Why are standalone preamplifiers a dying breed?

[rpsands]

One thing that isn't noted often but that I really like is that if you want to run a stereo rig, pre/power is by far the best way to go. There are very few stereo bass amps an fx send/return for each side.

So, say you want to run one side high passed @ 200hz with a bunch of effects on it (or just plain pitch shifted up an octave/fifth) for example.

It's a lot more cost-effective to accomplish that with a pre + power + stereo processor (or just a pre that's stereo, there are a few, e.g. the F-2B).

Generally speaking, while not many of them do it, a lot of guys who use lots of effects would get great mileage out of a pre/power setup.

 

[SteveC]

If I wanted to carry all the stuff, I would take the pre/power a step further and run basically a PA behind me. I LOVE the sound of my bass running DI into a good FOH system - like the one at our church. My bass sounds fantastic there.

I use an 18 pound combo and just bought a 110 extension cab and I don't want to carry that around so doing anything more isn't in my future. But if it was, an 18" sub and 2 or 3 - way full range cab with a nice preamp, crossover, maybe a compressor and BBE type device and lots of power (headroom) in a nice wheeled rack would be my rig.

 

[peterpalmieri]

One thing that isn't noted often but that I really like is that if you want to run a stereo rig, pre/power is by far the best way to go. There are very few stereo bass amps an fx send/return for each side.

So, say you want to run one side high passed @ 200hz with a bunch of effects on it (or just plain pitch shifted up an octave/fifth) for example.

It's a lot more cost-effective to accomplish that with a pre + power + stereo processor (or just a pre that's stereo, there are a few, e.g. the F-2B).

Generally speaking, while not many of them do it, a lot of guys who use lots of effects would get great mileage out of a pre/power setup.

I'll continue to be a pain in the butt

I'm not sure why the "pre/power guys" continually need to come in and justify themselves? And why the "I don't need more then 300 watt guys" need to shoot them down?

For a thread that is billed as being a discussion on existing bass dedicated preamps or the lack of, I'm not hearing more then a small handful of guys bring anything meaningful to the table.

Those few that have decent bass preamp knowledge not included I'm hearing, it's loud and it's cheap. Personally I'm fairly disappointed in the lack of knowledge on Pres, I guess it speaks volumes to Mr. Pope's comments...It bears repeating

Personally, I've felt that the mass market has been dying for years in the music industry. How many people are there in the world anyway? And what percentage buys bass gear? When you're trying to sell huge volumes you have to reach out to everyone you possibly can, whether a pro or not. But most non-pros don't really understand the benefit of a preamp/power amp combination. Features vs. cost will be the bigger driver for them. So if they can get a whole integrated amp for $899.00, why would they spend 2 or three times that on a Pope preamp and a Crest CA-9? When your potential is a professional, or at least a PLAYER, he or she already knows why they need or want your stuff. The market pulls much harder then.

 

[rpsands]

I guess what I'm saying is not self-justification - I'm a member of the "It's loud and cheap and flexible" crowd.

What I'm getting at is there're always going to be people who want to use stereo rigs with lots of effects, and the preamp market is going to be there for that. Any preamp is going to be better than almost any bass amp, because of the built in two channels in almost every power amp.

I tend to agree though that the market is narrow for obvious reasons and that's not going to change. What is changing is that it's getting a lot cheaper to source parts for building your own, or having a custom one built. Heck, if you shop around you can find kits/parts and have a preamp custom made for cheaper than a new Eden preamp (and a heck of a lot cheaper than a Pope preamp).

Another big problem is that unlike bass amps, preamps last a very very long time because they don't have as many components to fail. The used market is probably nearly enough to support most people who need them

 

[pablomigraine]

all that being said........... anyone wanna sell me their Ampeg SVP-BSP on the installment plan?

 

[peterpalmieri]

I guess what I'm saying is not self-justification - I'm a member of the "It's loud and cheap and flexible" crowd.

What I'm getting at is there're always going to be people who want to use stereo rigs with lots of effects, and the preamp market is going to be there for that. Any preamp is going to be better than almost any bass amp, because of the built in two channels in almost every power amp.

