Why are standalone preamplifiers a dying breed?

[Zooberwerx]

Dude, it's not for loud. It's for clear clean at any volume. If you're going to hit big full bass notes at any speed and nice clear mids and highs then watts give it to you. I can also turn up and play gently which saves my hands for long term use. My gear sounds good with acoustic guitarists in a living room and big on a big stage. Reserve gives you clarity. If I want that break up tone then a 100w to 300w tube head is the ticket. So cranked that's loud and I can understand your point. However saying "nobody needs" is leaving out those of us who do. I keep getting called for gigs and sometimes play too softly.

There's a simple reason that more than a handful of us have racked up higher powered amps.....they're plentiful and relatively inexpensive on the second-hand market. I've seen Crest CA-6's / CA-9's going for $350-400 here on TalkBass. I rarely say " wow, what a bargain....errrr, I think I'll pass because I just don't need 1400 watts". Volume controls and attenuators will bring things into check, trust me.

Riis

 

[Jerrold Tiers]

Dunno about anyone else, WE stopped making preamps because they DO NOT SELL.

You can't pay the bills with products that don't sell, most folks simply won't tolerate that. Having lots of products that don't sell hasn't worked out too well for GM...... and it doesn't work out too well in MI either. Making any money in MI is hard enough

Actually, "we" *tolerated* them not selling worth a hoot, but "Loud" did not, the point is the same.

We sold far more of the top line amplifier than we ever did of preamps, and preamps are not a big dollar item.

If you have to make anything that is reasonably simple in china, you need to make several thousand at a time, they won't tolerate orders smaller than that unless the labor content is high. So now you sit on thousands of units for years. NOT!

Game REALLY over.

 

[peterpalmieri]

To me it's just a little nerdy, like stfu and play.
The audience can't tell if you just got a new preamplifier or changed your power amp.

And I'm sorry but nobody needs 1000+ watts...

300watts is more than enough when you have a good number of speakers. Such as an 8x10. If you double the power and cut the speakers in half it won't be as loud. If you feel you need 800 watts to push your 2x10 you need to get more air moving with more cones and back off the damn watts.. You should have a pa system

Come on man

I am neither a guy that uses a pre/power set up nor am I a guy that needs 2000 watts for my gigging. But the fact is that there are people that want or need it and this thread is discussing different types of preamps available for those that do.

There could be a healthy debate about the need for 2000+ watts but if anybody is so set on debating that go ahead and start up a new thread...

 

[KJung]

Come on man

I am neither a guy that uses a pre/power set up nor am I a guy that needs 2000 watts for my gigging. But the fact is that there are people that want or need it and this thread is discussing different types of preamps available for those that do.

There could be a healthy debate about the need for 2000+ watts but if anybody is so set on debating that go ahead and start up a new thread...

+1 Again, judging others' need for power level based on your own experience is a losing game. Volume level needs, type of music, tone goals, cabinet voicing and SPL, etc., etc., etc. all combine to result in VERY different rig needs across players.

TB should outlaw comments about 'how much power is enough' for others' needs based on a given players personal needs.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Dunno about anyone else, WE stopped making preamps because they DO NOT SELL.

You can't pay the bills with products that don't sell, most folks simply won't tolerate that. Having lots of products that don't sell hasn't worked out too well for GM...... and it doesn't work out too well in MI either. Making any money in MI is hard enough

Actually, "we" *tolerated* them not selling worth a hoot, but "Loud" did not, the point is the same.

We sold far more of the top line amplifier than we ever did of preamps, and preamps are not a big dollar item.

If you have to make anything that is reasonably simple in china, you need to make several thousand at a time, they won't tolerate orders smaller than that unless the labor content is high. So now you sit on thousands of units for years. NOT!

Game REALLY over.

I hate it when guys like you throw logic, common sense, industry insight, realistic market dynamics, and accountability into the equation.

Think I'll sit on my SVP-CL pre for a few years, recoup my investment +, and send my dog to college.

Riis

 

[thepontif]

When your margins are tight and you have 3 or 4 entities all trying to make money on a $799.00 retail preamp that's true. The paradigm in general just doesn't work if quality and performance are the most important factors.

