why 10s for bass?

[Rickett Customs]

Sadly not. If the frequency response and total cone area are the same then so will the sensitivity (if both cabs are fully optimised). If you fit a greater cone area into a smaller cab then you'll gain midrange sensitivity but lose low frequency sensitivity, which is why 8x10"s tend to be louder but have less bottom than an equal sized 2x15".

Alex

Well, I could see how the low end would not be exactly comparable.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I would basically be looking for a cab, that combines the right speakers with the right cabsize to accomplish top and bottom and a good midrange...a fullrange cab, really...

The mass market bass cab industry is mainly driven by two concerns: Will it sell? and Will we make our profit margin?
Whether it will sell boils down mainly to how it looks, and the accepted look is a cab stuffed with as many drivers as will fit in. What will deliver a profit is a cab with only woofers or one with woofers and a cheap tweeter, with the cab materials and design optimized for fast assembly with minimal cost of both parts and labor. What you're looking for does exist, but you won't find it in the lower price points.

 

[eno50]

Go back to the start and middle of the '70s. It started with one of the first two serious big honkin' bass amps. When Ampeg first made the SVT bass cabinet, they went for mulitple small drivers to provide projection, move a lot of air somewhat more efficiently, and to tailor the frequency response. The other big player at that time was Acoustic Control who went with a single 15" in a folded horn. That threw the bass further, but on stage it was hard to hear. It took a good distance for the waves from the two sides of the W box in a folded horn to focus and be heard.

But even after those two were popular, a lot of bar-band bass rigs were still based on 15 inch speakers based on the (erroneous) assumption that you need bigger speakers for bass. Then Larry Hartke made a bunch of 10" aluminium speakers and stuffed 'em into an SVT cabinet for some has-been nut case named Jaco. When Jaco hooked up with Guild to endorse the Pilot bass, he talked to Guild about the Hartke speakers. Guild and Hartke got together and made the first popular and good sounding 4x10 cabinet because they thought an 8x10 would be limiting the potential market. Between the sound of the 4x10 configuration and the very visible look of the Guild/Hartke, 4x10's got to be really hip. So lots of others started making 4x10s. David Nordschow (The Founder of Eden) was marketing PA gear when he kept hearing about the Hartkes. He figured there was a better way than what Hartke did, so he designed a speaker and cabinet which became SWR's original Goliath. From there the 4x10 configuration took off like crazy.

You can put four 10" speakers into a box that's the same size as a single 15, get a different sound (in my opinion it's a much better sound). Multiple 10" speakers tend to have a punchier sound, without the problem of flabby sounding lows. They tend to sound tighter and more focused, especially on stage.

Guitarists like 12" speakers because that's the typical guitar amp sound. Until SRV and all his miserable clones got popular, the most common amps guitarist aspired to were a Fender Twin Reverb (a pair of 12's), a Fende Deluxe Reverb (a single 12- a VERY popular studio amp), and the Marshall-style 4x12 boxes. BTW, the Marshall 4x12 started as an 8x12 for Pete Townsend. His roadies threatened to kill him because the cabinets were so big, so he had Jim Marshall cut them down in half.

While there were guitarist using Super Reverbs, and old tweed Bassman combos (both were 4x10 configurations) as well as Princetons (1x10), it wasn't until SRV did for blues what Kenny G did for jazz that we started seeing lots of folks wanting 10"s for guitar.

So, like most things in this screwy business, it starts with someone (designer and/or musician) coming up with something that sounds good to them, then it moves into being a fashion thing when lots of people start emulating their heros, then it moves into either remaining popular (4x10, 1x15, etc.) or falling by the wayside (folded horns, brass hardware) depending on how it actually works.

jte

HAS BEEN NUT CASE NAMED JACO? Feelings have been hurt.....

 

[alexclaber]

Well, I could see how the low end would not be exactly comparable.

Yes but if you compared a 2x15" and a 5x10" (very similar cone area) in the same cab with similar speaker specs then the loudness and bottom would be near identical.

Alex

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Care to edit that before the scientists prove that it's not true again?

Which scientist proved that? Bass in general is louder father from the amp, partly because of the long waveforms from the lowest fundamentals.

On a 40Hz sound wave, each peak is 28 feet apart. This is because sound travels through the air at a speed of approximately 1130 feet per second, and 40 waves are going past any given point in a second, each wave cycle will be 28 feet apart (1130 divided by 40 equals approximately 28). The distance between a peak and a valley will be half that: 14 feet.

In an empty field with no boundaries, you will hear the bass note cleanly from any reasonable distance since the alternating peaks and valleys just keep going right past you. In a room however, you have many reflections and rarefactions.

In a medium-size control room, 19 feet deep, a sound wave's compression peak will hit the back wall, reverse direction, and combine with the next rarefaction valley at one quarter of its wavelength, or seven feet from the wall in the case of 40 Hz. The rarefaction valley is one half of a wavelength, or 14 feet, behind the compression peak. Thus, after hitting the wall, the compression peak and the rarefaction valley, moving toward each other at equal speed, will meet at a quarter of the wavelength from the wall, or approximately seven feet. Note that no matter what phase of the wave is hitting the boundary, there is always a cancellation at the 1/4 wavelength point.

