Why are standalone preamplifiers a dying breed?

[pablomigraine]

To bring this back on topic....

I'd be curious to know from the pre/power guys exactly what is missing from the current available line up of preamps? There seems to be a nice selection of tube and SS along with some fairly transapent and others that are coloured...

A Sansamp RBI is just over $300, Demeter HBP-1 for $850 and the Pope for $1500 with allot inbetween, what exactly am I missing?

Well, for example, I feel a huge spot has been left vacant by the Ampeg line of pre's.... The SVP-BSP and the SWR IOD were the only preamps offering the user two separate, tube loaded channels with switchable distortion. The SVP-Pro offered every imaginable Ampeg tone and some distinctly it's own.

The RBI cannot really cop these feel IMHO, as not matter what setting I tried with this unit and its pedal sisters, there was a "boominess" and indistinct low-bass region that could not be fixed... not to mention having pitifully limited EQ when compared to the Ampeg units..... oh and if you want footswitchable channels, eq or distortion In/Out you need the programmable pedal, the PSA-1, or 4 RBI's. I've tried to like the RBI... and I spent a lot of time with it. For me its great studio tool but its just not my thing live.

Both the Demeter's and the BBE are in the "hi-fi" or clean-clean category (with the HBP-1 being the slightly tubbier of the two).... as is the outrageously expensive Pope. This is the one area not underserved.... and the one area I feel SHOULD be trimmed..... as those tones can be copped quite well by the ever growing buffet of hi-power, lo-weight next generation superheads. The only preamp I can think of in this category that HAS been trimmed was the Aguilar DB680. A great pre in its own right.... just not different enough from the rest in this crowd

But what about the Really TUBEY sounds..... Right now the Kern stands alone to my knowledge.... with the Alembic bridging the gap between this and the previous category. Used to be a pretty dense crowd..... The Ampeg's sat right here ( FIVE tubes in the SVP-Pro, 4 in the CL).... with the added benefit of being designed to cover the full range of OD and distortion sounds as well..... the there's the deliciously tubby and all around sexy DB659, the Trace V-type and others.

And what about the super flexible Eden Navigator? This pre can be everything to anyone.... but has always been missing a certain punch and presence.... and cant get very dirty.... doesnt this excellent unit deserve some competition?

I guess if the question is, what am I looking for? I guess the answer would be a 2 rackspace, 2 channel preamp with tube driven eq on each (not just a single 12AX7 on the input for show...), with the second channel having real OD and distortion capabilities, 2 independant FX loops, ability to switch and combine channels with a footswitch, multiple buffered outs etc.

 

[peterpalmieri]

One thing that is missing in 98% of bass heads and that you can only find in Channel strips type pres is a "Q" on the parametric section.
And two of these please.
I don't always want to cut 1/2 an octave , 1/10 usually enough...

That's why I love my 828mkIII, the EQ and comp are AMAZING.....

Also this guy is pretty good for the price , the EQ is "scalpel" like....
Invalid Link Removed

PS the Smartube thing is useless...

Understood but my question was what is missing in preamps, NOT what features are bass heads missing...My Iamp Pro is selectable from a narrow to wide Q which is all I need on a gig. The Millennia has an adjustable Q it's nice in the studio but a little to much to be playing with on a gig IMO..

 

[pablomigraine]

....My Iamp Pro is selectable from a narrow to wide Q which is all I need on a gig. The Millennia has an adjustable Q it's nice in the studio but a little to much to be playing with on a gig IMO..

I actually love the IAmps. Now, if they could fill those black boxes up with tubes and give them an AB power section with 1200+ watts.... then I wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Well, for example, I feel a huge spot has been left vacant by the Ampeg line of pre's.... The SVP-BSP and the SWR IOD were the only preamps offering the user two separate, tube loaded channels with switchable distortion. The SVP-Pro offered every imaginable Ampeg tone and some distinctly it's own.