I tend to agree though that the market is narrow for obvious reasons and that's not going to change. What is changing is that it's getting a lot cheaper to source parts for building your own, or having a custom one built. Heck, if you shop around you can find kits/parts and have a preamp custom made for cheaper than a new Eden preamp (and a heck of a lot cheaper than a Pope preamp).

Another big problem is that unlike bass amps, preamps last a very very long time because they don't have as many components to fail. The used market is probably nearly enough to support most people who need them

1. I guess you could build your own preamp for "cheaper" I'm not convinced it would be the same or better though....If I was willing to go out on a limb I might say not in the same ballpark...

2. I wasn't aware of the "big problem" that bass amps don't last very long. Someone obviously forgot to tell all the rehearsal studios that have 400/800RBs in the back line for the last 25 years.

 

[chadds]

As good as the new heads are, seems folks are seeking even more clarity going to channel strips from dedicated bass pres. Seems sound is driving these folks.

 

[BassmanPaul]

1. I guess you could build your own preamp for "cheaper" I'm not convinced it would be the same or better though....If I was willing to go out on a limb I might say not in the same ballpark....

There are folks on this site, and out in the world for that matter, who are capable of building world class electronics. No it might not be cheaper if you use the best components out there but it can be and IS being done. Comparing an average commercial product to what these guys put together is not only not in the same ballpark, there're not even in the same country!!

Paul

 

[rpsands]

1. I guess you could build your own preamp for "cheaper" I'm not convinced it would be the same or better though....If I was willing to go out on a limb I might say not in the same ballpark...

2. I wasn't aware of the "big problem" that bass amps don't last very long. Someone obviously forgot to tell all the rehearsal studios that have 400/800RBs in the back line for the last 25 years.

You're awfully confrontational about generalized statements. Generally speaking, I think that you will see a larger percentage of preamps lasting 10-20 years than you will bass amps.

Of course there are exceptions but but in general there are fewer parts to go bad on a bass preamp, they're under less stress, and so on.

The "big problem" I was referring to was that there are a lot of bass preamps on the used market relative to the number of people who want them, not the reliability of bass amps.

 

[chadds]

When the big companies can't the Ma & Pas can do well. They don't have to make thousands of units and can craft stuff with real players input.
Most of our famous pres are from small manufacturers.

 

[rpsands]

1. I guess you could build your own preamp for "cheaper" I'm not convinced it would be the same or better though....If I was willing to go out on a limb I might say not in the same ballpark...

Regarding this one: I will literally guarantee you that you could get someone to build you a high quality preamp that will surpass or equal many of the commercial preamps for less than they cost new. Even if it comes down to just buying a kit and having someone put it together.

This is disregarding super boutique pre's of course as I haven't the experience with them to talk in anything but broad strokes.

 

[Sliderbass]

Anyone want to sell me one of those useless Aguilar DB-680's?

Please

 

[peterpalmieri]

There are folks on this site, and out in the world for that matter, who are capable of building world class electronics. No it might not be cheaper if you use the best components out there but it can be and IS being done. Comparing an average commercial product to what these guys put together is not only not in the same ballpark, there're not even in the same country!!

Paul

He wasn't comparing any old average commercial product but was rather taking a direct swipe at Mike Pope's preamp. Maybe I read it wrong but it sounded like a pretty direct attack on Mike. It really doesn't seem all that cool considering Mike has contributed to the thread. And by many accounts his pres are world class.

Rpsand, I'm not being confrontational but you just made that up about amps not lasting very long. It's just not true.

I am finding that what companies like Millennia, Summit Audio, Universal Audio, API, A Design among many many others are putting out great products and since they are also being sold to the recording industry they're not stuck just catering to the very small market of bass players. They are readily available in the big box stores and used on Ebay and in the classifieds. When you include them in the mix the options are wide open.

 

[Jim C]

Intresting idea about putting a kit together and would be very up for it assuming that PC boards and components were included and that all it would take would be the enclosure and soldering.
Does a high quality animal like this exist?

 

[Zooberwerx]

Of course there are exceptions but but in general there are fewer parts to go bad on a bass preamp, they're under less stress, and so on.