Personally, I've felt that the mass market has been dying for years in the music industry. How many people are there in the world anyway? And what percentage buys bass gear? When you're trying to sell huge volumes you have to reach out to everyone you possibly can, whether a pro or not. But most non-pros don't really understand the benefit of a preamp/power amp combination. Features vs. cost will be the bigger driver for them. So if they can get a whole integrated amp for $899.00, why would they spend 2 or three times that on a Pope preamp and a Crest CA-9? When your potential is a professional, or at least a PLAYER, he or she already knows why they need or want your stuff. The market pulls much harder then.

GM folded because they were forced to pay their unions WAY too much and because they built a business on "ether" by putting their focus on the credit market instead of in concrete products like a manufacturing company is supposed to. When you depend on people near the poverty line to buy multiple cars using credit extended to them by heavily leveraged creditors who know they don't need that third SUV but can make the paper work reconcile and sell it to a securities company in a package just to keep your cash flowing you have a doomed business model in the first place.

Damn, that was a long sentence.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Great comments Mike....

For those not familiar here is a link to Mike's site and his preamps....

http://www.michaelpopedesign.com/

 

[SteveC]

It's simple. Heads are MUCH better than in the past combining a nice preamp with lots of power and light weight allowing players to dump their racks. Because of the nature of my gigs I'm able to go a step further and use a combo amp.

 

[SteveC]

Everyone's too damn loud, and everybody needs to turn the hell down!

Finally, someone who agrees with me. I thought I was the only person who thought this.

 

[KJung]

When your margins are tight and you have 3 or 4 entities all trying to make money on a $799.00 retail preamp that's true. The paradigm in general just doesn't work if quality and performance are the most important factors.

Personally, I've felt that the mass market has been dying for years in the music industry. How many people are there in the world anyway? And what percentage buys bass gear? When you're trying to sell huge volumes you have to reach out to everyone you possibly can, whether a pro or not. But most non-pros don't really understand the benefit of a preamp/power amp combination. Features vs. cost will be the bigger driver for them. So if they can get a whole integrated amp for $899.00, why would they spend 2 or three times that on a Pope preamp and a Crest CA-9? When your potential is a professional, or at least a PLAYER, he or she already knows why they need or want your stuff. The market pulls much harder then.

GM folded because they were forced to pay their unions WAY too much and because they built a business on "ether" by putting their focus on the credit market instead of in concrete products like a manufacturing company is supposed to. When you depend on people near the poverty line to buy multiple cars using credit extended to them by heavily leveraged creditors who know they don't need that third SUV but can make the paper work reconcile and sell it to a securities company in a package just to keep your cash flowing you have a doomed business model in the first place.

Damn, that was a long sentence.

In general, +1. However, you also have to take into account a few other things:

1) The quality of mid-priced gear is just simply amazing today compared to what it was even 10 years ago. Back in the day, if you wanted it loud and clean and 'accurate', some sort of pre and PA power amp was the way to go. I had a rig like that in the early 80's. Now, for the vast majority of players, it is just not necessary. There are so many high powered integrated heads with wonderful spec's and tone, that the previous niche of high end pre's and power amps has become a 'micro niche'.

2) PA's.... holy cow the improvement. For the really loud volume stuff, even weekend warriors have PA's that are so much better than we could have dreamed about 20 years ago that it makes your head spin. In-ear quality, monitor quality, everything combines to make the 'big rig' a bit of an anachronism for many.

3) Speakers.... SO much better today than even 10 years ago. More full range while still maintaining relatively good SPL, lightweight, reliable, available. It's simply amazing what you can do with 500 watts and a 60 pound total rig these days.

 

[thepontif]

In general, +1. However, you also have to take into account a few other things:

1) The quality of mid-priced gear is just simply amazing today compared to what it was even 10 years ago. Back in the day, if you wanted it loud and clean and 'accurate', some sort of pre and PA power amp was the way to go. I had a rig like that in the early 80's. Now, for the vast majority of players, it is just not necessary. There are so many high powered integrated heads with wonderful spec's and tone, that the previous niche of high end pre's and power amps has become a 'micro niche'.

