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Why are standalone preamplifiers a dying breed?

What do you think about standalone bass preamps

  • I wish there were more options for standalone bass pre's

    Votes: 89 28.3%
  • I think there are plenty of options for standalone bass pre's

    Votes: 70 22.2%
  • I get everything I need from integrated heads

    Votes: 91 28.9%
  • I used to use bass pre's, now I used studio channels

    Votes: 12 3.8%
  • I went fishing once. I like ice cream. Durr Hurrrrr....

    Votes: 53 16.8%

  • Total voters
    315
It would seem to me that the market is telling us that a high quality preamp will cost at least $1000 to build and bring to market including profit maybe more then that. Everyone seems to have reservations of some kind on the lower priced preamps. If you (generally speaking) didn't you'd have one of them, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I am not sure how that is saying the sub $1000 market is underserved? If a kit is so easy and can be such high quality I'm still waiting to hear the guy speak up who's selling them out of his basement.

Maybe I'm way off base here but it seems to me the market for bass players who want a pre/power set up in general is already pretty small, then you narrow that down to budget friendly gear.

Then you add in:

"if one could present to the market a 1 or 2 space bass-specific preamplifier with simple, flexible EQ, the ability to switch in a useable range of distortion and overdrive, usable compression and multiple outs / routing options for MAP $599.... I think a medium sized maker would sell them faster than they could make them."

I'm pretty sure they are not going to sell these faster then they can make them.
 
I'm sorry if I'm speaking out of school but this idea of entitlement really bugs me. As if some people in this thread seem to think they deserve to be able to afford what they want and if they can't afford it somehow it's someone elses fault not there own.

I'll tell you what's really a dying breed are affordable summer homes on the ocean. I'd bet if they could build 5 bedroom 5 bath homes overlooking the Ocean with close proximity to restaurants and in great school disctricts for less then 500k they'd sell faster then they could make them too!

I am sorry I don't mean to offend anyone but look back in this thread.
 
I'm sorry if I'm speaking out of school but this idea of entitlement really bugs me. As if some people in this thread seem to think they deserve to be able to afford what they want and if they can't afford it somehow it's someone elses fault not there own.

I'll tell you what's really a dying breed are affordable summer homes on the ocean. I'd bet if they could build 5 bedroom 5 bath homes overlooking the Ocean with close proximity to restaurants and in great school disctricts for less then 500k they'd sell faster then they could make them too!

I am sorry I don't mean to offend anyone but look back in this thread.

I can afford more than what I use, but I simply feel it's unnecessary to buy more than I need. I have a used Pedulla because I think it's all I need. I use a GK Fusion 550 through a 1x12 and a 1x15 because I don't need or want an expensive Schroeder or Bergantino cabinet to get the tone I'm looking for.

The gift of musical talent is all in your fingers to begin with, if someone can't play well all the best gear won't help them anyway.
 
I'm sorry if I'm speaking out of school but this idea of entitlement really bugs me. As if some people in this thread seem to think they deserve to be able to afford what they want and if they can't afford it somehow it's someone elses fault not there own.

I'll tell you what's really a dying breed are affordable summer homes on the ocean. I'd bet if they could build 5 bedroom 5 bath homes overlooking the Ocean with close proximity to restaurants and in great school disctricts for less then 500k they'd sell faster then they could make them too!

I am sorry I don't mean to offend anyone but look back in this thread.

Nothing to be sorry about; this has been a great thread and thanks for starting it.

BTW, in suburban MD and DC area you can't buy a starter home for $500K and 2 bedroom beach condos start at 7 figures.

Economies of scale, all you can do is the best you can do.

All in all, a great time to buy gear in that the no longer produced preamps are still around and available for $200 - 600used, and the same with power amps.

Haven't tried one but think that Carvin B1500 sounds like a great amp; if it only had a parametric for the mids I'd be selling some gear just to try it.
 
Nothing to be sorry about; this has been a great thread and thanks for starting it.

BTW, in suburban MD and DC area you can't buy a starter home for $500K and 2 bedroom beach condos start at 7 figures.

Economies of scale, all you can do is the best you can do.

