Who played in Kenny G live?

[bongomania]

The point you're making is that you're the arbiter of what's good.

False. I was saying that there really is such a thing as greater or lesser quality in a wide range of aspects, and that having the quality of "popularity" is not at all the same as having the quality of good musicianship. Continuing with my white bread analogy, everyone is free to be their own arbiter as to whether white bread is "good"; but it is the right and possibly even responsibility of those who are more educated about nutrition and fine baking to point out the ways in which white bread is not good for you. And that if someone sarcastically argues "I guess white bread must be terrible, after all it only sells millions and millions of loaves a day", that that is not a sensible or logical way to refute educated claims about nutrition.

More money doesn't guarantee quality, it can be had for less money. It also doesn't guarantee that someone will prefer it over something that cost less money.

Obviously, but again that has exactly nothing to do, on one side or the other, with what I was saying. Nothing.

You have this weird "quality" equation that I'm guessing you'd like others to buy into. The "masses" buy what they want and unless something is good enough for them to buy it, they typically don't. The idea that they "deserve" better music (according to you) than what they like is... well, what would you call it?

White bread.

 

[synaesthesia]

Oh music is just music. If you don't like it, move on. There are others who do genuinely like to listen or play music someone else doesn't like. But a closeted mentality doesn't help anyone. As much as you might hate fuzak or Barney the dinosaur, it is not going away; and any evangelistic crusade against the evils of music or the music industry is not going to make it go away either. A C note or an Amajor chord is used in music my toddler son listens to, punk music, death metal, red neck country, free jazz, polka, reggae, salsa, j-pop or fuzak. It doesn't come predisposed for any supposed intelligence or lack thereof.

 

[Brad Johnson]

False. I was saying that there really is such a thing as greater or lesser quality in a wide range of aspects, and that having the quality of "popularity" is not at all the same as having the quality of good musicianship. Continuing with my white bread analogy, everyone is free to be their own arbiter as to whether white bread is "good"; but it is the right and possibly even responsibility of those who are more educated about nutrition and fine baking to point out the ways in which white bread is not good for you. And that if someone sarcastically argues "I guess white bread must be terrible, after all it only sells millions and millions of loaves a day", that that is not a sensible or logical way to refute educated claims about nutrition.

So at no point in this thread did you make value judgements about what's good and about the masses deserve?

Sorry, I guess I misremembered that.


Have you ever considered that some people might actually prefer white bread?

Obviously, but again that has exactly nothing to do, on one side or the other, with what I was saying. Nothing

I disagree... with what you wrote. I'm talking about your posts in this thread. Maybe you meant something else.

White bread.

Guess you'd better go and save them... maybe one day they'll learn to be as judgemental as the people who have better tastes. We can only hope.

It's not enough to merely not care for what an artist does, you feel this need to have others feel the same whether they want to or not. Your tastes are only right for you.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Oh music is just music. If you don't like it, move on. There are others who do genuinely like to listen or play music someone else doesn't like. But a closeted mentality doesn't help anyone. As much as you might hate fuzak or Barney the dinosaur, it is not going away; and any evangelistic crusade against the evils of music or the music industry is not going to make it go away either. A C note or an Amajor chord is used in music my toddler son listens to, punk music, death metal, red neck country, free jazz, polka, reggae, salsa, j-pop or fuzak. It doesn't come predisposed for any supposed intelligence or lack thereof.

But people deserve better!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Wow, this is one UGLY thread. I'm gonna try to stay above the fray while tossing this grenade:

Richard Thompson has weighed into the debate with a song entitled "I Agree with Pat Metheny." Here's a place where you can see the lyrics as well as link to an mp3:

http://www.till.com/blog/archives/2005/03/i_agree_with_ri.html

Enjoy. I now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war.

That was even more lame than I expected. And the comment about him wishing he was Black was sweet.

Straight up hater with zero class.

 

[bongomania]

I disagree... with what you wrote. I'm talking about your posts in this thread. Maybe you meant something else.

If you're talking about the ONE POST where I said "with the basses quality costs more", that was strictly in response to the one guy who completely missed my point (just as you continue to) by trying to say I thought the dollar amount had something to do with the quality, which is not at all what I had been saying, and which I refuted in that post.

It's not enough to merely not care for what an artist does, you feel this need to have others feel the same whether they want to or not.

What a crock! I am arguing NOT that my tastes are right, or right for everyone else, NOT AT ALL. I am arguing that it is perfectly valid for me (and whoever else) to criticize KG, and that just because he has sold a bunch of records and tickets over the years does not invalidate my criticism.