2) PA's.... holy cow the improvement. For the really loud volume stuff, even weekend warriors have PA's that are so much better than we could have dreamed about 20 years ago that it makes your head spin. In-ear quality, monitor quality, everything combines to make the 'big rig' a bit of an anachronism for many.

3) Speakers.... SO much better today than even 10 years ago. More full range while still maintaining relatively good SPL, lightweight, reliable, available. It's simply amazing what you can do with 500 watts and a 60 pound total rig these days.

Agreed. My comments were just thoughts. I hadn't tried to think it ALL the way through. You're right that the fact that so much VERY GOOD gear is now affordable and readily available is a huge factor in all of this.

 

[KJung]

Agreed. My comments were just thoughts. I hadn't tried to think it ALL the way through. You're right that the fact that so much VERY GOOD gear is now affordable and readily available is a huge factor in all of this.

+1 Also, IMO the good news for someone like you is that there will always be a market for the uber quality, high end stuff, and as long as you can keep your overhead costs down, the 'mom and pop engineer' type companies can still do quite well!

 

[pablomigraine]

First it sounds like you know exactly what you want, so why not save up and have it built to your specs?

You seem very knowledgable on the subject, you seem to have played just about everything but for some reason don't own any of them, why? If the Ampeg or Aguilar are so great why didn't you just buy one when they were being made? In some ways I underestand how you can be frustrated but on the other hand you only want what is no longer available. Again if any of those are that great find one used....

UHHHHH my day job is REAL ESTATE...... IM BROKE RIGHT NOW... DUHHHHHH!!!!



Seriously tho I'm fairly sure all my needs would be met by an SVP-CL / SVP-BSP combo driving different cabinets (keep the clean on one side, switch in the real grit for some songs... combo for others) but I havent seen a use BSP here in a loooooong time.

I had been happy with an SVT until I fell for this Berg 322 cabinet that is not particularly effecient.
I was forced into the land of pre / power amps and have been pretty happy with a borrowed Yamaha PB-1 as the Alembic that I've used in the studio as a keyboard warmer doesn't have enough range for me for bass.

Just wish i could lease or borrow some pre's for comparrison.

Am hoping that the Sansamp RPM might be versatile enough but the voice in my head says I have to try either a SVP or CL pre-amp at some pont.

The PB-1 is a great little pre. As I said earlier I dont recommend the RPM / RBI... especially for that cabinet. I think any of the Ampeg pres would sing with an HT322. The best combo for that cab is the Eden Navigator IMHO.

I really like this preamp for a full clean tubey sound. Plus, with the cost per watt ratio as low as now, it will let you biamp your 2 channel poweramp. and drive a modular cab setup like the greenboy fEarful.

But somehow not much love shown for this excellent preamp here on TB


Edit: pablomigraine, just for interests sake, why did you leave this one out of the preamps listed in your original post ?

Again, not an exhaustive list.....

To me it's just a little nerdy, like stfu and play.
The audience can't tell if you just got a new preamplifier or changed your power amp.

And I'm sorry but nobody needs 1000+ watts...

300watts is more than enough when you have a good number of speakers. Such as an 8x10. If you double the power and cut the speakers in half it won't be as loud. If you feel you need 800 watts to push your 2x10 you need to get more air moving with more cones and back off the damn watts.. You should have a pa system

Words fail me here......

Dude I don't believe it, if you have a 4x10 itll still take more power to get LOUD clear notes than a 8x10 will. If you push one speaker to its limit it wont be clear, now if you push two speakers half way you will get more volume than one speaker maxed, and due to it only being pushed halfway itll be clearer.

I really hope Fdeck, Billfitmaurice, Passinwind etc arent reading this................

This reads like a description of a modern guitar amp.

Perhaps you could find one which has the desired feature set and ask its maker if they do custom work? (Mesa Boogie?)

I'm no tech, but when it comes to tube amps it can't be too difficult to lower a few EQ center points and a trim an input gain for electric bass.

The output of the amp could then be fed into some sort of 'power soak' to step it down for driving a lead sled.