All in all, a great time to buy gear in that the no longer produced preamps are still around and available for $200 - 600used, and the same with power amps.

Haven't tried one but think that Carvin B1500 sounds like a great amp; if it only had a parametric for the mids I'd be selling some gear just to try it.

To be clear I didn't start the thread but some parts of it I find very interesting others quite frustrating.
 
When your margins are tight and you have 3 or 4 entities all trying to make money on a $799.00 retail preamp that's true. The paradigm in general just doesn't work if quality and performance are the most important factors.

Personally, I've felt that the mass market has been dying for years in the music industry. How many people are there in the world anyway? And what percentage buys bass gear? When you're trying to sell huge volumes you have to reach out to everyone you possibly can, whether a pro or not. But most non-pros don't really understand the benefit of a preamp/power amp combination. Features vs. cost will be the bigger driver for them. So if they can get a whole integrated amp for $899.00, why would they spend 2 or three times that on a Pope preamp and a Crest CA-9? When your potential is a professional, or at least a PLAYER, he or she already knows why they need or want your stuff. The market pulls much harder then.

GM folded because they were forced to pay their unions WAY too much and because they built a business on "ether" by putting their focus on the credit market instead of in concrete products like a manufacturing company is supposed to. When you depend on people near the poverty line to buy multiple cars using credit extended to them by heavily leveraged creditors who know they don't need that third SUV but can make the paper work reconcile and sell it to a securities company in a package just to keep your cash flowing you have a doomed business model in the first place.

Damn, that was a long sentence.


I have to disagree. Gm has been using the union as a skapegoat for their own failure at making a desirable product. Ever since the early/mid 90's they have made garbage that nobody wants. They killed the G bodies by turning them all to front drive V6's, they make nasty cheap interiors that are overused throughout many models, they had poor reliability, mileage, and performace when compared to other brands. 95% of all GMs made in the last ten years were outdone on every level by a japanese car for the same price. It really is just pure laziness.... look at the pontiacs in 94-02' .... if you bought a Trans Am WS-6 for over $30,000 you got the exact same interior as a base level sunfire. same guages, same shifter, same dash, same buttons... its just cheap laziness on thier part and the arrogance that americans will buy it over a "foreign" car. Look at the early 00's impala, malibu, grand prix, riviera etc.... you could get an accord or altima that was faster, more reliable, better mileage... and the same cost. I know that the unions are costing them too much but if they made a semi decent car they wouldve at least had the money to pay for them.
 
I'm also a pre/power amp guy. I made the transition about a year ago after searching and searching for a good head that had all the features I wanted, with the power I was looking for, and that didn't cost an arm and a leg.

After a while I started looking into the idea of splitting things up and using a seperate pre and power amp because I liked the idea of how flexible it could be. If I wanted more power, get a new power amp. If I wanted different tone but I was satisfied with my power, get a new pre. I traded my old GK 1001-rbII for a SWR Grand Prix with a mesa SPAX7-A tube to replace the original stock tube and a crown xls602 which I donated to my band and replaced with a xti2000.

Last week I replaced my SWR (which is now sitting in my room collecting dust) with an Eden Navigator (WOWEE!). I haven't stopped getting compliments on my tone and my rig since I made the switch to seperate units and I don't know if I could ever go back to using just a head.

But, to answer the actual question at hand, I think this setup is going out of style for several reasons. 1.) convenience. Having this kind of setup can be a pain for some people because its going to make your roadcase heavy and awkard to carry and i think the idea just freaks people out because if something goes wrong you have more things to go through before you find out with the problem is. 2.) edjucation. I think a lot of people aren't aware of or don't know enough about this option to consider it for themselves. They may find it uneconomical or too complicated. 3.) availability. It seems rare to walk into a guitar shop and find a stand-alone bass pre for sale. Most people are selling heads so the idea may never even cross the mind because there are far more heads out on the market than there are stand-alone pre's.
 
