Who doesn't read music?

[Richard Lindsey]

Then you haven't read the responses in this entire thread. There are plenty of people disparaging reading (calling it crap and such). Whether you think it's true or not, it is completely true. And, I'm not the first to say this... even in this thread. The more I learn about music, the older I get, the more I see this attitude.

Yeah, I've frequently seen this attitude on TB, in this thread and way too many others, though I don't think DWBass exhibited it at all. When that attitude crops up, it seems to stem mostly from a kind of defensiveness. ("What, you think you're better then me or something, just because you can read? You're not better than me! You have no feel!")

Completely unnecessary, in my view, for the little that's worth.

 

[glocke1]

If you're going to call yourself a musician, you should probably know something about music.

Many people that call themselves musicians know so little about music it's mind boggling.

Theres a female singer in one of the bands Im in that made some comment about not knowing what's meant by "A-minor 7th". She said this so matter of factly it caught me by surprise.

Frankly I just don't get willful ignorance. No matter what hobby or interest I am working on, I try to learn as much about it as possible.

 

[Hasty]

Not the poll I would have created. I just basically asked a question on who doesn't read music.

DWBass, based on every response I've seen from you, I know you wouldn't have created those options. I based those questions on this entire thread, surprisingly I've read every post on this thing.

Just so you know... these types of threads almost always boil down to the whole dots vs. non-dots route. However this place is way more civilized than most about it. Now you want to see some heated debate? Go to a Irish Trad forum. Those people can argue about dots!

Oh and in case you were wondering... I'm answer E bordering on F.

Chris

 

[pablomago]

Not well enough to play a gig reading by any stretch, but I can use written music to learn songs on my own. I'm better on treble clef. I play mandolin and learn fiddle tunes that way. But it really helps to hear what I'm reading.

 

[Marlon Carbone]

I'm hoping that this thread isn't morphing into a reader vs. non reader thing. I was basically interested in how many of us read during gigs. I can read but I cannot sight read on a gig. I can read chord charts on gigs if needed. However, I prefer to learn by ear and memorize. Nothing more, nothing less. Let's not turn this thread into anything more than that, please.

Fair enough. I think it really depends on the gig. If you're in a cover band that plays the local spots, probably reading isn't going to come anywhere near that gig. Though, because I can read, I have sub'd in a few bands. They gave me the set lists a couple of days before, with some alternate songs that might get called out, and I charted them myself. It's an easy way to play 3 hours of music when you know you won't be getting any rehearsal time with the band.

If you're playing in a Jazz band, reading is probably going to happen about 75%+ of the time. Some people just want to do standards and a lot of guys just memorize them (I've played "Chameleon" so many times I can fall asleep during the song and wake up after it's over.). Some are going to want to do some deeper tracks and you'll probably need a Real Book or something similar. You'll, at least, be reading chord charts. There's a misconception that reading makes you less able to improv. That is just not true. Improv is a totally different muscle that needs exercise like anything else. Jazz bands will have you reading... then tell you to take a solo. At that point, you're only figuring the measures and chords... notes on the paper be damned.

If you're doing the Broadway stuff (musicals), you're going to have to get your reading chops up to snuff. Those band directors want and need you to be able to read and you'll have cue-notes scrawled all over some of those charts.

It used to be, if you were going to be a studio musician, you had to read. Now, they don't care as much (we circle back to fewer musicians making music). They'll just play you a song and, if you get the feel and chords of it, they'll just let you have at it.

I've done some radio work. Some guys were more of a producer type and couldn't read music to save their lives. I had to make quick charts, on the spot, so I could get the cues the directors wanted me to pick up on. Other guys had music written out. Because I can read, I have been asked to play the bass and guitar parts. Getting double pay does not suck. Plus, primarily being a bass player, I have a sense of timing and rhythm... unlike most guitar players.

 

[Marlon Carbone]

Frankly I just don't get willful ignorance. No matter what hobby or interest I am working on, I try to learn as much about it as possible.

I agree, but be careful. That kind of attitude will get you death threats. Most people want to make snap judgments based on very limited information. They get emotionally attached to that information. In order for them to learn, they have to lose that emotional attachment and that's just too hard for most people, I'm sorry to say.

 

[togril]

A
I sometimes feel out of place but the BL has never said anything because I nail everything and am always prepared.

I suppose it's only a problem when a) you get asked to transpose on the fly - or b) the band is playing a new piece and you're playing catchup all the time. which slows it all down....but then it does sounds like you have all that sorted?

Just sit down and do it. Unlock the other 50% of Western music out there. To me it's like being a poet but not know how to write. I understand that people learn in different modes but this has been covered in many books now. My own reading came on miles by playing double bass with children at a bass camp last year, you forget all that adult stuff.