Just audition a few fancy git rigs (including combos) through your favourite bass cab(s) until you find one that's close to what you want, and then have it tweaked into a 50 watt pre-amp with REAL tube overdrive--the kind which involves power tubes.

That's true!! Ive actually ran a mesa studio preamp in my FX loop. Honestly speaking.... if Aguilar made a 1000 watt version of the AG500 that would do 2ohms..... again... we wouldnt be having this conversation.... I'd love to see that head in a preamp format. They got halfway there with the Aggro... but that unit was just too goofy for too many reasons.

I am honestly considering buying a used AG500 and ripping the output board out and creating my own pre. Imagine that head with 1200 Class AB watts behind it.....

I guess my point in starting this thread is..... I dont like the featherweight heads for several reasons. Whether its 8lbs or 28lbs..... in my case, it's getting racked in a road case with 80lbs worth of other stuff anyway.... that being the case.... If GB can make a 6lb amp that makes 500 watts, why cant they make a 15lb amp that makes 1200? And the Lead Sleds? The only ones I care for at all are the B1500, the DB750 and some of the older ones.

If pre's truly are a dying market.... I think the featherweight amp makers have a lot of work to do before their output sections truly start competing with PA amps in terms of true output and muscle, and I think people would pay good money if they did. A guy I know who plays for a big Swedish metal band carries 5 yes FIVE SVT 5-Pros around.... Mike Kroeger has to carry 3-5 heads, and my buddy Eric has to tote 3 AG500's.

In the meantime, I'll hafta be content searching around for used discontinued items and running seperates......

 

[AMJBASS]

I think that if the PA amp market ever put out a one space rack amp that put out decent power bridged into 4ohms without melting, and without being 20" deep, it would really re-invigorate the bass pre market.

If, for example, Acoustic Image came out with their Clarus+ power module in a rack mountable unit the size of the markbass F1, there would be a lot of cats that would go for a nice one rack space pre like the Pope, and a power amp like that, in a lightweight 2 space rack that would way 20 pounds or so total.

IMO!

That is actually quite a good idea.

 

[David Jayne]

That is actually quite a good idea.

+1. I've had my eyes open for an amp like that for a while.

 

[peterpalmieri]

UHHHHH my day job is REAL ESTATE...... IM BROKE RIGHT NOW... DUHHHHHH!!!!



Seriously tho I'm fairly sure all my needs would be met by an SVP-CL / SVP-BSP combo driving different cabinets (keep the clean on one side, switch in the real grit for some songs... combo for others) but I havent seen a use BSP here in a loooooong time.



The PB-1 is a great little pre. As I said earlier I dont recommend the RPM / RBI... especially for that cabinet. I think any of the Ampeg pres would sing with an HT322. The best combo for that cab is the Eden Navigator IMHO.



Again, not an exhaustive list.....



Words fail me here......



I really hope Fdeck, Billfitmaurice, Passinwind etc arent reading this................



That's true!! Ive actually ran a mesa studio preamp in my FX loop. Honestly speaking.... if Aguilar made a 1000 watt version of the AG500 that would do 2ohms..... again... we wouldnt be having this conversation.... I'd love to see that head in a preamp format. They got halfway there with the Aggro... but that unit was just too goofy for too many reasons.

I am honestly considering buying a used AG500 and ripping the output board out and creating my own pre. Imagine that head with 1200 Class AB watts behind it.....

I guess my point in starting this thread is..... I dont like the featherweight heads for several reasons. Whether its 8lbs or 28lbs..... in my case, it's getting racked in a road case with 80lbs worth of other stuff anyway.... that being the case.... If GB can make a 6lb amp that makes 500 watts, why cant they make a 15lb amp that makes 1200? And the Lead Sleds? The only ones I care for at all are the B1500, the DB750 and some of the older ones.

If pre's truly are a dying market.... I think the featherweight amp makers have a lot of work to do before their output sections truly start competing with PA amps in terms of true output and muscle, and I think people would pay good money if they did. A guy I know who plays for a big Swedish metal band carries 5 yes FIVE SVT 5-Pros around.... Mike Kroeger has to carry 3-5 heads, and my buddy Eric has to tote 3 AG500's.