I've been a Separates / Components guy for several years, after being disappointed with most integrated heads. As I said in another thread recently, integrated heads always seemed to fall into one of two categories; OK sounding head without enough power, and nice sounding head without enough power. (with the Carvin B1500 being the only exception Ive seen)

I'm in a pretty loud band, and I tour, so sometimes I run two large cabinets. I need 2 ohm capability at least half of the time, and tons and tons of clean power. Ive also come to the personal conclusion that the power driving a cabinet is AT LEAST as important as the preamp or bass I'm using, and most integrated heads just dont put out enough juice. Most of my peers / contemporaries feel the same way.

So, I guess I'm wondering why separate preamps are going the way of the dinosaur? Not so long ago, a touring bassist had a great many excellent choices in preamps. Not so any longer. These days if you want a rackmount preamp you're pretty much limited to choices:

Sansamp RBI / RPM / PSA
BBE B-Max / B-MaxT
SWR Marcus Miller (brand new item)
Alembic
Mike Pope
Eden Navigator (shortly to be discontinued)

Just a few years ago you had at least a dozen more choices from Ampeg, Aguilar, Ashdown, Trace, Peavey, SWR, GK, Epifani and several others.

These days a lot of touring guys I know are turning to studio recording channels... often reluctantly, owing to the fact that they're usually much more expensive, and their superior sound qualities are often lost in a live setting. Offerings from Avalon, Millennia and Universal Audio being good examples.

Aguilar made some of the greatest tube preamps Ive ever heard, and the Ampeg SVP-Pro is still my favorite choice.

What do you think TB? Were preamps such a specialized market that lacking sales necessitated discontinuation... or was it something else?

Anyone wish there more standalone preamps available?

I wish there were more GOOD bass pre's available - most of the ones I auditioned when I got my IP rig were simply awful; check my profile and look up my preamp reviews. And I think the great burgeoning of home recording on laptops has spawned an exponential growth in the number and quality of channel strips. At one-time the absolute ultimate state-of-the-art, the Aguilar 5 tube 2 rackspace 30 lb monster pre now was not even in the same LEAGUE as some of the channel strips I tried, and the little Summit Audio 2BA (Tuba) preamp I finally settled on made the Aguilar sound anaemic at best, at least with the IP rig; and my recording experience since bears this out. The Summit Tuba sounds amazing direct in in a studio setting, and needs little EQ, and this is from a guy who HATES DIs generally - much prefer a miked cab sound. That being said, miking this IP rig gives you one of the best bass sounds I have ever heard in my life.

Do I think pre's are a dying breed - possibly. But once the younger generation of bass players wise up a bit, and this 'retro' fad finally goes away and they start looking for real sound/power, they will probably make a comeback. Look at what Markbass is doing with their 'MoMark'...now THAT is innovative.

MOST bass heads on the market do NOT have enough power, IMHO, to reproduce faithfully what we as bass players are after. 300 watts is NOT enough - we need three times that, easily, for a small rig - 10 times that (or more) for a large one. It's not about volume, for me at least, it's about headroom and truly clean dynamics, not dynamics that are limited by a cheezy onboard compressor because there's not REALLY enough power to reproduce what's going on. The Berg IP rig, with 1,000 watts going into 2x12's, is the current state of the art for a small rig, and that shows the kind of power you need to reproduce an electric bass properly. And it also shows INSTANTLY any defects in a preamp - you can truly tell what's good and bad, because this system is so powerful, clean and accurate.

Cheers,
Cameron
 
Do I think pre's are a dying breed - possibly. But once the younger generation of bass players wise up a bit, and this 'retro' fad finally goes away and they start looking for real sound/power, they will probably make a comeback.

Here Here! I am one of those younger gen bass players (23) and I'm definitely learning that heads aren't always the way to go. Sometimes older concepts like seperates just work better (depending on your preference of course). And I totally agree about the MoMark, wow, there are so many options and the possibilities are endless.
 
Bassflute. +10
Its shocking how many people hear think that watts = volume. I work in the a/v industry so I deal with customers all day that ask how many watts each system has and then say that they dont need a receiver with over 50w per channel because its a small room. I have to explain the whole wattage thing to each of them. Youre absolutely right about headroom and dynamics being the goal.
If anybody is still having an issue understanding watts let me give you different type of scenario.