The RBI cannot really cop these feel IMHO, as not matter what setting I tried with this unit and its pedal sisters, there was a "boominess" and indistinct low-bass region that could not be fixed... not to mention having pitifully limited EQ when compared to the Ampeg units..... oh and if you want footswitchable channels, eq or distortion In/Out you need the programmable pedal, the PSA-1, or 4 RBI's. I've tried to like the RBI... and I spent a lot of time with it. For me its great studio tool but its just not my thing live.

Both the Demeter's and the BBE are in the "hi-fi" or clean-clean category (with the HBP-1 being the slightly tubbier of the two).... as is the outrageously expensive Pope. This is the one area not underserved.... and the one area I feel SHOULD be trimmed..... as those tones can be copped quite well by the ever growing buffet of hi-power, lo-weight next generation superheads. The only preamp I can think of in this category that HAS been trimmed was the Aguilar DB680. A great pre in its own right.... just not different enough from the rest in this crowd

But what about the Really TUBEY sounds..... Right now the Kern stands alone to my knowledge.... with the Alembic bridging the gap between this and the previous category. Used to be a pretty dense crowd..... The Ampeg's sat right here ( FIVE tubes in the SVP-Pro, 4 in the CL).... with the added benefit of being designed to cover the full range of OD and distortion sounds as well..... the there's the deliciously tubby and all around sexy DB659, the Trace V-type and others.

And what about the super flexible Eden Navigator? This pre can be everything to anyone.... but has always been missing a certain punch and presence.... and cant get very dirty.... doesnt this excellent unit deserve some competition?

I guess if the question is, what am I looking for? I guess the answer would be a 2 rackspace, 2 channel preamp with tube driven eq on each (not just a single 12AX7 on the input for show...), with the second channel having real OD and distortion capabilities, 2 independant FX loops, ability to switch and combine channels with a footswitch, multiple buffered outs etc.

First it sounds like you know exactly what you want, so why not save up and have it built to your specs?

You seem very knowledgable on the subject, you seem to have played just about everything but for some reason don't own any of them, why? If the Ampeg or Aguilar are so great why didn't you just buy one when they were being made? In some ways I underestand how you can be frustrated but on the other hand you only want what is no longer available. Again if any of those are that great find one used....

 

[fokof]

Understood but my question was what is missing in preamps, NOT what features are bass heads missing...

Doh! Preamps in general , I think that there is enough choice for everybody , the only thing is being able to try them all !!!!
Personaly , I have the Crest ST2 , and a Focusrite wich are good , both with their caracteristcs. I have a TD100 , a little tubey , and a LA610 , lot more tubey. I also use a DBX 566 (a tube comp) wich has an instrument "drive" input , it has it's own very distinct sound.
My "holy one" is my Bryston BMP-2.
I don't bring it on gigs very often , it's not insured

My Iamp Pro is selectable from a narrow to wide Q which is all I need on a gig. The Millennia has an adjustable Q it's nice in the studio but a little to much to be playing with on a gig IMO..

I like being able to find "the" ringing frequency and then narrow it down to what's only needed , that's why I love sweepable "Q" in a live setting. Like on any more "serious" or digital FOH boards.

 

[Jim C]

I can just see this turning into a "Watts is Watts" cage-match thread.....

Yes, I use a lot of power.... I run two big cabs at volumes many players would consider insane.... I'm a touring rock / metal bassist. Everything I own is racked.

Seriously kids.... if you're a coffee house / bar player and the loudest thing you've every needed was a Markbass LM and 210... you cant really comment objectively here...

I'm looking after the opinions of people who've used separates and like it, or use them out of neccesity....

It isnt just a matter of watts. Yes, PA amps sound MUCH better than the power sections of MOST integrated heads... and a good preamp with a good power amp almost always sounds better and gets louder than an integrated head for less money.. but thats only part of the argument...

What about compatibility / flexibility? Running one 410 on Monday night and 3 810's on Friday night. What about being able to switch up your sound completely and still have your same power section? I can take my 4 rackspace "mini" rig and run one side of it to power a 210 at a small club gig, and I can also run 4 410s at the water street music hall...