The same is true at the 3/4 wavelength point, while at the half wavelength point, constructive interference occurs, causing the note to sound louder than it should. So, someone sitting seven feet from the rear wall is in the null point for 40 Hz. If the song is in the key of E, this is a serious problem, since low E on the bass is approximately 41 Hz.

So depending on where you are standing, you might not hear as much bass.

Folded horn cabs are made to simulate a larger cab, and the horn structure itself does not amplify, but rather improves the coupling between the speaker driver and the air. Properly designed horns have the effect of making the speaker cone transfer more of the electrical energy in the voice coil into the air; in effect the driver appears to have a larger cone surface area than it actually does.

So that's why folded horn cabs often sound louder from the audience than on stage.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Not even close. For years, SRV favored Vibroverbs with a single 15.

SRV often had a half dozen or more amps of different types all mic'd up when recording.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Which scientist proved that? Bass in general is louder father from the amp, partly because of the long waveforms from the lowest fundamentals. .

-1. You have identified some of the reasons why bass sometimes is not heard as well closer to the source than further away, but the source has nothing to do with it. All sound sources are equally affected by room modes and boundary effects. The only reason why most folded horns aren't heard as well on stage as direct radiators is that most folded horns don't have the midrange response of a direct radiator. You hear a direct radiator up close because you're hearing the midrange. You don't hear the basshorn as well up close because there isn't as much midrange. If you have two sources with identical output at two feet they will have identical output at twenty feet or two hundred feet. 'Scientists' who proved this, all before 1940, include Bell Labs, Western Electric, RCA and Klipsch.

 

[greenboy]

Which scientist proved that? Bass in general is louder father from the amp, partly because of the long waveforms from the lowest fundamentals.

OK, you gave a breakdown of long waveform effects, but you forgot to notice that each location and each cab and listener position provides a different set of effects. One is just as likely to hear more bass at this frequency or that RIGHT NEXT TO THE CAB. It's a totally variable deal, not a fixed-in-stone thing.

At gigs I often find a sweet spot where I can bask in bassy goodness, a spot where a majority of lower frequencies are not getting nulled. And it's often very close to the cab, or right against it.

 

[Rickett Customs]

Yes but if you compared a 2x15" and a 5x10" (very similar cone area) in the same cab with similar speaker specs then the loudness and bottom would be near identical.

Alex

So if this were done on say, An Ampeg 810 vs An Ampeg 215?

 

[mpm32]

Why would you bi-amp and run the high end though 15's? I'd rather do 2X15 for the low amp and 2X12 or 4X12 for the high amp. You are wasting all that big cone sending just the high end though it.

I had the two cabinets on hand at the time. And, I didn't cross them very high. Also, the bottom cab was a bass reflex and the top cab was a regular slot port. So with the top crossed pretty low and bottom handling most of the lows it turned out to be a great mix. It wasn't a waste as it sounded great.

I do agree that there is some marketing involved in the popularity of the 10s. A guy walks into the store and looks a an 8x10 vs a 2x15 (if you can even find one of those in the store) and he thinks 'boy 8 is much better than two.'

Or, a 4x10 vs a 1x15 - same thought process. And lets think about the visual picture that 4 or 8 vs 1 or 2 presents.

Just like with cars, in the back of your head you hear V8 and think big/powerful and you hear 4 cylinder and think subaru.

 

[JKT]

PS- SRV made a watered down, instrument-centric version of blues popular with people who had no real interest in Albert King, Wolf, etc. Just as Kenny G made a watered-down, instrument-centeric version of jazz popular with people who had no real interest in Louis Armstrong, Miles, etc. But that's not germaine to this topic, I guess.


I must respectfully, and totally disagree with this statement.

 

[Jim Campbell]

PS- SRV made a watered down, instrument-centric version of blues popular with people who had no real interest in Albert King, Wolf, etc. Just as Kenny G made a watered-down, instrument-centeric version of jazz popular with people who had no real interest in Louis Armstrong, Miles, etc. But that's not germaine to this topic, I guess.


I must respectfully, and totally disagree with this statement.

while i would agree that srv's work did not resemble the blues of the delta,piedmont,etc i would have to call bs on the kenny g comparison.....apples and platypus' would be more similar.....ive got a pic somewhere of albert playing w/srv ........if blues got watered down it didnt come from stevie

 

[SGD Lutherie]

OK, you gave a breakdown of long waveform effects, but you forgot to notice that each location and each cab and listener position provides a different set of effects. One is just as likely to hear more bass at this frequency or that RIGHT NEXT TO THE CAB. It's a totally variable deal, not a fixed-in-stone thing.

At gigs I often find a sweet spot where I can bask in bassy goodness, a spot where a majority of lower frequencies are not getting nulled. And it's often very close to the cab, or right against it.