Picture a metal block sitting on a table and a guy in a suit sitting in a chair off to the left. Lets assume that this block needs to be moved forward and then moved back to its starting position. and lets assume that this needs to happen multiple times at varying speeds and with varying force.
Scene 1- a 110lb kid steps up to the table and grabs the block. the man in the suit starts calling out orders for him to move the block and he succeeds. however in the faster and more powerful sections he is kind of sloppy but still gets the job done.

Scene 2- a 300lb body builder steps up to the table. he gets the same job done but its precise the whole time since to him the block isnt all that heavy.

both people got the job done but one did it better. some might think that it was overkill for a body builder to be called in for this task but the fact is that since he was using such a lower % of his ability he had more control over the task. Now although the bodybuilder could have pushed the block right off the table he didnt do it because he was never asked to.

If you didnt figure out what im saying...
The man in the suit is your bass.
The person moving the block is your amp.
The block is your speaker
The weight of the block is your speakers sensitivity
 
MOST bass heads on the market do NOT have enough power, IMHO, to reproduce faithfully what we as bass players are after. 300 watts is NOT enough - we need three times that, easily, for a small rig - 10 times that (or more) for a large one. It's not about volume, for me at least, it's about headroom and truly clean dynamics, not dynamics that are limited by a cheezy onboard compressor because there's not REALLY enough power to reproduce what's going on.
What WE as bass players are after? Maybe what YOU as a bass player are after. I have never had a problem with clarity and headroom with any 300w amp I have ever used in my life, so don't speak for everybody, Cam.
 
what jimmy just said true. the type of basslines you play is a huge thing when considering wattage. if you play some slow blues on a four string you dont have the same needs in an amp as someone that plays deathmetal on a 5 string. also the cab is a big part of it. I had a bag end cab that required huge power to really get it to sing where as my old trace elliot was pretty reasonable in that department.
 
If "their superior sound qualities are often lost in a live setting" then why would touring guys spend the extra money? That makes no sense. If they believe it's gonna sound like poo, wouldn't they just get something that works...like the aforementioned bass preamps that are still being made (Alembic, SansAmp, Pope, etc.) ?

It is (almost) never anything else other than low demand/low sales = end of product. Ever.

well put.... and partly to the point..... Most of these units have tubes, compression and multiple routing options. I said that some folks I know who've switched to channel strips have done so somewhat reluctantly because there isnt much available for dedicated bass pre's with multiple routing options, real tube signal paths, compression and extensive eq. Comparing for example an Avalon VT-737 to an Eden Navigator.... the choice would come down to; is the eq, compression and tone that much better that they can justify the cost differential, and moreover, do they have the money to spend to begin with. If you did a blind "taste-test" in a loud live setting..... those sonic differences that were worth $1,300 difference to the artist, may be lost on the audience. If the artist bought the Avalon, my guess is he did it for the satisfaction of his own ears than those of the audience. My overall point here is... if there was a competitor to the Eden Navigator that sounded better but was still less than the Avalon... would it sell? If it had a competitor that sounded AS GOOD, but was priced less... would it sell? Is more competition and more product offerings in this segment justified? Fender, Markbass and Mike Pope all seem to thinks so... but its just a discussion.

:p

"if one could present to the market a 1 or 2 space bass-specific preamplifier with simple, flexible EQ, the ability to switch in a useable range of distortion and overdrive, usable compression and multiple outs / routing options for MAP $599.... I think a medium sized maker would sell them faster than they could make them."

I'm pretty sure they are not going to sell these faster then they can make them.

So what you're saying is.... if someone could manufacture a unit like this under these circumstances no one would buy it? Or, are you saying its not economically feasible?

If you mean to say it's not feasible, I'm gonna hafta disagree. Lets take the GB Shuttle 6.0 for example. $699 MAP. Dealer cost is probably around $450. Like anything else, this amp is the sum of its parts. Lets try and take a guesstimate of how much the actual parts / chipset for the output board is when looking at the whole... conservatively we can say 40%. So, if GB wanted to do a preamp config in that same box it would basically be a shuttle minus the output board, at a cost of $270. Would that $180 difference per unit be enough to both pay for a distortion and compression chipset? Absolutely. Would the remainder thereafter be a big enough margin to justify the likely radically fewer units they would sell? I have no idea... that's the whole point of this discussion.