Go back and read my posts from the beginning. The first post I made in this thread was just my personal slam on KG, and I had no intention of saying everyone else should agree with it, but I stand by my opinion and my right to state it. After that T-Most argued that since KG sold a million records, he must not suck. So I got into it, arguing that selling a million records is no way to judge his musicianship. After that, every post was me backing up that side of the debate.

IOW you are arguing with me consistently over the wrong points, points I did not make.

If you want to show me how selling a million units is the same as being a great and praiseworthy musician, be my guest. Anything else you think I said is just your own fevered imagination.

 

[MR PC]

What is it that you don't like about Kenny G?
Enough of the lame 'he sucks' BS; what is it; the tone, melodies, song structure, etc.,etc.
I'm really interested to know.

vail-bass, you started this (2001) seven year thread up with an honest question. Are you going to weigh in here?

 

[T-MOST]

For all who think KG sucks this should make you feel better.

10 million people bought KG records but that means that 4.99 billion people didn't!

 

[Rano Bass]

Do you think somebody with cultured food tastes will praise McDonalds food just because they sell so much of it? Will a bassist who plays a Sadowsky praise Ibanez basses just because Ibanez sells so many more units than Sadowsky? Obviously not- both McDonalds and Ibanez must be judged on their quality, not their sales figures. Same goes for Kenny G. Again, maybe it's wrong of me to tell people they "shouldn't" like white bread -after all, they'll buy whatever they like- but that doesn't mean I can't say white bread is crap, it's bad for you, it has no flavor, and here are some examples of good-tasting and nutritious bread.

See, you brought that to the table, you were the one speaking about comparing basses and of course it wes a very bad example.

Just making things clear for you.

 

[Brad Johnson]

If you're talking about the ONE POST where I said "with the basses quality costs more", that was strictly in response to the one guy who completely missed my point (just as you continue to) by trying to say I thought the dollar amount had something to do with the quality, which is not at all what I had been saying, and which I refuted in that post.

You keep saying popularity doesn't guarantee quality but the converse is also true... it does not exclude the possibilty that there is quality along with it. And all thread long you've decided what quality is... which is fine, then you go to the next level and say there's a responsibility on people apparently lie you to educate people about what you think is good.

What a crock! I am arguing NOT that my tastes are right, or right for everyone else, NOT AT ALL. I am arguing that it is perfectly valid for me (and whoever else) to criticize KG, and that just because he has sold a bunch of records and tickets over the years does not invalidate my criticism.

I didn't say your criticism was invalid nor did I say that you had no right to do so. But you have inherently said your tastes are right by running with the "educated" and "quality" stuff.

Go back and read my posts from the beginning. The first post I made in this thread was just my personal slam on KG, and I had no intention of saying everyone else should agree with it, but I stand by my opinion and my right to state it. After that T-Most argued that since KG sold a million records, he must not suck. So I got into it, arguing that selling a million records is no way to judge his musicianship. After that, every post was me backing up that side of the debate.

And if you really step back and think about it, T-Most is right. he must not suck... to his fans. Of course arbiters of good taste have a responsibility to make his fans realize he does suck.

IOW you are arguing with me consistently over the wrong points, points I did not make.

Here ya go...

What it boils down to, again, is that commercial success depends on appealing to the uneducated masses, not creating music that will be respected by musicians. And lest that statement be taken as elitist, my point is that the masses deserve better.

That was just plain odd. Steely Dan is commercially successful. So people deserve better? Better than what? Look at what you're saying.

Fair enough, and that makes me realize that I misstated my point. It wasn't really that the masses deserve better -although they do- it was that just because something sells a million units doesn't make it good or praiseworthy, unless you're an accountant. Do you think somebody with cultured food tastes will praise McDonalds food just because they sell so much of it? Will a bassist who plays a Sadowsky praise Ibanez basses just because Ibanez sells so many more units than Sadowsky? Obviously not- both McDonalds and Ibanez must be judged on their quality, not their sales figures. Same goes for Kenny G. Again, maybe it's wrong of me to tell people they "shouldn't" like white bread -after all, they'll buy whatever they like- but that doesn't mean I can't say white bread is crap, it's bad for you, it has no flavor, and here are some examples of good-tasting and nutritious bread.

It does not take a culinary degree to learn to appreciate good food.

You got me there! That's where elitism does come into the picture, unfortunately, along with peer pressure, which are the "dark side" of the side of the discussion I was taking.

Your entire stance is elitist.

If you want to show me how selling a million units is the same as being a great and praiseworthy musician, be my guest.

Sure... do you have a problem with Stevie Wonder, Eric Clapton, The Beatles, Motown, etc.? Or Weird Al and Vanilla Ice for that matter? Great is in the eye of the beholder and you've only got one set of eyes.