Right, I was pointing out that bass often sounds louder out front, and thats the reason why. I also agree with the previous comment that folded horn enclosures lack mids.

But I often like to sit out in the front and see what my bass sounds like, and it's often quite different than on stage. I have a Trace Elliott combo with a bandpass type cab. It has a single 10". It's remarkably loud, and as with most folded horn type cabs (even though it's not really) it lacks mids and highs, except for the tweeter.

The tone I hear on stage right in front of it is much different than across the room, where it's much boomier sounding. So I have to check the sound in the room to make sure I don't have too much low end.

I like to be a few feet in front of my amp. Not too close. I also like to get it up higher off the floor if I can. But that depends on which amp I'm using.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I had the two cabinets on hand at the time. And, I didn't cross them very high. Also, the bottom cab was a bass reflex and the top cab was a regular slot port. So with the top crossed pretty low and bottom handling most of the lows it turned out to be a great mix. It wasn't a waste as it sounded great.

OK that makes sense. I asked because when I fist got my 800RB it had an issue with the high freq amp , and it sounded a little gritty. Until I got it fixed I used my old B-15 cab (with a JBL) for the high end because it wasn't as bright sounding, and smoothed out the edge.

But the 2X12 cab sounded great for the top end. I used to cross it over fairly low to keep the mids in the 12's.

I do agree that there is some marketing involved in the popularity of the 10s. A guy walks into the store and looks a an 8x10 vs a 2x15 (if you can even find one of those in the store) and he thinks 'boy 8 is much better than two.'

Or, a 4x10 vs a 1x15 - same thought process. And lets think about the visual picture that 4 or 8 vs 1 or 2 presents.

Just like with cars, in the back of your head you hear V8 and think big/powerful and you hear 4 cylinder and think subaru.

As others have pointed out, it's about what sells. If company A has a 4X10 cab, company B better have one too!

There's nothing wrong with 4X10 cabs. I own one. And they do work well with 15's. I just like the tone better from 12's. It's different. It's kind of between 10's and 15's.

The old Vox 4X12 cab I had was perfect, it was punchy like 10's, but had a thicker overall tone. My Mesa/Eden 4X10 has a thick tone, but it's different. It doesn't seem to go as low until you really crank it. It weighs a ton (along with the head, which is half a ton), which is why I want to sell it.

 

[greenboy]

As any good sound engineer will tell you {especially one who has often pinked in six positions and then averaged the results;}, the distribution of frequencies varies widely in what is prominent and what is not at many positions within a room. No strategy of "I'm going to stand this far away from my cab during gigs" is necessarily going to be a somewhat representative match for an "ideal listening location" within different venues.

It could be 3 feet, it could be 13. Or just about anywhere, all dependent on venue, and positioning of enclosure.

 

[debassr]

I think it's mostly for portability reasons. I'd rather try to load and lug a 410 than a 412 or 415.

That being said, I no longer use a 410 - these days I use a pair of 112's because I like the portability and tone.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

As any good sound engineer will tell you {especially one who has often pinked in six positions and then averaged the results;}, the distribution of frequencies varies widely in what is prominent and what is not at many positions within a room. No strategy of "I'm going to stand this far away from my cab during gigs" is necessarily going to be a somewhat representative match for an "ideal listening location" within different venues.

It could be 3 feet, it could be 13. Or just about anywhere, all dependent on venue, and positioning of enclosure.

Agreed. Sometimes it sucks playing bass, because some rooms are just awful. I regularly played at a church gig that was in a beautiful old Unity church that looked like a barn on the inside.

Nothing I could do would stop my bass from being a boomy mess! And always too loud.

Then you take rooms with real low ceilings. That's a pain too.

We will leave the drum happy soundmen out of the conversation for the moment... that's a whole new discussion!

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I think it's mostly for portability reasons. I'd rather try to load and lug a 410 than a 412 or 415.

God, I remember bumping a big Peavy 2X15 up two flights of stairs! And at the time I weighed like 130# and I'm not tall. No fun. Then there were the two Cerwin-Vega PA cabs with 1X15 and a horn.

That being said, I no longer use a 410 - these days I use a pair of 112's because I like the portability and tone.

I'm planning on a 2X12 with tweeter. I already liberated my Trace head from it's combo cab. Time for a light weight rig.

 

[Dogbertday]

Lately I dig a solid 115 over any combination of 10s for that old school tone. A tight 115 EQed right sounds like a dream to my ears. (I use an Ampeg BA115 for this as well as with my upright). But for rock I dig my Hartke 410TP. It's punchy as all hell and I don't usually go below an E (Maybe D) in either genre.

 

[BassmanPaul]

I've always liked the sound of a good 4x10. They're articulate without losing so much of the lower frequencies. And they can produce good midrange, which is where clarity is at.

So I figured I'd like a 2x10.

Nope. Haven't found a 2x10 that I've liked. Ever.

I've found that I like 12's.

For what that's worth.

For interest Andrew, did you ever play though an Acme B2. One note sold me on them and now I'd use nothing else!

Paul