Yes, but for every bass preamp, isn't there an accompanying power amp which may experience technical issues? That's been a continuing concern of mine but I figured if the power amps conks out, I can keep the pre and watch the classifieds. Same holds true if the pre bites the dust.

What components are most prone to fail and why?

Riis

 

[rpsands]

He wasn't comparing any old average commercial product but was rather taking a direct swipe at Mike Pope's preamp. Maybe I read it wrong but it sounded like a pretty direct attack on Mike. It really doesn't seem all that cool considering Mike has contributed to the thread. And by many accounts his pres are world class.

Rpsand, I'm not being confrontational but you just made that up about amps not lasting very long. It's just not true.

I am finding that what companies like Millennia, Summit Audio, Universal Audio, API, A Design among many many others are putting out great products and since they are also being sold to the recording industry they're not stuck just catering to the very small market of bass players. They are readily available in the big box stores and used on Ebay and in the classifieds. When you include them in the mix the options are wide open.

1) I didn't attack Mike Pope's preamp. I said you can probably get something close to comparable for cheaper if you shop around and research, basically, and I mean that. His pre is very, very expensive. I have no criticism for his designs but very few people are going to pay that kind of price. Calling something expensive isn't attacking someone.

2) I didn't say "all bass amps have a short lifespan." I said bass amps likely fail more often than bass preamps, so the supply of bass preamps on the used market is more likely to impact demand than that of bass amps.

Another thing to keep in mind here is that you see new tech in bass preamps a lot less often than you see it in bass amps. A lot of the innovation in bass amps lately has been in the power section rather than the pre section also.

The bottom line point I was making is that it seems to me that there are more desirable bass preamps on the used market relative to the population of people who want them, than there are desirable bass amps on the used market relative to the number of people who want them.

There are lots of factors I think bring that about, but one of them is that bass preamps have fewer parts than bass amps and are subjected to less stress (e.g. heat/power/etc).

I don't see what's so hard to comprehend about that.

 

[rpsands]

Yes, but for every bass preamp, isn't there an accompanying power amp which may experience technical issues? That's been a continuing concern of mine but I figured if the power amps conks out, I can keep the pre and watch the classifieds. Same holds true if the pre bites the dust.

What components are most prone to fail and why?

Riis

This is my point, and I'm not positive about it. It seems like a given though.

I AM NOT SAYING PRE/POWER IS MORE RELIABLE THAN A BASS HEAD (although that might be the case).

I am saying that a bass preamp on its own is more likely to survive to old age than a bass amp, which probably causes a bigger supply in the used market.

That could be a wrong statement but Peter is not understanding what I'm saying at all

 

[rpsands]

Intresting idea about putting a kit together and would be very up for it assuming that PC boards and components were included and that all it would take would be the enclosure and soldering.
Does a high quality animal like this exist?

There are a number of options.

1- guitar preamp kits are, for a skilled tech, not terribly complex to modify to be suitable for bass

2- there are a few bass preamp kits out there
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3- you can modify old gear, and/or mic preamps to be suitable for bass if you have the skill set. an example might be picking up an old guitar preamp and modding it for bass. or stripping the preamp board out of an old bass amp.


I believe someone in the classifieds had a copy of an Acoustic amp preamp he made himself, looked pretty cool

 

[fokof]

I mostly choose channel strip type of pres because I also use them to record , they fit two roles. My day job is both bass player and sound engineer.
I'm sure most bass players in my situation would choose a 1000$ pre over an integrated amp

A couple of reason I'm thinking channel strips are an advantage over standard "bass preamps" ;

-They are usually more flexible , in EQ'ing , range of dynamics , etc...
as opposed to "bass only "preamps. They have to cover low gain mike to high input instruments.
-Usually can run either a mic or an instrument , can be usefull in a lot of situation if you are a working musician.
-Also some models have imp. selection capacities wich is a big "tone finding plus" in my book. Think piezos, mag , dynamic mics.....

All this IMHO , IME , bla bla bla.....

 

[SteveC]

I have been tempted to go the channel strip route. As I said before I love the sound of my bass into a PA/recorded. I would do this if I knew I'd have a PA all the time - even if it wasn't a great one. The problem is when there isn't a PA I'd need to have an amp and a really good full range cab(s).