Anything else you think I said is just your own fevered imagination.

I quoted my imagination above


Just because it's popular doesn't mean it can't be good. But I've said enough, I'm sure you're way behind on educating the unwashed masses on what they should like.

 

[DWBass]

Wow! I'm actually siding with Brad Johnson!

(Not directed at Brad) I'm just wondering what makes Kenny G suck? He definitely does NOT suck as a musician! Maybe it's his songs? Are y'all the same cats who think Phil Collins sucks too? I've never seen such closed mindedness from so many of y'all!

 

[Matt Till]

Hay dudez,

Kenny G sucks!!!!!!!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Maybe it's his songs? Are y'all the same cats who think Phil Collins sucks too?

This argument has become so long and convoluted that I can't follow it any more - but there is a definitive answer to the above:

As a drummer - No!

As a singer/songwriter - Yes!!

 

[DWBass]

This argument has become so long and convoluted that I can't follow it any more - but there is a definitive answer to the above:

As a drummer - No!

As a singer/songwriter - Yes!!

But here's my thing.....no one is elaborating on why they don't like these artists! If one doesn't like the ballady, sappy love song, then say so! You can't say an artist sucks just because! It's obvious these cats are blessed with talent out the wazoo! So it can't be their musical skills! Not only that, how many have ever seen Kenny G (or Phil Collins) live? You can't compare what he does on record to what he (and the band) does live onstage!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I saw Genesis live in 1973 (with Peter Gabriel as vocalist) and it was all great, apart from the one song where Phil Collins came to the front of the stage and sang a song with acoustic guitar backing!

The contrast was immense!

 

[DWBass]

I saw Genesis live in 1973 (with Peter Gabriel as vocalist) and it was all great, apart from the one song where Phil Collins came to the front of the stage and sang a song with acoustic guitar backing!

The contrast was immense!

But what was it? His voice? The song? What?

 

[bongomania]

no one is elaborating on why they don't like these artists!

That's not true. There are at least two thoughtful posts in here explaining exactly what those people don't like about KG, plus my initial post which may not have been as thoughtful but which details exactly what I didn't like, plus a few posts that were shorter but where the person said essentially what they don't like (e.g. "he's boring"). Plus even if you disagree with what Methany had to say, you have to admit he elaborated exactly why he didn't like KG.

I'm still waiting for somebody to post some Youtube links showing KG doing something more musically inspiring than what I've heard from him on the radio.

 

[DWBass]

That's not true. There are at least two thoughtful posts in here explaining exactly what those people don't like about KG, plus my initial post which may not have been as thoughtful but which details exactly what I didn't like, plus a few posts that were shorter but where the person said essentially what they don't like (e.g. "he's boring"). Plus even if you disagree with what Methany had to say, you have to admit he elaborated exactly why he didn't like KG.

I'm still waiting for somebody to post some Youtube links showing KG doing something more musically inspiring than what I've heard from him on the radio.

Ok, 2 out of 117 posts! Youtube may not have anything to satisfy you. In addition, radio only plays a small % of his works. Ever hear him with Jeff Lorber Fusion? Barry White? His works produced by Kashif? He's paid his dues. I personally think PM is full of &^$ and jealous! He needs to direct his anger at record companies and the executives who work there and maybe the radio conglomerates! Why be angry at KG for doing what he loves to do? And why should he even care. There is a lot of music I don't care for but to say someone sucks is rude, insensitive and immature!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vtceoupYSWc

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

But what was it? His voice? The song? What?

I didn't "care for" either his voice or the song!!

If I'm being ultra-polite!

The trouble is there is so much wrong with say "Another Day in Paradise" that I could write a long treatise on it!!

But why bother talking about music that you think is crap?

I'd far rather talk about music that is great and what is great about it!

I have no desire to waste my time explaining what is wrong with music and I see nothing wrong with other people who feel the same way!

Some music just doesn't deserve an elaborate write-up!!

 

[Marcury]

Ok, 2 out of 117 posts! Youtube may not have anything to satisfy you. In addition, radio only plays a small % of his works. Ever hear him with Jeff Lorber Fusion? Barry White? His works produced by Kashif? He's paid his dues. I personally think PM is full of &^$ and jealous! He needs to direct his anger at record companies and the executives who work there and maybe the radio conglomerates! Why be angry at KG for doing what he loves to do? And why should he even care. There is a lot of music I don't care for but to say someone sucks is rude, insensitive and immature!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vtceoupYSWc

Wow! He can walk and play at the same time. Impressive, but this doesn't convince me that his playing is interesting or particularly good.