In the meantime, I'll hafta be content searching around for used discontinued items and running seperates......

Hang in there it took me months to find a used (discontinued) EA VL208 which to me is the holy grail of DB cabinets. Sometimes for whatever reason what is perfect for your needs isn't the big seller.

On a different note coming from a guy that was using a Glockenkland Heart Rock for a few years, it's in the same vein as the B1500 and DB 750. I recently picked up a EA IAMP Pro it does 1200 watts at 4 ohms and is 2 ohms stable and weighs in at 9 lbs. I know it may not be your speed but these amps are coming along...

 

[peterpalmieri]

+1. I've had my eyes open for an amp like that for a while.

+1 I said this earlier Powersoft, they're available through Full compass. High powered, reliable. But not cheap...

 

[JimmyM]

+1 Again, judging others' need for power level based on your own experience is a losing game. Volume level needs, type of music, tone goals, cabinet voicing and SPL, etc., etc., etc. all combine to result in VERY different rig needs across players.

TB should outlaw comments about 'how much power is enough' for others' needs based on a given players personal needs.

Yes, there are doom bands who need 1000w to blow holes in the walls of the 100 seat bars they play at I've gotten more understanding about super high wattage, but mainly because power's cheap. I still think it's more for bragging rights, though. I will say that in a lot of ways I agree with Spencer, especially the part about using 1000w in a cab that can barely take 300, although I'll also say who am I to judge? If people think they need 1000w, ain't hurting me. I'm not close enough to them to damage my hearing

 

[KJung]

Yes, there are doom bands who need 1000w to blow holes in the walls of the 100 seat bars they play at I've gotten more understanding about super high wattage, but mainly because power's cheap. I still think it's more for bragging rights, though. I will say that in a lot of ways I agree with Spencer, especially the part about using 1000w in a cab that can barely take 300, although I'll also say who am I to judge? If people think they need 1000w, ain't hurting me. I'm not close enough to them to damage my hearing

Again, as long as you view wattage primarily in terms of increased volume, you will still feel this way. Going from 500 to 1000 watts into a cabinet that can actually use that power is still only a few extra db's of absolute volume(meaningful but not 'night and day'). It's the open low end, the response, the low distortion, etc. that makes this wonderful for many, and it gets even more noticable with a lower SPL cab.

However, +1, if you continue to view an increase in wattage as a pure volume thing, then it makes a touch less sense.

 

[groove pump]

BSP user here chiming in...

That pre includes one of the crappiest attempts at a compressor ever (ew, just threw up in my mouth a little) and only runs with a single 12ax7, but I absolutely adore it. A little more overall real tubey-ness for both channels along the lines of the SVP-Pro or CL and that thing would be the shizzle forever amen. I also have a BDDI gathering dust in my bag for "just in case", but aside from the exceptional service this piece delivers for me, I actually got a sound man mildly excited at one gig with the signal he was getting from my pre. Points! It's a super flexible preamp that does everything I need.

My reality is that I often have to run without PA help, so 1,400 watts and a pair of 2x10's gets my sound out there just fine without ever needing to lean on that master. I'm also happy to mention that my sound is much better with my amp bridged than when running my cabs with only one side of it. The economics of this rig were fantastic for poor ol' me as well, thanks to the used market, and the tone in the clean channel of the pre makes it seem as though the sparse eq (bass, mid, treble) is sometimes three knobs too many. Small show? One cab=smaller rig... Shazam!

Blah blah blah... I know. Fortunately for me, I don't need to hustle a rig around NYC or even Boston, though I'm glad that there is finally gear that truly gets it done in sound and portability for the dedicated players that need that setup. I think that this elephant in the living room has finally been fed and watered.

If the preamp market is dwindling, well I believe it. These things are so good that when anyone gets a pre that they like (hellooooo!), I don't know why they'd get rid of it or shop for anymore of them. I'm way beyond the honeymoon with my present gig-rig and I still crack a smile at our shows when I turn this stuff up and get the groove-a-pumpin' (add enough of the governator's Hans and Franz accent to cheer yourself).

My Dad likes to make an observation on owning cars. The thing about buying a Rolls Royce? You only need to get one.