What stops you from making time to read? It's 12 notes. 12. If it's a pattern recognition thing, try glasses that are blue, or yellow. I have done that through the Irlen Centre, a Huge difference. Same as not printing on white paper, REALLY helps me!

It would seem like a no brainer, but so many have an aversion to it. It must come down to differences in learning and perhaps the visions of the piano teacher, standing just behind you, ruler in hand
Give it a go.
T Xx

 

[togril]

I agree, but be careful. That kind of attitude will get you death threats. Most people want to make snap judgments based on very limited information. They get emotionally attached to that information. In order for them to learn, they have to lose that emotional attachment and that's just too hard for most people, I'm sorry to say.

That really is their problem, we can't live a life constantly censoring ourselves on behalf of others, dangerous ground.

 

[The Owl]

I read treble clef, but not at the speed required for a stringed instrument.

I read slowly, honestly I do better with chord charts. I'd be the wrong guy to call for sight reading torrents of 16th notes, insane time sigs and odd rhythmic groupings.

That said, I have nothing but much respect and admiration for fluent readers and cannot understand the animosity between readers and non readers.

 

[Hambone70]

A useful and unexpected advantage of reading and basic theory (scales & chord tones especially) is how much quicker it is for me to now memorize a song. The patterns now make a lot more sense than they did when I was just learning by rote from tabs or video. And when I can't remember part of a song, or I don't have the music, the chord tones especially help me to fake it!

I can't recommend Guitar Pro 7 enough. For me, it makes learning a whole lot more efficient and fun.

 

[DWBass]

Occasionally I do come across a difficult passage and I'll have to transcribe it bit by bit. Then I run through it until I feel comfortable and then I memorize it. Again, I can read but sight reading on the spot is my weakness. I can read charts very well and much prefer them over sheet music but my preferred method of learning material is by ear. Been doing it since the early 70's. For any of you who are putting down one's preferred method of learning material......that just ain't cool. I'm just relaying my own experience. I still contend that just relying on sheet music doesn't allow a musician to 'feel' the music properly. The time sig and notes are there but groove and certain inflections are not. You 'must' listen to recordings to get a feel of what you are playing. And in my observation, I don't believe the particular musicians in my band are doing this.

This is just from my 40+ years of experience.

 

[glocke1]

I agree, but be careful. That kind of attitude will get you death threats. Most people want to make snap judgments based on very limited information. They get emotionally attached to that information. In order for them to learn, they have to lose that emotional attachment and that's just too hard for most people, I'm sorry to say.

The ironic thing about all of this is that the guys on here who are dissing those who have some ability to read, probably have no issue referring to tablature.

The ability to read is a tremendous asset to have, i sort of feel sorry for those folks here who don't recognize that.

 

[Williethedummy]

i think it’s great if you can do both. I started playing bass in 2011 at age 45. I’ve been playing drums since age 4. I started learning to read (drum charts and in that world this discussion is just as hot) around 1990 on my own, but in every band I’ve ever been in that wrote original music....I was asked to play the drums however I saw fit and none of the other musicians read. In that case (for me) it would not make sense for me to write it down then read it back. Same for bass. I think it depends on your situation. If you have great ears you can be that rare breed who is a session master and can not read a single note of music. Glen Campbell and bassist Pino Palladino come to mind right off the bat. You can always learn to read and succeed at it...but not so true to succeed in writing a tune your musical peers will say....” I like this!” That is on its own. I’ve even heard folks say “ I wish I could play the ‘ instrument’ but I can’t read music.” I suppose if you are going to do this for a living AND you want play lines someone else wrote for you to play who wants you to only read off the chart in written form, you must read to be able to do that. I’m not sure what it means to not understand music if you can’t read. Music is intuitive to begin with. You either get it or you don’t with or without reading. Certainly not a bad thing to do both...read and/or by ear. I was 4 when I started drumming and I listened to records to learn how to physically play the instrument. By ear. It was all I had. I did not even know about drum sheet music. I had fun jamming along by ear. I learned to play bass the same way...by ear. Personal choice I would say except...if you want to be a session guy and you are NOT Glen Campbell or Pino Palladino.

 

[Marlon Carbone]

... I was 4 when I started drumming and I listened to records to learn how to physically play the instrument. By ear. It was all I had. I did not even know about drum sheet music. I had fun jamming along by ear. I learned to play bass the same way...by ear. ...

I would guess most (not all) of us started the same way. You become enamored with an instrument, you buy one, you start playing along with the radio, YouTube, Pandora, etc... But, after that... do you learn to read, or just continue in your comfort zone going down the path of least resistance? Then, when you start trying out for bands and gigs... what level of musical commitment do you bring?

