience.
 
#213
Bryan R. Tyler said:
I know a lot of guys who get into music programs in college (as well as music college itself) without knowing how to read- music programs in college is often a place where players learn to read well. Do you think if you and Stevie Wonder were competing for a scholarship that his inability to sightread would make him an inferior musician to you to the eyes of the jurors? And what do you mean about McCartney "competing" with Berlin? I'm sure Berlin could play faster, solo over changes better, etc. I'm sure McCartney could write infinitely better songs and write bass parts that fit the music much better. That's not competition though- that's what they are as musicians. Neither is better for what they do. You seem to be speaking about jazz from a real lack of experience.
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I guess I must, just conversations with some previous members of the Airmen of Note. It's funny how I'm getting flamed for having a narrow mind of what a musician is, by people who are equally intolerant of my opinion.
 
#214
shank235 said:
I don't know how to respond to that. Sir Paul had a knack for melodic basslines, that I agree is aweome. Writing cool melodies is what pop bands do, and it has it's place. Writing intelligent music in most cases has never been a certifying factor of popular music. Jeff Berlin, or any jazz musicians is much more qualified to be labeled a musician than anybody in pop music.
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The funny thing is that jazz, like classical music, has always been closely related to popular and folk music. Any fake book is full of standards or pop music from the early twentieth century. Nowadays, many Beatles and solo McCartney compositions have become standards over the last forty years, just Stevie Wonder compositions.
 
#215
shank235 said:
I don't have a narrow opinion about what a musician is. I just feel that like everything else in life music should be an academic pursuit. If playing I IV Vs is your thing, than by all means more power to you. Most of what I do is probably within that realm. Do I like Paul M, absolutely. Do I think he could compete with Jeff Berlin absolutely not. As bass/guitar players we seem to have an approach to our instruments that differs from every other musical community. Try to apply at music program at any college without reading music and see how far you get.
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The more you write, the narrower it gets.
:D

"like everything else in life music should be an academic pursuit"? Fine... what sex academy did you attend?

"If playing I IV Vs is your thing, than by all means more power to you". This is true... it's damn near impossible to play anything other than a Blues progression without proper education.

"Do I like Paul M, absolutely. Do I think he could compete with Jeff Berlin absolutely not". Fine... lets see his entry at the next Beatles songwriting contest.

"As bass/guitar players we seem to have an approach to our instruments that differs from every other musical community".

How so? We have a relatively young instrument and far more resources available now than ever before... despite what you think, everyone does not need formal training. And yes, I've seen how much that bugs the people that do need it. Everyone also doesn't have the same musical goals. I know... shocking isn't it?:eek:

"Try to apply at music program at any college without reading music and see how far you get". Because again, in your narrow POV that is some sort of barometer. How many successful musicians do you think this applies to?
:hmm:
 
#216
shank235 said:
I guess I must, just conversations with some previous members of the Airmen of Note. It's funny how I'm getting flamed for having a narrow mind of what a musician is, by people who are equally intolerant of my opinion.
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If you consider this flaming vs. a conversation, I'd say that's on you.

You are spouting things from a severely narrow point of view. You clearly don't even see that. You can't even get past your own personal heirarchy of what's good and what's better.

You truly seem to be confusing playing a lot of notes with being a better musician. That's fine for your POV but that's obviously narrowed down to just that... your POV.
 
#218
shank235 said:
I guess I must, just conversations with some previous members of the Airmen of Note. It's funny how I'm getting flamed for having a narrow mind of what a musician is, by people who are equally intolerant of my opinion.
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I've always been fairly intolerant of ideas that have not been thought through and have nothing to back them up. Silly me ;)
 
#219
Dr. Cheese said:
The funny thing is that jazz, like classical music, has always been closely related to popular and folk music. Any fake book is full of standards or pop music from the early twentieth century. Nowadays, many Beatles and solo McCartney compositions have become standards over the last forty years, just Stevie Wonder compositions.
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That's what's so sad about this tangent... both Stevie and Paul have written a large amount of what are now known as standards.

Too bad they weren't "better" musicians.
:rolleyes:
 

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