I'm also not buying the weight argument. An SVP-Pro and a QSC PLX still weighs a heck of a lot less than and Ampeg SVT 4Pro, and my Eden Navigator + Carvin DCM still weighs less and has more features than any integrated head available for less than $1800.

and so on.

Its dinner time. I leave Mr. Jung to speak as my representative in the interim.

I had been happy with an SVT until I fell for this Berg 322 cabinet that is not particularly effecient.
I was forced into the land of pre / power amps and have been pretty happy with a borrowed Yamaha PB-1 as the Alembic that I've used in the studio as a keyboard warmer doesn't have enough range for me for bass.

Just wish i could lease or borrow some pre's for comparrison.

Am hoping that the Sansamp RPM might be versatile enough but the voice in my head says I have to try either a SVP or CL pre-amp at some pont.

 

[OldogNewTrick]

Fender seems to have embraced the separate preamp/power amp
idea with their Invalid Link Removed

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I really like this preamp for a full clean tubey sound. Plus, with the cost per watt ratio as low as now, it will let you biamp your 2 channel poweramp. and drive a modular cab setup like the greenboy fEarful.

But somehow not much love shown for this excellent preamp here on TB


Edit: pablomigraine, just for interests sake, why did you leave this one out of the preamps listed in your original post ?

 

[scowboy]

Another hat in the ring for pre/power advocates. I must admit though that I just went through the "weighing my options" phase and bought an SWR SM-500 to compare against my Demeter HBP-1/Yamaha P-7000S set up and did have both for sale. Ultimately after a couple of hours of back and forth last Friday I decided to stay the original course with the Demeter/Yamaha set up. Loud yes when I want it but it sounds great at any volume.

For us common folk (me) that Crest ST-2 looks very interesting as well in the channel strip variety. I really just wanted decent preamp to use in the high powered situation as well as use in church to front end my bass before sending it off to FOH and IEM world. I think I got a pretty versatile preamp!

 

[MIJ-VI]

Vem? Jag?

Ja. Du.

--------

Supposedly my peoples from frozen forests of the north will be introducing something that will solve my problem shortly... we shall see...

Mmm... Earschplittenloudenboomer ver. 3.0?

 

[JimmyM]

I really like this preamp for a full clean tubey sound. Plus, with the cost per watt ratio as low as now, it will let you biamp your 2 channel poweramp. and drive a modular cab setup like the greenboy fEarful.

But somehow not much love shown for this excellent preamp here on TB

I think it's Fender prejudice partly, and partly that most preamps don't sell well, and partly that people are tightening up their spending and repairing old amps instead of buying new ones. That's a great sounding preamp if you like a tube preamp that sounds tubey. But by and large, this series of Fender amps built around this pre are getting ignored, too.

 

[spencer]

To me it's just a little nerdy, like stfu and play.
The audience can't tell if you just got a new preamplifier or changed your power amp.

And I'm sorry but nobody needs 1000+ watts...

300watts is more than enough when you have a good number of speakers. Such as an 8x10. If you double the power and cut the speakers in half it won't be as loud. If you feel you need 800 watts to push your 2x10 you need to get more air moving with more cones and back off the damn watts.. You should have a pa system

 

[Gearhead43]

I think it's Fender prejudice partly, and partly that most preamps don't sell well, and partly that people are tightening up their spending and repairing old amps instead of buying new ones. That's a great sounding preamp if you like a tube preamp that sounds tubey. But by and large, this series of Fender amps built around this pre are getting ignored, too.

Yeah, but if more people based their purchasing decisions on TONE instead of "what's hot right now" I bet alot more of the Fender TB stuff would be selling.

IMO - that preamp, and the integrated TB series heads are some of the best sounding bass gear out there right now. The **** just sounds great, IMO.

 

[JimmyM]

To me it's just a little nerdy, like stfu and play.
The audience can't tell if you just got a new preamplifier or changed your power amp.

And I'm sorry but nobody needs 1000+ watts...