Obviously GB wouldnt offer a preamp with a few extra features at the same price point as the 6.0..... that's not my point.... my point is that someone could effectively produce a very nice preamp at this price point. Would it sell well enough to justify? Who knows.....


I'm sorry if I'm speaking out of school but this idea of entitlement really bugs me. As if some people in this thread seem to think they deserve to be able to afford what they want and if they can't afford it somehow it's someone elses fault not there own.

I'll tell you what's really a dying breed are affordable summer homes on the ocean. I'd bet if they could build 5 bedroom 5 bath homes overlooking the Ocean with close proximity to restaurants and in great school disctricts for less then 500k they'd sell faster then they could make them too!

I am sorry I don't mean to offend anyone but look back in this thread.

Well it seems I may have inadvertently offended you somehow, as you seem pretty agitated about this.

This is not entitlement. I try to be a humble person and not speak after myself so I say this for no other reason that to disprove your assessment of my viewpoint; although times are pretty tough right now.... in general I have been able to afford anything I wanted that was commercially available. At my old band's height just 2 years ago I owned 6 basses from Zon, MTD, Lakland etc, 4 different preamps, a couple of expensive heads and half a dozen different hi-end cabinets, plus road cases for everything, power supplies, corssovers, compressors etc. Now, I have barely any gear, as money is tight and other things take precedence. If I wanted to, I could buy $20K - $30K worth of gear tomorrow, but other areas of my life would suffer for it quite badly, so it isnt justifiable. I dont feel I "deserve" to have these items back, nor do I feel the market should adjust its prices to better fit my current budget, or that it's someone's fault I cant justify buying more or better gear at the moment. Its about why isnt more being offered at any price point and why? This is simply a discussion about: 1) is there a market demand not currently being supplied 2) If yes, why do you think so and what would you like to see 3) If no, how do you think that change came about and 5) just me expressing my personal opinion that, with the affordability of today's impressive technology, a market segment likely exists that may not have been previously viable.

I think your comparison of mass-produced, three-figure audio electronics to custom built, six or seven figure luxury real estate is frankly a little silly. One is simply not financially possible. The other, demonstratively, is. Your assessment of my point of view is not only wrong.... its a little insulting, and its honestly a stretch to try and decipher how your reached those conclusions...

:confused:
 
I wish there were more GOOD bass pre's available - most of the ones I auditioned when I got my IP rig were simply awful; check my profile and look up my preamp reviews. And I think the great burgeoning of home recording on laptops has spawned an exponential growth in the number and quality of channel strips. At one-time the absolute ultimate state-of-the-art, the Aguilar 5 tube 2 rackspace 30 lb monster pre now was not even in the same LEAGUE as some of the channel strips I tried, and the little Summit Audio 2BA (Tuba) preamp I finally settled on made the Aguilar sound anaemic at best, at least with the IP rig; and my recording experience since bears this out. The Summit Tuba sounds amazing direct in in a studio setting, and needs little EQ, and this is from a guy who HATES DIs generally - much prefer a miked cab sound. That being said, miking this IP rig gives you one of the best bass sounds I have ever heard in my life.

Do I think pre's are a dying breed - possibly. But once the younger generation of bass players wise up a bit, and this 'retro' fad finally goes away and they start looking for real sound/power, they will probably make a comeback. Look at what Markbass is doing with their 'MoMark'...now THAT is innovative.

MOST bass heads on the market do NOT have enough power, IMHO, to reproduce faithfully what we as bass players are after. 300 watts is NOT enough - we need three times that, easily, for a small rig - 10 times that (or more) for a large one. It's not about volume, for me at least, it's about headroom and truly clean dynamics, not dynamics that are limited by a cheezy onboard compressor because there's not REALLY enough power to reproduce what's going on. The Berg IP rig, with 1,000 watts going into 2x12's, is the current state of the art for a small rig, and that shows the kind of power you need to reproduce an electric bass properly. And it also shows INSTANTLY any defects in a preamp - you can truly tell what's good and bad, because this system is so powerful, clean and accurate.

Cheers,
Cameron

<----------------- yeah..... what he said.
 