I think what the OP is asking is now that you are somewhat proficient in playing and you have played in bands and such... are you finding a need to read?

 

[string45]

Admittedly, I am a horrible music reader. I can read charts ok. In my main band, Brasswind, I'm the only member who is not reading music on gigs and it's funny many of them are amazed that I learned everything by ear and have it all memorized. Especially the subs!! They always ask me "You're not reading?" I tell them 'nope, got it all memorized!' They just shake their head! The band is comprised of mostly all musically educated members (subs as well), some who are music teachers/band directors/armed forces band members.

I sometimes feel out of place but the BL has never said anything because I nail everything and am always prepared.

How do you know if you're playing the part the arranger wrote if you don't read? If you read a little, why not complete the process. It's just a matter of repetition. Just like reading a book, you glide over words you've seen many times, but when you come to a word you've never seen, you have to stop & figure out what the new word means. If you care. Reading music is the same, especially rhythmic figures. After you've seen a rhythmic figure several times, you know what it sounds like & just play it. You don't have to stop & figure it out. It's not that hard, but at least you'd know you're actually "nailing" it, & can play something correctly the first time. It's like one mechanic that can just knows how to fix your car, & the other that has to go home & read the manual first.
You could also open yourself up to more gigs if you get the reputation as a bass player who can "nail" it the first time.

 

[DWBass]

How do you know if you're playing the part the arranger wrote if you don't read? If you read a little, why not complete the process. It's just a matter of repetition. Just like reading a book, you glide over words you've seen many times, but when you come to a word you've never seen, you have to stop & figure out what the new word means. If you care. Reading music is the same, especially rhythmic figures. After you've seen a rhythmic figure several times, you know what it sounds like & just play it. You don't have to stop & figure it out. It's not that hard, but at least you'd know you're actually "nailing" it, & can play something correctly the first time. It's like one mechanic that can just knows how to fix your car, & the other that has to go home & read the manual first.
You could also open yourself up to more gigs if you get the reputation as a bass player who can "nail" it the first time.

Agreed. However, I play cover songs/Top40. I'm playing 90%-100% what's on the record. I've found their bass transcriptions are not correct most of the time anyway. They are always correcting errors so I don't bother with what I'm given. Works for me.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I still contend that just relying on sheet music doesn't allow a musician to 'feel' the music properly. The time sig and notes are there but groove and certain inflections are not. You 'must' listen to recordings to get a feel of what you are playing. And in my observation, I don't believe the particular musicians in my band are doing this.

This is just from my 40+ years of experience.

Can't speak for the players in your band, but as a general rule, I don't think this is necessarily true. I've come across numerous examples of people who can play with beautiful feel and creativity sight-reading off a written chart. The key is that you need to know the particular language you're speaking at the time, so you know how things need to feel. You can get this from recordings of the individual song, but you don't always have to; you can also sometimes get it from previous playing experience with that musical language. If you've played enough sambas, you don't need to listen to each specific one to know what the groove should feel like.

It's true that written music is not a complete representation of what happens in music. No other representational system is either. You're always supplying something additional (or, I guess failing to) from what you know about the music being played. I'm just saying many musicians don't need to learn their part from the record to do so. That's my 40+ years of experience, anyway. In the end, it doesn't matter much how you get it, as long as you get it.

 

[KohanMike]

I played guitar for almost 50 years not reading music because I mainly played rhythm, and I was often told I should play bass with such good feel and timing, but I didn't want to be encumbered buy a large electric bass, forget a standup.

I took up the uke 5 years ago and a year later when our group leader asked if anyone would like to play bass to fill in our sound, I discovered all the bass ukes and small electric basses and went for it. Since I had to create my own bass arrangements without knowing music, I ended up creating my own shorthand to keep on track.

 

[7615]

Admittedly, I am a horrible music reader. I can read charts ok. In my main band, Brasswind, I'm the only member who is not reading music on gigs and it's funny many of them are amazed that I learned everything by ear and have it all memorized. Especially the subs!! They always ask me "You're not reading?" I tell them 'nope, got it all memorized!' They just shake their head! The band is comprised of mostly all musically educated members (subs as well), some who are music teachers/band directors/armed forces band members.

I sometimes feel out of place but the BL has never said anything because I nail everything and am always prepared.

learning by ear makes it much easier to memorize. Reading becomes a hindrance.

 

[DWBass]

I'm just saying many musicians don't need to learn their part from the record to do so. That's my 40+ years of experience, anyway. In the end, it doesn't matter much how you get it, as long as you get it.

Not saying they need to learn the part but they need to learn the "FEEL". Move On Up is not something they'd normally listen to much less know. Their knowledge of funk and soul are limited. This is why I feel that they should listen to the music in addition to reading the sheet music.