300watts is more than enough when you have a good number of speakers. Such as an 8x10. If you double the power and cut the speakers in half it won't be as loud. If you feel you need 800 watts to push your 2x10 you need to get more air moving with more cones and back off the damn watts.. You should have a pa system

You have to have something. Might as well get what best reflects your tastes and look into some options before you drop cash.

 

[chadds]

To me it's just a little nerdy, like stfu and play.
The audience can't tell if you just got a new preamplifier or changed your power amp.

And I'm sorry but nobody needs 1000+ watts...

300watts is more than enough when you have a good number of speakers. Such as an 8x10. If you double the power and cut the speakers in half it won't be as loud. If you feel you need 800 watts to push your 2x10 you need to get more air moving with more cones and back off the damn watts.. You should have a pa system

Dude, it's not for loud. It's for clear clean at any volume. If you're going to hit big full bass notes at any speed and nice clear mids and highs then watts give it to you. I can also turn up and play gently which saves my hands for long term use. My gear sounds good with acoustic guitarists in a living room and big on a big stage. Reserve gives you clarity. If I want that break up tone then a 100w to 300w tube head is the ticket. So cranked that's loud and I can understand your point. However saying "nobody needs" is leaving out those of us who do. I keep getting called for gigs and sometimes play too softly.

 

[Scott01]

i heard a head that did 200watts at 2hertz, that was beautiful. Rather than getting more power people should just get heads which have a better response in the low end

You cannot hear below 20hz.

 

[FuzzBoxVoodoo]

+1 chadds
Where did Spencer come from "trolling maybe"??

Dude, it's not for loud. It's for clear clean at any volume. If you're going to hit big full bass notes at any speed and nice clear mids and highs then watts give it to you. I can also turn up and play gently which saves my hands for long term use. My gear sounds good with acoustic guitarists in a living room and big on a big stage. Reserve gives you clarity. If I want that break up tone then a 100w to 300w tube head is the ticket. So cranked that's loud and I can understand your point. However saying "nobody needs" is leaving out those of us who do. I keep getting called for gigs and sometimes play too softly.

 

[spencer]

Dude, it's not for loud. It's for clear clean at any volume. If you're going to hit big full bass notes at any speed and nice clear mids and highs then watts give it to you. I can also turn up and play gently which saves my hands for long term use. My gear sounds good with acoustic guitarists in a living room and big on a big stage. Reserve gives you clarity. If I want that break up tone then a 100w to 300w tube head is the ticket. So cranked that's loud and I can understand your point. However saying "nobody needs" is leaving out those of us who do. I keep getting called for gigs and sometimes play too softly.

Dude I don't believe it, if you have a 4x10 itll still take more power to get LOUD clear notes than a 8x10 will. If you push one speaker to its limit it wont be clear, now if you push two speakers half way you will get more volume than one speaker maxed, and due to it only being pushed halfway itll be clearer.

 

[dannster]

I have been using one of these for the past year or so.
Joe Meek OneQ
Killer pre, I would highly recommend checking one out if you get a chance.

That is one big fistfull of Pretty Pretty! Nice!

 

[MIJ-VI]

I guess if the question is, what am I looking for? I guess the answer would be a 2 rackspace, 2 channel preamp with tube driven eq on each (not just a single 12AX7 on the input for show...), with the second channel having real OD and distortion capabilities, 2 independant FX loops, ability to switch and combine channels with a footswitch, multiple buffered outs etc.

This reads like a description of a modern guitar amp.

Perhaps you could find one which has the desired feature set and ask its maker if they do custom work? (Mesa Boogie?)

I'm no tech, but when it comes to tube amps it can't be too difficult to lower a few EQ center points and a trim an input gain for electric bass.

The output of the amp could then be fed into some sort of 'power soak' to step it down for driving a lead sled.

Just audition a few fancy git rigs (including combos) through your favourite bass cab(s) until you find one that's close to what you want, and then have it tweaked into a 50 watt pre-amp with REAL tube overdrive--the kind which involves power tubes.

 

[Korladis]

You cannot hear below 20hz.

Indeed. One might feel a strong enough vibration at 2hz, but human hearing bottoms out just under 20.