I can afford more than what I use, but I simply feel it's unnecessary to buy more than I need. I have a used Pedulla because I think it's all I need. I use a GK Fusion 550 through a 1x12 and a 1x15 because I don't need or want an expensive Schroeder or Bergantino cabinet to get the tone I'm looking for.

The gift of musical talent is all in your fingers to begin with, if someone can't play well all the best gear won't help them anyway.

No one is asking you to buy more than you need. Are you saying though that it is unnecessary for "more expensive gear" to exist? Are you inferring that if it costs more than you want to spend, it's unnecessary for anyone else?

We should go back to talking about something civil like expensive instrument cables.;):)
 
I have to disagree. Gm has been using the union as a skapegoat for their own failure at making a desirable product. Ever since the early/mid 90's they have made garbage that nobody wants. They killed the G bodies by turning them all to front drive V6's, they make nasty cheap interiors that are overused throughout many models, they had poor reliability, mileage, and performace when compared to other brands. 95% of all GMs made in the last ten years were outdone on every level by a japanese car for the same price. It really is just pure laziness.... look at the pontiacs in 94-02' .... if you bought a Trans Am WS-6 for over $30,000 you got the exact same interior as a base level sunfire. same guages, same shifter, same dash, same buttons... its just cheap laziness on thier part and the arrogance that americans will buy it over a "foreign" car. Look at the early 00's impala, malibu, grand prix, riviera etc.... you could get an accord or altima that was faster, more reliable, better mileage... and the same cost. I know that the unions are costing them too much but if they made a semi decent car they wouldve at least had the money to pay for them.

OH yeah!
 
I wish there were more GOOD bass pre's available - most of the ones I auditioned when I got my IP rig were simply awful; check my profile and look up my preamp reviews. And I think the great burgeoning of home recording on laptops has spawned an exponential growth in the number and quality of channel strips. At one-time the absolute ultimate state-of-the-art, the Aguilar 5 tube 2 rackspace 30 lb monster pre now was not even in the same LEAGUE as some of the channel strips I tried, and the little Summit Audio 2BA (Tuba) preamp I finally settled on made the Aguilar sound anaemic at best, at least with the IP rig; and my recording experience since bears this out. The Summit Tuba sounds amazing direct in in a studio setting, and needs little EQ, and this is from a guy who HATES DIs generally - much prefer a miked cab sound. That being said, miking this IP rig gives you one of the best bass sounds I have ever heard in my life.

Do I think pre's are a dying breed - possibly. But once the younger generation of bass players wise up a bit, and this 'retro' fad finally goes away and they start looking for real sound/power, they will probably make a comeback. Look at what Markbass is doing with their 'MoMark'...now THAT is innovative.

MOST bass heads on the market do NOT have enough power, IMHO, to reproduce faithfully what we as bass players are after. 300 watts is NOT enough - we need three times that, easily, for a small rig - 10 times that (or more) for a large one. It's not about volume, for me at least, it's about headroom and truly clean dynamics, not dynamics that are limited by a cheezy onboard compressor because there's not REALLY enough power to reproduce what's going on. The Berg IP rig, with 1,000 watts going into 2x12's, is the current state of the art for a small rig, and that shows the kind of power you need to reproduce an electric bass properly. And it also shows INSTANTLY any defects in a preamp - you can truly tell what's good and bad, because this system is so powerful, clean and accurate.

Cheers,
Cameron

Yes what he said.....again!:)
All this gear is out there. For my needs I got tired of turning up an integrated head and having the pre or the internal amp change in tone as the volume went up, where one part or the other was struggling to do the job. I play real quiet gigs and still love headroom. Your audience can feel the bass in their bodies in a pleasing way without volume.
The reason there is that discussion about lead sleds vs. minis is just this. Those lead sleds hold current to deliver transients and large deep bass. I look for this quality and capability in an Upright or DB; the ability to bring it when needed.

The young player falls in love with that 60/70s Bassman or Showman that someone gave him. Then he realizes that he gets drowned out by his drummers stick bag. Then he learns he can get as big a power amp as he needs cheap used and an Alembic pre that replicates those tone stacks. Oh yeah.